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Thread: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparhawk View Post
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    But if the Pacers continue to hover around the 0.500 mark come trade deadline, they should DEFINITELY move West.

    I think the last time the Pacers actually sold high on someone was DD. That got Jermaine O'neal. That worked out quite well in the beginning (no one could know he was going to have knee issues). It would be nice to sell high for once instead of waiting till a player has no value (ie. Tinsley and just about every player since).
    But you know what they didn't do? They didn't trade Dale in 1999. They did make that AWESOME trade to move Antonio while he "still had value" (ie, headed to a future AS game) for the great Bender pick, and losing Tony might have been the difference between winning and losing the 2000 Finals.

    Dale was finally moved when the team was already losing - Rik, Jax and Mullin. And Dale had postured about money and got himself in a bit of bind with his agent that forced things along a bit more than he might have wanted. Had Rik stayed then they would have spent a bit more to keep Jax, not traded Dale and would have taken another shot at it. And they were old.

    You don't bail on value right when your in-prime team is starting it's 4-5 year run. That would be akin to trading Dale or Reggie in 1996 or 97. And at the time many posters here at PD would have backed that view given the disappointment of not repeating the ECF runs. In fact they DID TRADE VALUE in 1997 to get a young player coming up - Jax for Rose. This was a big part of why they failed in 1997, and they recognized that when they traded to bring Jax back.



    So let's slow the roll on the whole "obviously you trade while a guy has value, it's the smart move". It hasn't been, not when the core is all young and in place. You don't panic in a weird year or a weird 2-3 months. You must have vision for the situation that's only just been assembled in the last year.

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    But you know what they didn't do? They didn't trade Dale in 1999. They did make that AWESOME trade to move Antonio while he "still had value" (ie, headed to a future AS game) for the great Bender pick, and losing Tony might have been the difference between winning and losing the 2000 Finals.

    Dale was finally moved when the team was already losing - Rik, Jax and Mullin. And Dale had postured about money and got himself in a bit of bind with his agent that forced things along a bit more than he might have wanted. Had Rik stayed then they would have spent a bit more to keep Jax, not traded Dale and would have taken another shot at it. And they were old.

    You don't bail on value right when your in-prime team is starting it's 4-5 year run. That would be akin to trading Dale or Reggie in 1996 or 97. And at the time many posters here at PD would have backed that view given the disappointment of not repeating the ECF runs. In fact they DID TRADE VALUE in 1997 to get a young player coming up - Jax for Rose. This was a big part of why they failed in 1997, and they recognized that when they traded to bring Jax back.



    So let's slow the roll on the whole "obviously you trade while a guy has value, it's the smart move". It hasn't been, not when the core is all young and in place. You don't panic in a weird year or a weird 2-3 months. You must have vision for the situation that's only just been assembled in the last year.
    I know this is a trade topic, hence why people are talking about trades.

    But I'll never understand the fascination with trading David, for a couple of reasons:

    1. Just because he has value to other teams, doesn't mean we'll get anything of value in return.
    2. Obviously, people forget what this team looked like before he got here. David has been responsible for a massive growth among these players, and has drawn toughness and professionalism out of them. Think about Lance/Paul, hell, even Danny was clearly invigorated with having West around.

    All in all, I think it's a stretch to say, "No way David comes back." or "He has no interest in re-signing." Based on what? At this point he's a leader on a team with top 3 seed aspirations and a Championship run in mind. If Danny's back, how many games does he swing? 4? 5? This team could be right up at the top of the league, and he knows that.

    My guess is the Pacers only moves before the deadline will be to offer cap relief. I wouldn't be stunned to see them try to package Tyler/DJ for a pick or some bench scoring (Is Morrow available/inexpensive?), but I would be surprised to see any major move involving Paul/David/Roy/Danny/George.

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    I'm with Naptown_Seth and Dere2K3 on this one. I have to wonder what makes some of you think that West would not return to the Pacers, and why some people are so eager to rid the team of its best contributor. Just makes no sense to me.

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    I'm with Naptown_Seth and Dere2K3 on this one. I have to wonder what makes some of you think that West would not return to the Pacers, and why some people are so eager to rid the team of its best contributor. Just makes no sense to me.
    He probably won't return cause he'll want too much. Simple as that. And probably want too many years.

