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Thread: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Even at that you are talking probably $8M in the 4th year (granted, not so much in future money, but still a lot for the wear and tear on him by nthen) and a pretty hefty increase next year to allow the annual decreases to average 4/$40M. I suspect that won't unload the bullets.
    Yeah, I completely understand. I really doubt the West would get any offer for more than 3 years. He is just at that age where teams stop looking at you as a long term answer, but a short term one. So I don't think we really need to worry about 4 guaranteed years. We could probably get away with the last year being a team option, and flatten out the pay increase/decrease some.
    Last edited by Eleazar; 12-12-2012 at 02:45 PM.

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    I think you offer West 3 yrs/24 million and hope that no team is going to go so far over that as to make it worth West to move. I would consider going 3 yrs/30 million, but I wouldn't be thrilled about it. I wouldn't give him a guaranteed 4th year under any circumstances right now. I would give him a team option though for a 4th year if that would make him feel better, especially if he is confident he will continue to play well.

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    If they were to shut this down. They would trade Roy and Danny and let West walk. Not resign Tyler and Augustin and let Hill and Paul be the only bright spot and lottery it up for a few seasons. Then when Hill and Paul are in their "prime" still they will have young lottery pieces to really challenge.

    Its a 4 year window probably that will result in us losing George (inflated numbers on a lottery team), a botched lottery pick, and injuries. Or we can rearrange our bench and hope that Roy is in a slump, Danny can comeback, and George be a consistent scorer.

    Either way we are at the start of this not the end. So quit trying to pitch that it is dooms day 1/4 of the way into the season. Get Real!!!!

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    I don't see who's lining up to give D West 4 years 40 plus million, maybe there is, I don't know. I think its like anything else, its not sign David West at all costs, but 3 years at 30 plus million sounds reasonable. His game isn't predicated on traditional athleticism, I could easily see him playing to that level through that contract. You can still take a run at Milsap and Josh Smith, but in a reasonable way. If someone is offering 4 years 50 million, let him go, but I don't see it. The other thing to consider is who fills his position.... So back to the point of primes, you waste Danny's prime by not having a viable PF or making him play PF, that will injure him. So ya, I guess we'll see what his market value is... I would have never dreamed Roy's was a max contract, so who knows.

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    If they were to shut this down. They would trade Roy and Danny and let West walk. Not resign Tyler and Augustin and let Hill and Paul be the only bright spot and lottery it up for a few seasons. Then when Hill and Paul are in their "prime" still they will have young lottery pieces to really challenge.

    Its a 4 year window probably that will result in us losing George (inflated numbers on a lottery team), a botched lottery pick, and injuries. Or we can rearrange our bench and hope that Roy is in a slump, Danny can comeback, and George be a consistent scorer.

    Either way we are at the start of this not the end. So quit trying to pitch that it is dooms day 1/4 of the way into the season. Get Real!!!!
    Bad teams are always constantly rebuilding. Good teams are constantly reloading. The fan base is almost gone. Another rebuild will result in the Pacers playing elsewhere (Seattle?) ...

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    I think a player's "prime" is probably on average from 28 to 34. If it's not then I guess Lebron is sort of screwed.
    Great players primes are from about 26/27 to 34, regular player primes are from 26 to 30/31, Seth thinks everybody is in their prime on the Pacers, from the 22 years old guy to the 33 years old guy, I want to know what he is drinking.

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    But for the rest of PN I think you look at the following and feel like "in their prime" is a great description of the core...
    PG Hill 26
    SG Paul 22
    SF Danny 29
    PF West 32
    C Roy 26

    SG Green 27
    SF Young 27
    PF/C Mahinmi 26

    West might be at the edge of his range, though his play this year shows full recovery of his game and good health which leads me to believe that 3-4 more years of a level in this range or just slightly lower is very possible. Every other guy is older than "rookie green" and just at the edge of that great 26-34 years old window of prime play: old enough to know the game, young enough to execute.

    It's probably the largest possible window of assembled talent you could get, minus hitting the lottery for a top 3 pick 3-4 years in a row and not missing on any of those picks (see OKC and basically no one else).

    6 of the 8 guys are right in the 26-30 window, one is younger than that even, and the other is your classic VET LEADER.

