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Thread: CIB reaches deal with Pacers

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    Default CIB reaches deal with Pacers

    http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/news/local...ndy-15-million

    INDIANAPOLIS (WISH) - The Capital Improvement Board has reached a new deal with the Pacers.

    The CIB voted this afternoon to extend their contract with the Pacers for another year. The original three-year contract for 33.5 million dollars ends in June of 2013. The latest agreement gives the Pacers a 10 million dollar loan to cover the operating expenses of the Fieldhouse. Those on the board say this allows more time to come up with a long-term deal.

    CIB president Ann Lathrop says the group looked at long term and short term issues and decided it was important to get the Pacers in the building for another season.

    The CIB originally thought it had to pay the city the $15 million as a PILOT, or payment in lieu of taxes. Board members said the State Board of Accounts told the CIB not to pay the 15 million dollar PILOT that is due in January. They said it was not appropriate to take on that added expense. The money was allocated in the 2013 budget by the city council to pay for extra public safety measures. The CIB is currently appealing that decision.

    The president of the CIB says they have 10 million dollars appropriated for the Pacers that will be paid in two 5 million dollar increments.

    A representative for the Pacers says they are happy with the agreement and now they will start working on a long-term deal.

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    Default Re: CIB reaches deal with Pacers

    Maybe I just don't get it, but 10 million is essentially the combined salary of Green, Augistin, and Hansbrough. Is this team really so cash-strapped that it cannot afford to pay the salary of those three bench players? Or to put it more simply, that's what David West makes this year. So is the city paying David West's contract? That's essentially what the Pacers are saying when they ask for this 10 million dollars, isn't it?

    I love the Colts and Pacers more than anything, but boy this city loves to give billionaires taxpayer handouts. If I were an Indy resident who didn't care about the Pacers, then I'd be frustrated that the city was handing out 10 million dollars to a billionaire when there are sooooooooo many other things that could use ten million dollars in the city of Indianapolis.

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    Default Re: CIB reaches deal with Pacers

    Since many of you do not have access to Indystar anymore, here is a much longer article.

    http://www.indystar.com/article/2012...nclick_check=1
    The city of Indianapolis and the Indiana Pacers decided Monday to buy some time.

    The amount: one year.

    The cost: $10 million.

    The city on Monday extended its contract with the Pacers to operate Bankers Life Fieldhouse through the 2013-14 NBA season.

    “We wanted to make sure we definitely had the Pacers locked in for another year,” said Ann Lathrop, president of the Capital Improvement Board, which oversees city sports and convention facilities.

    And there are whiffs in the air that changes could be brewing as the city seeks a long-term agreement with the NBA team.

    The one-year extension to the contract that expires next June gives the Pacers $10 million in taxpayer to help operate the fieldhouse. The CIB approved the extension with just one negative vote.

    The new fieldhouse-operations loan to the Pacers, like the previous $30 million, will be forgiven if the Pacers stay in Indianapolis through 2019. The team has to pay some of the money back if it leaves the city before then.

    Lathrop said the extension gives the city and the team, owned by shopping mall developer Herbert Simon, breathing room to hammer out a long-term deal to keep the Pacers in Indianapolis, the only home the team has ever had.

    “It allows us to spend the appropriate time to get the right long-term deal,” Lathrop said.

    Mayor Greg Ballard supports the one-year extension of the fieldhouse operating agreement as a way to buy time to “get a handle on budget issues,” said mayoral spokesman Marc Lotter. That three-year agreement was a key supplement to the city’s overall contract with the Pacers, which runs through 2019.

    The city’s budgetary uncertainties affect how much money it might have available to spend on any long-term agreement with the Pacers.
    (Page 2 of 2)


    The city, for instance, is looking at tax hikes on car rentals and sports tickets, producing revenue that could be used, in part, to aid the financially pressed CIB. Any revenue changes at the CIB could, in turn, affect its ability to negotiate a new deal with the Pacers and its fieldhouse operating company, Pacers Sports & Entertainment.
    CIB members and others also are talking about the possibility of the CIB taking back management of the fieldhouse from the Pacers.

    Any new long-term deal hammered out with the Pacers also is likely to take into account a new revenue-sharing agreement in the NBA that funnels more money to small-market teams such as the Pacers.

    The Pacers could be one of the biggest beneficiaries of the new NBA revenue-sharing agreement, pocketing as much as $20 million in new revenue in 2013-14, according to a recent article in Sports Business Journal.

    Improved finances for the Pacers, who reportedly have lost money or made minimal profits in recent years, could ease pressures on the city to subsidize fieldhouse operations.

    Greg Schenkel, a vice president for Pacers Sports & Entertainment, wouldn’t comment on specifics of the negotiations with the city, but said the team ownership is “very grateful and pleased they extended it for another year. We’ve had a great long-term relationship with the CIB. We’re all going to work toward . . . a long-term agreement.”
    Schenkel called negotiations “very complex.”

