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Thread: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

  1. #251
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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    What are you talking about, everyone does and has loved Battier for a long time. He's long been regarded as an elite defender, glue guy, and difference maker.
    Then I didn't understand what you meant by difference maker, and am even more confused as what you are asking for. As you said he is a glue guy. He does one or two things extremely well, but it would take a lot more than Battier to make a difference with our bench.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    In the same post you said Barea only had 2 games out of 6 where he was important and that Barea was one of 6 difference makers. It can't be both.

    For what it's worth, Barea was the 7th most used player in the Mavs/Lakers sweep and the 6th most used player in the Mavs/Heat game. The only difference between the two was that Peja Stojakovic didn't really play in the Finals. So they had 7 guys, and Stevenson was the 8th player barely trailiing Barea for 7th and 6th most minutes.

    They had a deep bench. You don't think having a deep bench saved the oldest team in the NBA some energy so they could play longer minutes in the Finals?
    It can be both, he was their 6th best player, he made a difference in two games, making him a difference maker. If your 6th best player made a difference in 100% of games, he wouldn't be your 6th best player, he'd probably be your first or second. You could argue no, he was their 7th best player because Deshawn or Peja were starting over him, but really Deshawn was being used like Inferno used to get used for the Nuggets -- he'd start, but only play around 15 minutes.

  3. #253
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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    Barea game 1 (L) 1-8 in 18 minutes
    Barea game 2 (W) 2-7 in 14 minutes
    Barea game 3 (L) 2-8 in 19 minutes
    Barea game 4 (W) 3-9 in 22 minutes
    Barea game 5 (W) 6-11 in 26 minutes
    Barea game 6 (W) 7-12 in 30 minutes
    He also had 3, 1, 1, 4, 5 and 5 assists.

    Regardless of his number, he was crucial in that game 5. He was a big part of why they won. Tyson was as well. They were their difference makers.

    The thing with difference makers of that kind is quite simple, though. They become difference makers propos. That means that they weren't always difference makers. Their play made them difference makers. They stepped up on that role. That's exactly what Barea did.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Anyway, this is getting awfully specific and I'm not sure any of you are arguing that your 7-15 guys are the ones you need to worry about.

    My point is your top 3-6 players are who matter. Is someone really arguing against that, or are you trying to find possibly, maybe, arguably one circumstance where it could be viewed that it wasn't the case...even if they were deep, do people describe them as the deepest? Did they win because they had Tyson, JET, Kidd, and Dirk, or because they were the deepest team in the entire league?
    Last edited by Dece; 12-18-2012 at 09:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Signing a player that was drafted five years ago and has not done anything since been drafted to a long term deal is a bad decision, trading a good backup PG with value for a career backup center and giving that player a long term deal is a bad decision.
    I'm going to quote you Vnzla word for word here. This is what you said directly AFTER the Mahinmi trade, AFTER the Green signing, and AFTER the DJ singing - "Im loving our front office, this is what a front office is supposed to do."

    Don't act like you saw our bench problems written all over the wall b/c you were all over the bandwagon sir

    http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthre...light=augustin

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  7. #256
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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    Anyway, this is getting awfully specific and I'm not sure any of you are arguing that your 7-15 guys are the ones you need to worry about.

    My point is your top 3-6 players are who matter. Is someone really arguing against that, or are you trying to find possibly, maybe, arguably one circumstance where it could be viewed that it wasn't the case...even if they were deep, do people describe them as the deepest? Did they win because they had Tyson, JET, Kidd, and Dirk, or because they were the deepest team in the entire league?
    They win because they had a team that worked. And that team included everyone. Yes, Tyson, Jet, Kidd and Dirk were the most important players in their run. But they don't win the championship without Peja Stojakovic going 11 - 21 from 3 in the Lakers series. They don't win without Barea killing teams on the PnR (22-8 against the Lakers, 21, 11 and 14 against OKC). They don't win without Stevenson getting in LeBron's face. They don't win without Brendan Haywood averaging 1.0 block per game in their playoff run and protecting the rim when Tyson was on the bench.

    The 10-11 Mavs had 9 guys getting over 15 MPG in the playoffs. 9!

    Your 3-6 limit seems quite arbitrary. Sometimes, a team has more than one difference makers. I'm not saying that the 10-15 players matter in the playoffs. They don't, unless you are seriously banged up (and in that case you aren't winning anything anyway).

    But sometimes it's quite good be 8 or 9 man deep.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by purdue101 View Post
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    I'm going to quote you Vnzla word for word here. This is what you said directly AFTER the Mahinmi trade, AFTER the Green signing, and AFTER the DJ singing - "Im loving our front office, this is what a front office is supposed to do."

    Don't act like you saw our bench problems written all over the wall b/c you were all over the bandwagon sir

    http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthre...light=augustin
    I already explained my comments and even made fun of myself for it but of course you have not seen any of that, funny that the people that thanked you know this but still look the other way, keep trying to prove me wrong though.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I already explained my comments and even made fun of myself for it but of course you have not seen any of that, funny that the people that thanked you know this but still look the other way, keep trying to prove me wrong though.
    Know what? That you will never accept it when you're wrong? We do know that.