    Of course he might not, but the way he's playing this year, I'm sure he'll want more than $10M/season. If that is the case, I'd rather just go after Josh Smith.
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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparhawk View Post
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    He probably won't return cause he'll want too much. Simple as that. And probably want too many years.

    Of course he might not, but the way he's playing this year, I'm sure he'll want more than $10M/season. If that is the case, I'd rather just go after Josh Smith.
    That's a pipe-dream. I really don't think J-Smoove would want to play here. I could see the pacers making a run at Paul Milsap however. He's used to playing in a smaller market, and I think he would welcome the opportunity to go somewhere and not have to look over his shoulder at a young player coming for his spot from the bench.

    And I don't think ppl WANT West to leave at all, but with us not knowing what we're going to have when Danny returns, many want to improve other parts of the team and feel the most realistic way to do so is to trade the one player that most every team could use in West.
    Last edited by Ace E.Anderson; 12-12-2012 at 11:25 AM.

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Tyler unwatchable? I enjoy watching him.

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Tyler unwatchable? I enjoy watching him.
    Well, if you enjoy watching train wrecks, then I'll agree. However, I don't think you meant that, so I disagree with you there. He's not a guy you pay money to go watch play basketball. I'd rather pay money to go watch guys play at the local YMCA.
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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    That's a pipe-dream. I really don't think J-Smooth would want to play here. I could see the pacers making a run at Paul Milsap however. He's used to playing in a smaller market, and I think he would welcome the opportunity to go somewhere and not have to look over his shoulder at a young player coming for his spot from the bench.

    And I don't think ppl WANT West to leave at all, but with us not knowing what we're going to have when Danny returns, many want to improve other parts of the team and feel the most realistic way to do so is to trade the one player that most every team could use in West.
    I was just saying West will want more than $10M/yr the way he's playing, and if that is the case, I'd rather make a run at JSmoove.
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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    I just think until we relaly know what Danny's knee situation is, TPTB are going to play it close to the vest. I don't really see us doing anything. You only take on more salary, like you would be in some of these scenarios, if you think Danny is coming back strong.

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Why trade West? You resign him because right now the team is in "win-now" mode with all the key pieces in place and hitting their primes. You are trying to win over the next 3-4 years with Hill-Paul-Danny-West-Roy, period. They can maintain a decent 3 deep regular minutes bench with the remaining money and stay cheap (ie, Sam Young deals, rookies) for the rest of the bench.

    You don't need cap space anymore. You got the guys you needed to get with the cap space (Hill, West). Those are the two guys doing the most to help the team win and coming through with the most clutch play. If you move them you might as well punt the entire ship because you are going to be an overpaid, underwinning team with zero trade assets. You won't even be in a good rebuild position.




    DJ + Hans for Miller would seem to make some sense for Denver if they really do have concerns for cap space. They might get a better deal but I don't think that's certain. They are at 47m with just Iggy, Lawson, Gallinari and McGee. W Chandler and Koufos takes that to 57m, so that's their team and that's without Brewer being resigned. They can't really afford to keep Miller (or one of those other guys instead).


    And even if that doesn't pan out, the level of expiring money with DJ and Hans is enough to tempt a lot of teams that want to start thinking about savings. OTOH the Pacers need to apply some of that savings to their own cap so it might be smarter to trade down a bit in salary rather than trying for a 1 to 1 dollar swap, and Miller's $5m fits that view well. For the Pacers this deal makes a ton of sense, and for the Nuggets they can't really take back an actual player for Miller. They need to be in the market for a draft pick, and a pick at 18-22 might not be so bad if Miller is the difference maker the team needs.
    "Win now mode"? too bad they are not winning now, I also don't understand your hitting their prime talk, do you think players are in their primes forever?

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    I'm with Naptown_Seth and Dere2K3 on this one. I have to wonder what makes some of you think that West would not return to the Pacers, and why some people are so eager to rid the team of its best contributor. Just makes no sense to me.

    In answer to the question Why wouldn't DWest return.