    Look at the 1998 Pacers who were about to go on a 3 year run at the title (minus Jordan, 4pt play, Shaq/Kobe).
    Jax 32
    Reggie 32
    McKey 31
    Dale 28
    Rik 31

    Best 25
    Rose 25
    Mullin 34
    Tony 29

    Only 4 of 9 were below 30 and only 2 were at the beginning of their "prime" window. They'd just missed the playoffs after being knocked out in round 1 the prior season. So the Vnzla plan is "dump all these guys who aren't in their prime", which would have been dumb.
    There were a couple big differences between the 90's team and this team. The first is that the 90's team had the pieces to be able to slowly take over for the veterans as they aged. In 96-97, Jalen only averaged 18 minutes. By the third year of that 3 year run, he was leading the team in minutes. Missing the playoffs allowed the Pacers to take Croshere in the lottery, and by year 3 he was averaging double figures and playing 23 minutes a game. Best and Antonio were really solid bench players that were already there (of course Antonio left).

    What is there on this team that can compare? There are some on this year's bench that are solid, but this bench doesn't have the future starters/key role players that were there in the 90's. That puts further pressure on the starters to keep up their play, unlike the 90's team where the starters were gracefully being given a lesser role (by that last year Jackson averaged 27 minutes per game, Smits 23.4, and McKey only 19.8).

    The second is the difference in where the Pacers rank in salary. In 1999, keeping that core together had the Pacers at 3rd in the NBA in overall salary. With ownership not wanting to go above the luxury tax, there's no way they stay anywhere near 3rd in overall salary (they're in between 10th and 15th this year). With that in mind, they are going to need cheap players to not only supplement their core but allow them to slowly take over as parts of the core start to decline. And right now, the only cheap player they have with that kind of upside is really Lance (maybe Plumlee, but his upside is limited), and Lance only has 1 year left of being cheap after this year.

    I'd love to build a team like the 90's. And unlike some, I think the main core has the ability like the 90's one did to do some damage right now. But this Pacers squad simply doesn't have some of the advantages the 90's one did. If the Pacers end up paying all 5 of their starters over the next year and a half, basically the only upgrades to the team will come from low 1st round draft picks and very low cost bench signings. And unless they get very lucky with one of those, that isn't going to have enough upside to offset any decline from the starters. Even if Lance does work out and becomes a great 6th man, the Pacers likely won't have the money to pay him after paying West, Granger, and George.

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    First let me say that in re-reading my response that started with quoting you, I sounded a lot snottier about it than my actual reaction to your particular post/comments.

    Second of all, I definitely agree with you here. And UB loves defense and fundamentals, two items that are not Tyler strengths. He does not rotate well on team defense and hasn't set a clean pick or screen the entire time he's been there. He has no low post moves at all, does not display good balance or footwork in traffic, and in many ways looks stiff and untrained.

    We all love effort, but to me West or Paul are putting out just as much effort and making it look a lot easier because they are so much smoother. In the OKC game West got PnR switched onto Westbrook and he and Paul seemlessly unswitched it without missing a beat or giving up space. They were fluid and coordinated which made it appear almost as if nothing had happened. So this isn't just about good handles or a fancy crossover, it's about floor spacing and coverage too.

    It definitely carries the air of "YMCA" to it.
    Yeah but Tyler still has like 10 years more in his prime why no keep him?.....

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    Bad teams are always constantly rebuilding. Good teams are constantly reloading. The fan base is almost gone. Another rebuild will result in the Pacers playing elsewhere (Seattle?) ...
    I have said that in the past, but there is countless amount of stuff out there saying there is no threat of us losing them.

    But I prefer reload with core players attached.

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I don't hate the players stop with that bs, just because I don't think that they are competing for a championship like you does not mean that I hate them, I just don't use the blue and gold glasses like some people....
    In fairness, he said "dislike", not "hate".

    I'd have to say, who on the roster do you not "dislike" - and that includes players you think are OK but you don't like them due to their contracts? I seldom hear you say a positive thing about anyone that isn't tempered by something negative.
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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    I think you offer West 3 yrs/24 million and hope that no team is going to go so far over that as to make it worth West to move. I would consider going 3 yrs/30 million, but I wouldn't be thrilled about it. I wouldn't give him a guaranteed 4th year under any circumstances right now. I would give him a team option though for a 4th year if that would make him feel better, especially if he is confident he will continue to play well.
    If West is willing to resign for under $10M/yr, then yeah, I'd love for him to come back.