    Just look at the "DJ being shopped" thread. You started complaing about our "crappy" contracts. I presented you with data backing up that our contracts are actually at market value and in some cases even below market value.

    And what did you do? You turned a blind eye. And that's something that every poster that has ever got in an argument with you is well aware of.

    You will never admit it when you're wrong. Ever.

    Not everyone is like that, though.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Know what? That you will never accept it when you're wrong? We do know that.

    Just look at the "DJ being shopped" thread. You started complaing about our "crappy" contracts. I presented you with data backing up that our contracts are actually at market value and in some cases even below market value.

    And what did you do? You turned a blind eye. And that's something that every poster that has ever got in an argument with you is well aware of.

    You will never admit it when you're wrong. Ever.

    Not everyone is like that, though.
    "Market value" stop it.




    Note that I'm not responding to anything you post after this so don't waste your time.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Note that I'm not responding to anything you post after this so don't waste your time.
    I guess that nothing is going to change then

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  13. #261
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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    Anyway, this is getting awfully specific and I'm not sure any of you are arguing that your 7-15 guys are the ones you need to worry about.

    My point is your top 3-6 players are who matter. Is someone really arguing against that, or are you trying to find possibly, maybe, arguably one circumstance where it could be viewed that it wasn't the case...even if they were deep, do people describe them as the deepest? Did they win because they had Tyson, JET, Kidd, and Dirk, or because they were the deepest team in the entire league?
    So what are you complaining about? We had 5 people who were downright dominant when played together last year. We retained the two needing new contracts and worked on the bench. IE the thing that apparently doesn't matter much to you.

    Btw here's some stats to chew on.

    http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusmi...&split=9&team=

    The only 5 man groups in last year's playoffs that received extended minutes and performed at a better per minute rate than the Pacers were the best units for the Spurs, Celtics, and Thunder. Our starting 5 has amazing synergy, as long as Danny Granger is in the lineup.

    And as far as two man combinations go, Granger/West has about the same impact as LeBron/Wade for our team:

    http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusmi...&split=9&team=

    Now, obviously you need to take the two man stats with a spoonful of salt, since Granger and West probably played over 70% of their time as part of the starting lineup, and the Heat stars play with combinations of all of their players. But the Heat have a series of supporting players who all fill the same niche. If one isn't hot that night, they just plug in the next guy and move on. And the Pacers accumulated these stats over a winning series and a losing one. The Heat built it up over 4 winning series.

    Make no mistake, if we keep our starting 5 and fix the bench so it doesn't bleed leads we will be a favorite for the title.
    Last edited by aamcguy; 12-19-2012 at 12:26 AM.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I already explained my comments and even made fun of myself for it but of course you have not seen any of that, funny that the people that thanked you know this but still look the other way, keep trying to prove me wrong though.
    You can't explain away a blatant contradiction unless it begins with "my mistake."

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  17. #263
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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by billbradley View Post
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    You can't explain away a blatant contradiction unless it begins with "my mistake."
    Unless you are a waffle maker.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by billbradley View Post
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    You can't explain away a blatant contradiction unless it begins with "my mistake."
    I have no reasons to explain my point again, I won't explained to you Nuntious or whoever is looking to have some stupid argument.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    So what are you complaining about? We had 5 people who were downright dominant when played together last year. We retained the two needing new contracts and worked on the bench. IE the thing that apparently doesn't matter much to you.

    Btw here's some stats to chew on.

    http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusmi...&split=9&team=

    The only 5 man groups in last year's playoffs that received extended minutes and performed at a better per minute rate than the Pacers were the best units for the Spurs, Celtics, and Thunder. Our starting 5 has amazing synergy, as long as Danny Granger is in the lineup.

    And as far as two man combinations go, Granger/West has about the same impact as LeBron/Wade for our team:

    http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusmi...&split=9&team=

    Now, obviously you need to take the two man stats with a spoonful of salt, since Granger and West probably played over 70% of their time as part of the starting lineup, and the Heat stars play with combinations of all of their players. But the Heat have a series of supporting players who all fill the same niche. If one isn't hot that night, they just plug in the next guy and move on. And the Pacers accumulated these stats over a winning series and a losing one. The Heat built it up over 4 winning series.

    Make no mistake, if we keep our starting 5 and fix the bench so it doesn't bleed leads we will be a favorite for the title.
    Lol

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Lol
    Thanks for contributing to the conversation.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I won't explained to you Nuntious or whoever is looking to have some stupid argument.
    Not that you'll read it as you said but I have to say this.

    I'm not looking to start an argument. I really am not. I just hate it when I see people not admitting that they are wrong. We are human. We are wrong all the time. Just admit and move on with your life.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I have no reasons to explain my point again,
    When have you ever explained it?

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