    1) Because he wants more money than the Pacers can offer. Pacers can't give what they don't have, nor is Herb willing to go into LT Land.

    2) He wants to go to another team he FEELS has a better chance of winning a Championship. He's not getting younger and feels he wants a REAL chance at getting a ring.

    The cost of keeping DWest could be a prime reason the Pacers trade him at the tradeline. They trade him for a young player/players and a pick feeling they still have enough to compete. JMOAA

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    I think people that assume West is going to leave after this offseason are doing so based on a lot of guesswork and very little real evidence.

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    In answer to the question Why wouldn't DWest return.

    1) Because he wants more money than the Pacers can offer. Pacers can't give what they don't have, nor is Herb willing to go into LT Land.

    2) He wants to go to another team he FEELS has a better chance of winning a Championship. He's not getting younger and feels he wants a REAL chance at getting a ring.
    I can't think of many teams out there that can conceivably contend for a championship next year and have the cap space to add a $10 million contract in the offseason. This might not be the best place to get paid or the best chance to win it all, but it's a pretty solid mix of both - perhaps the best option there is.

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
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    I can't think of many teams out there that can conceivably contend for a championship next year and have the cap space to add a $10 million contract in the offseason. This might not be the best place to get paid or the best chance to win it all, but it's a pretty solid mix of both - perhaps the best option there is.
    The Spurs have at least $10 mil coming off the books this season (Stephen Jackson expiring)

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Thank you Seth. I'm very against trading West...that's all else I'm gonna say on this topic. We ll see what happens at the deadline.

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparhawk View Post
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    Well, if you enjoy watching train wrecks, then I'll agree. However, I don't think you meant that, so I disagree with you there. He's not a guy you pay money to go watch play basketball. I'd rather pay money to go watch guys play at the local YMCA.
    In that case, FYI, it's $75 at the door to go watch the rec league game tomorrow, I'll be outside the front door collecting the cash. Please, no checks/credit cards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    In answer to the question Why wouldn't DWest return.

    1) Because he wants more money than the Pacers can offer. Pacers can't give what they don't have, nor is Herb willing to go into LT Land.

    2) He wants to go to another team he FEELS has a better chance of winning a Championship. He's not getting younger and feels he wants a REAL chance at getting a ring.

    The cost of keeping DWest could be a prime reason the Pacers trade him at the tradeline. They trade him for a young player/players and a pick feeling they still have enough to compete. JMOAA
    Those are fair points, but...

    1) We don't know how much he wants. Indy has $49M on the books for next season, leaving them with about $20M to replace: West, Augustin, Sam, Pendy, Ben.
    You're telling me you think David turns down a 4 year/$40M deal to play with Roy, Paul, G3, and likely Danny? The team could comfortably offer him $10-$12M/year, which is at the very least competitive with what any other team will offer.

    2) How do we know he considers Indiana a "FAKE" chance at getting a ring? He happened to play on a team that was 6 quarters from beating the eventual champions. A team that overcame the lockout and terrible production from the 1 (Hill/DC) and 2 (Paul/DJones) to hang with Miami.

    It just seems that a lot of assumptions are being made about how David feels about this team, his compensation, and the teams willingness to sign him long term.

    I truly expect to see West and PG join Hibbert and Hill as guys with long-term deals, and hopefully Danny is healthy enough to warrant one.

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    The Spurs have at least $10 mil coming off the books this season (Stephen Jackson expiring)
    But if they resign Manu they don't have 10m in cap room. They are at 70m this year, so Jack's 10m only gets you back to 60m, not counting raises.



    Vnzla, I know YOU don't think this situation is good. You dislike every player on the roster, especially Danny.

    But for the rest of PN I think you look at the following and feel like "in their prime" is a great description of the core...
    PG Hill 26
    SG Paul 22
    SF Danny 29
    PF West 32
    C Roy 26

    SG Green 27
    SF Young 27
    PF/C Mahinmi 26

    West might be at the edge of his range, though his play this year shows full recovery of his game and good health which leads me to believe that 3-4 more years of a level in this range or just slightly lower is very possible. Every other guy is older than "rookie green" and just at the edge of that great 26-34 years old window of prime play: old enough to know the game, young enough to execute.