    If there is a good deal that you can make for West, then I hope the Pacers take it. While I think he should be traded since his value is high, it doesn't mean I want him traded for any deal. I just don't see the Pacers making much noise this season, so get something of value while you can.
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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Yeah but Tyler still has like 10 years more in his prime why no keep him?.....
    He said 26-34 so stop with this noise.

    I would caution the continual comparing to the 90 Pacers. There is no Reggie here. There is no Jax. There is no Dale. We have no Tony. And the NBA today is not the same. You might as well compare the Pacers to the Colts of the 80s. Cause it is a different game.

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Great players primes are from about 26/27 to 34, regular player primes are from 26 to 30/31, Seth thinks everybody is in their prime on the Pacers, from the 22 years old guy to the 33 years old guy, I want to know what he is drinking.

    I don't want to be "picking" on you again, but why do you constantly feel the need to take someone's opinion and make it extreme?

    That is NOT what Seth said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Every other guy is older than "rookie green" and just at the edge of that great 26-34 years old window of prime play: old enough to know the game, young enough to execute.
    He practically said the same exact thing as you, and you're purposefully misrepresenting what is said.

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    In fairness, he said "dislike", not "hate".

    I'd have to say, who on the roster do you not "dislike" - and that includes players you think are OK but you don't like them due to their contracts? I seldom hear you say a positive thing about anyone that isn't tempered by something negative.

    I find that I agree with vnzla81 a great deal of the time. One as to look at the players with a critical eye. I don't dislike any of them but I thought they should have moved Granger a few years ago when he still had some value. West is a stop gap player. There are a lot like him available. People are waiting for PG to become a star. I think he is a very good player but will never be a star. Hill is a very good player playing out of position and I like his game a lot. Lance is showing everyone that Bird was right all along and he may be the best chance of everyone we have to become a star player. Hibbert is way outperforming anything that people expected of him. He won't be a star but he will be a top five or six center for a long time. Everyone else on the roster is a journey man and it really doesn't matter if they are here or not. There are always players available to fill these spots. So, what you have is a small market team whose management is delighted to just see them make the playoffs and who have no plan or real desire to get a superstar. They might have had Harden as I said earlier. Houston didn't hesitate when a star became available even when they had a good player to put in that position. I see the Pacers being a mediocre playoff team for several years and then they will go through the rebuilding process all over again and take four to five years to get back to what they are now. ...

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    In fairness, he said "dislike", not "hate".

    I'd have to say, who on the roster do you not "dislike" - and that includes players you think are OK but you don't like them due to their contracts? I seldom hear you say a positive thing about anyone that isn't tempered by something negative.
    You must have me on ignore, I like all the players but I dislike the overrating of players around here, Seth is an expert that loves to overrated the crap of players comparing them to hall of famers drinking the blue and gold koolaid.

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    But for the rest of PN I think you look at the following and feel like "in their prime" is a great description of the core...
    PG Hill 26
    SG Paul 22
    SF Danny 29
    PF West 32
    C Roy 26

    SG Green 27
    SF Young 27
    PF/C Mahinmi 26
    Come on man... Green and Young, but no Lance? What does he need to do for you to begin recognizing his existence? I align with you on most things basketball, but this thing you got going on with Lance is just weird to me.

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    Come on man... Green and Young, but no Lance? What does he need to do for you to begin recognizing his existence? I align with you on most things basketball, but this thing you got going on with Lance is just weird to me.
    He said in their prime, he doen't consider Lance to be in his prime yet, and no one should.

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Id say 'Prime" is 25 to 30. Definitely doesn't mean they cant be great after that point though.

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by spreedom View Post
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    I think people that assume West is going to leave after this offseason are doing so based on a lot of guesswork and very little real evidence.

    It's no more guesswork than those that think DWest is chomping at the bit to stay. Why is your opinion more valid than those who feel differently than you?

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Derek2k3 View Post
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    It just seems that a lot of assumptions are being made about how David feels about this team, his compensation, and the teams willingness to sign him long term.

    I truly expect to see West and PG join Hibbert and Hill as guys with long-term deals, and hopefully Danny is healthy enough to warrant one.

    That's a 2 way street. I guess your assumptions are more relevant and others who disagree with your view are just wrong.

    Where are the Pacers going to get the money to re-sign Paul George since you didn't mention him?

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    It's no more guesswork than those that think DWest is chomping at the bit to stay. Why is your opinion more valid than those who feel differently than you?
    Did he tell you what his opinion is? No, he just said your opinion is 100% baseless, and it is. There is no reason to believe West wants to leave.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    That's a 2 way street. I guess your assumptions are more relevant and others who disagree with your view are just wrong.

    Where are the Pacers going to get the money to re-sign Paul George since you didn't mention him?
    His assumption is more relevant. You are making assumptions based on how Dwight Howard thinks and acts. He is making assumptions based on how West has acted and said in the past. For example he turned down the Celtics, who offered more guaranteed money, to come to the Pacers. It sure as hell wasn't because West hates money. Even though it is all just assumptions, at least he is making assumptions based on logic, and history. You are making assumption based on paranoia. That is the simple truth.

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    And UB loves defense and fundamentals, two items that are not Tyler strengths. He does not rotate well on team defense and hasn't set a clean pick or screen the entire time he's been there. He has no low post moves at all, does not display good balance or footwork in traffic, and in many ways looks stiff and untrained.
    That's not true at all. I remember last March, he set a clean pick in multiple games in the same week.

    Tyler's set literally dozens of clean picks during his time here.
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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Did he tell you what his opinion is? No, he just said your opinion is 100% baseless, and it is. There is no reason to believe West wants to leave.



    His assumption is more relevant. You are making assumptions based on how Dwight Howard thinks and acts. He is making assumptions based on how West has acted and said in the past. For example he turned down the Celtics, who offered more guaranteed money, to come to the Pacers. It sure as hell wasn't because West hates money. Even though it is all just assumptions, at least he is making assumptions based on logic, and history. You are making assumption based on paranoia. That is the simple truth.


    You know this how? Relative or friend of DWest? Clairvoyant? Crystal Ball? Yet, my opinion is baseless! Unless you know for a fact how DWest feels your statement is without merit.

    Paranoia? WOW! I never mentioned Dwight Howard, talk about irrelevant tripe. How DWest felt prior doesn't mean 2 years later he won't change his mind. Things change in people's lives and their prioities change.

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    You know this how? Relative or friend of DWest? Clairvoyant? Crystal Ball? Yet, my opinion is baseless! Unless you know for a fact how DWest feels your statement is without merit.

    Paranoia? WOW! I never mentioned Dwight Howard, talk about irrelevant tripe. How DWest felt prior doesn't mean 2 years later he won't change his mind. Things change in people's lives and their prioities change.
    If you weren't paranoid you wouldn't be assuming he wants to leave. Yes people's opinion can change, but what he thought one year ago is more relevant then any assumption based on....well what is your opinion based on? No you didn't say anything about Dwight, I never said you did. I was making a comparison.

    If West really doesn't want to come back then we need to get rid of him as soon as possible, but at this moment we do not know. The only people who can know are the Wests and the Pacers, not you, not me, not any of us. To make assumptions, and to hold onto those assumptions as strongly as you do is irrational. You are assuming your assumption is truth, and you are infallible. While it is possible you are right, at best you have a 33% chance of being right.

    So please stop being so emotional, and taking things so personal. It just makes you look the fool.
    Last edited by Eleazar; 12-13-2012 at 01:08 AM.

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    Default Re: Interesting Grantland article: Could These Guys Be Traded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    If you weren't paranoid you wouldn't be assuming he wants to leave. Yes people's opinion can change, but what he thought one year ago is more relevant then any assumption based on....well what is your opinion based on? No you didn't say anything about Dwight, I never said you did. I was making a comparison.

    If West really doesn't want to come back then we need to get rid of him as soon as possible, but at this moment we do not know. The only people who can know are Wests and the Pacers, not you, not me, not any of us. To make assumptions, and to hold onto those assumptions as strongly as you do is irrational. You are assuming your assumption is truth, and you are infallible. While it is possible you are right, at best you have a 33% chance of being right.

    So please stop being so emotional, and taking things so personal. It just makes you look the fool.
    All I could say about this conversation is that if I remember correctly NO wanted to keep West and he still left, if he did that to NO what makes you think he is not going to do it to the Pacers? the only way I see the Pacers keeping him is if they offer him some crazy long term contract.

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