    It's probably the largest possible window of assembled talent you could get, minus hitting the lottery for a top 3 pick 3-4 years in a row and not missing on any of those picks (see OKC and basically no one else).

    6 of the 8 guys are right in the 26-30 window, one is younger than that even, and the other is your classic VET LEADER.

    Look at the 1998 Pacers who were about to go on a 3 year run at the title (minus Jordan, 4pt play, Shaq/Kobe).
    Jax 32
    Reggie 32
    McKey 31
    Dale 28
    Rik 31

    Best 25
    Rose 25
    Mullin 34
    Tony 29

    Only 4 of 9 were below 30 and only 2 were at the beginning of their "prime" window. They'd just missed the playoffs after being knocked out in round 1 the prior season. So the Vnzla plan is "dump all these guys who aren't in their prime", which would have been dumb.


    If this team is moving West, then that means that they don't think this core group can win games and you might as well move every single guy except Paul...a group you only just finished assembling last season (ignoring the bench change). A group that's being led by a guy in his first HC job who is still unproven himself.

    You don't punt on that. That's a panic move. This stopped being a rebuild when they traded for Hill and signed West, and then even more so when they paid Roy and Hill. And frankly if Roy was scoring at the rate he did just last year, then he'd be worth the deal given how his defense has been.

    I'm sick of people treating 67 degrees the same as freezing, the old "if you aren't #1 you are #last" attitude. The offense has been starting to sputter to life and it's not even Xmas. Apart from DJ things aren't way off kilter because we've seen Roy get into mind funks based on pressure and we know he can get out of them.

    If you fix BU point guard and get Roy making normal shots then this team is rolling and has every reason in the world to think it could repeat that output for another 4-5 years. By then West will be wrapping up and Danny will only have a couple of more years, but then they will have West coming off the books and maybe Danny as well and would be able to retool with Paul-Hill-Roy wrapping up another 3-4 years as the vets.

    That's a sound 7-9 year plan.

    Giving up the top piece you have and the team's best leader in order to get a draft pick for some kind of 2nd generation rebuild? That makes no sense at all.

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Derek2k3 View Post
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    You're telling me you think David turns down a 4 year/$40M deal to play with Roy, Paul, G3, and likely Danny? The team could comfortably offer him $10-$12M/year, which is at the very least competitive with what any other team will offer.
    4/$40M and I think vnzla and a few others here

    Even I would think 4 years is a little long for a guaranteed contract at that level, and I like David a lot.
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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?



    Seth,

    My golf clapping friends agree with you 100%.

    PG2
    "Your course, your path, is not going to be like mine," West says. "Everybody is not called to be a multimillionaire. Everybody's not called to be the president. Whatever your best work is, you do it. Do it well. … You cease your own greatness when you aspire to be someone else."

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparhawk View Post
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    Well, if you enjoy watching train wrecks, then I'll agree. However, I don't think you meant that, so I disagree with you there. He's not a guy you pay money to go watch play basketball. I'd rather pay money to go watch guys play at the local YMCA.
    First let me say that in re-reading my response that started with quoting you, I sounded a lot snottier about it than my actual reaction to your particular post/comments.

    Second of all, I definitely agree with you here. And UB loves defense and fundamentals, two items that are not Tyler strengths. He does not rotate well on team defense and hasn't set a clean pick or screen the entire time he's been there. He has no low post moves at all, does not display good balance or footwork in traffic, and in many ways looks stiff and untrained.

    We all love effort, but to me West or Paul are putting out just as much effort and making it look a lot easier because they are so much smoother. In the OKC game West got PnR switched onto Westbrook and he and Paul seemlessly unswitched it without missing a beat or giving up space. They were fluid and coordinated which made it appear almost as if nothing had happened. So this isn't just about good handles or a fancy crossover, it's about floor spacing and coverage too.

    It definitely carries the air of "YMCA" to it.

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    4/$40M and I think vnzla and a few others here

    Even I would think 4 years is a little long for a guaranteed contract at that level, and I like David a lot.
    I think it could work if it isn't a normal 4 year contract. Instead of the money increasing every year do the opposite where he gets paid the most in year one, then decrease over time.

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    I think it could work if it isn't a normal 4 year contract. Instead of the money increasing every year do the opposite where he gets paid the most in year one, then decrease over time.
    Even at that you are talking probably $8M in the 4th year (granted, not so much in future money, but still a lot for the wear and tear on him by nthen) and a pretty hefty increase next year to allow the annual decreases to average 4/$40M. I suspect that won't unload the bullets.
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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    But if they resign Manu they don't have 10m in cap room. They are at 70m this year, so Jack's 10m only gets you back to 60m, not counting raises.



    Vnzla, I know YOU don't think this situation is good. You dislike every player on the roster, especially Danny.

    But for the rest of PN I think you look at the following and feel like "in their prime" is a great description of the core...
    PG Hill 26
    SG Paul 22
    SF Danny 29
    PF West 32
    C Roy 26

    SG Green 27
    SF Young 27
    PF/C Mahinmi 26

    West might be at the edge of his range, though his play this year shows full recovery of his game and good health which leads me to believe that 3-4 more years of a level in this range or just slightly lower is very possible. Every other guy is older than "rookie green" and just at the edge of that great 26-34 years old window of prime play: old enough to know the game, young enough to execute.

    It's probably the largest possible window of assembled talent you could get, minus hitting the lottery for a top 3 pick 3-4 years in a row and not missing on any of those picks (see OKC and basically no one else).

    6 of the 8 guys are right in the 26-30 window, one is younger than that even, and the other is your classic VET LEADER.

    Look at the 1998 Pacers who were about to go on a 3 year run at the title (minus Jordan, 4pt play, Shaq/Kobe).
    Jax 32
    Reggie 32
    McKey 31
    Dale 28
    Rik 31

    Best 25
    Rose 25
    Mullin 34
    Tony 29

    Only 4 of 9 were below 30 and only 2 were at the beginning of their "prime" window. They'd just missed the playoffs after being knocked out in round 1 the prior season. So the Vnzla plan is "dump all these guys who aren't in their prime", which would have been dumb.


    If this team is moving West, then that means that they don't think this core group can win games and you might as well move every single guy except Paul...a group you only just finished assembling last season (ignoring the bench change). A group that's being led by a guy in his first HC job who is still unproven himself.

    You don't punt on that. That's a panic move. This stopped being a rebuild when they traded for Hill and signed West, and then even more so when they paid Roy and Hill. And frankly if Roy was scoring at the rate he did just last year, then he'd be worth the deal given how his defense has been.

    I'm sick of people treating 67 degrees the same as freezing, the old "if you aren't #1 you are #last" attitude. The offense has been starting to sputter to life and it's not even Xmas. Apart from DJ things aren't way off kilter because we've seen Roy get into mind funks based on pressure and we know he can get out of them.

    If you fix BU point guard and get Roy making normal shots then this team is rolling and has every reason in the world to think it could repeat that output for another 4-5 years. By then West will be wrapping up and Danny will only have a couple of more years, but then they will have West coming off the books and maybe Danny as well and would be able to retool with Paul-Hill-Roy wrapping up another 3-4 years as the vets.

    That's a sound 7-9 year plan.

    Giving up the top piece you have and the team's best leader in order to get a draft pick for some kind of 2nd generation rebuild? That makes no sense at all.
    So according to you players primes are from the age of 22 until they are close to 40 ok then keep believing that, and you are wrong I don't hate the players stop with that bs, just because I don't think that they are competing for a championship like you does not mean that I hate them, I just don't use the blue and gold glasses like some people....

  35. #49
    DIET COKE! Trader Joe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    I said if we were at .500 give or take a game after 21 games without Danny, I'd be happy. There's no reason not to be. Are we a contender with Danny right away? No, probably not, are we at least what we were last year? I think so. So I don't see what the issue is on that front. I think we all recognized we still needed another piece, and I think once Dnany is back that still hols true, assuming we know Danny is going to be healthy then yes we should be looking, but I don't know if they know that Danny is going to be healthy yet.

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  36. #50
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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    I think a player's "prime" is probably on average from 28 to 34. If it's not then I guess Lebron is sort of screwed.

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