    He said, “We want to see an agreement that is in the best interests of the city and CIB and Pacers Sports & Entertainment and that this building (Bankers Life Fieldhouse) is maintained adequately and the Pacers remain as a tenant. We want to be here.”
    Schenkel said it’s too early to tell how much money the Pacers could reap in the new NBA revenue-sharing agreement, but he acknowledged it likely will be an increase from the past.

    Lathrop said half of the new $10 million loan to the Pacers will be given this month and the other half will be paid in April.

    Other conditions of the contract remain the same over the extended term, she said.
    The CIB, which is a semi-independent municipal corporation, is fighting to stop the Democratic controlled City-County Council from billing it $15 million to help pay for new police officers and firefighters.

    On Monday, CIB attorney Toby McClamroch told members that the state Board of Accounts has ruled it would be inappropriate for the CIB to pay the tax.

    The CIB has already appealed the tax bill, so the Board of Accounts ruling provides legal justification for the CIB’s stance.

    Ballard also has opposed hitting the CIB with the new tax, Lotter said.

    That issue could drag on for months or even longer than a year, which is how long it takes for tax appeals to be heard in Marion County, McClamroch said.


    __________________________________________________ _______________

    CIB-Pacers deal

    The Capital Improvement Board extended by a year (through June 2014) its three-year agreement with Pacers Sports & Entertainment to operate Bankers Life Fieldhouse.

    Terms of the extended agreement include:

    >> $40 million in loans to the Pacers to help pay fieldhouse operating costs for four years. The money is forgiven if the Pacers stay in Indianapolis through 2019. Lesser amounts are forgiven if the Pacers leave before then.

    >> The CIB was required to make $3.5 million in capital improvements to the fieldhouse. That has been done
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 12-11-2012 at 11:06 AM.

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    Default Re: CIB reaches deal with Pacers

    http://www.indystar.com/article/2012...nclick_check=1


    Matthew Tully: Indy is sitting on a tax time bomb


    You know the scene in so many action movies in which the protagonist, in a tension-filled moment, stares at a ticking bomb before carefully clipping one of its many wires, desperately hoping it's the right one?

    That's kind of how it goes with tax increases in Marion County. In this tax-averse county, one with certain tax rates that are undeniably higher than they should be, every tax increase must be handled with extreme caution. Raise the wrong one at the wrong time, and do so without appropriate care and planning, and the results can be disastrous. And if you go through this process often enough, eventually your luck will run out.

    Boom.

    When it comes to taxes, of course, the potential damage includes more families fleeing for the suburbs, more businesses

    joining them, and more conventions avoiding Indianapolis for cities that don't pick their pockets quite so cleanly. Moreover, every tax increase aimed at solving one problem makes it harder to solve other problems; so you'd better pick the right problems to tackle.

    As the city considers a new pair of tax increases to shore up the finances of the Capital Improvement board, which oversees sports and convention facilities, the ramifications are much broader than the specific taxes involved. At some point, voters will say they've had enough and more problems the city needs to address will go ignored.

    The latest debate involves a proposed tax increase that would raise the rate on rental cars from 15 percent to 17 percent, on top of already hefty airport taxes and fees. A second planned increase would raise the ticket tax for Colts and Pacers games, and other events in city-owned facilities, from 6 percent to 10 percent, on top of high sales taxes.

    Collectively, the increases would worsen a serious problem in a city that relies on convention business, as Indy already is known for gouging visitors with high taxes on everything from restaurant tabs to hotel rooms to car[IMG]

    \http://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/icon1.png[/IMG]
    rentals. When it comes to tourism taxes, Indianapolis isn't as bad as Chicago. But it's much worse than Louisville, Cincinnati, St. Louis and most other cities it competes against.

    Meanwhile, this latest idea would affect locals. For a family of four sitting in the balcony for an Indiana Pacers game, for instance, the plan would add $4.48 to the ticket tab, resulting in a cost of $153.80 before parking and food. It would apply to other events that draw people from around Central Indiana, from the Ringling Bros. circus that just left Bankers Life Fieldhouse to the Justin Bieber concert that will send teenyboppers into a frenzy next summer.

    With that in mind, a few things are worth considering.

    First, Indianapolis is in a new era of competition for Central Indiana's entertainment dollars. The Palladium in Carmel -- filled many nights with concertgoers who once headed Downtown -- should serve as a warning of what happens when suburban residents are offered options that include fewer taxes, better parking and less all-around hassle.

    Second, those seeking this tax increase need to prove that they have done everything possible to raise other revenue before turning to taxpayers. So far, they haven't made the case.

    Third, more serious issues than the Capital Improvement Board's budget are on the horizon. The city needs to consider how a series of tax increases now will affect a push to increase taxes later for, say, mass-transit or early learning programs. At some point, residents will have had enough. At some point, politicians will balk at raising another tax.

    The city's luck will eventually run out, and someone will clip the wrong wire. The damage will be widespread. That's worth thinking about as the city addresses its most recent budget crisis.

    Reach Matthew Tully at (317) 444-6033 or via email at matthew.tully@indystar.com Follow him on Twitter @matthewltully.

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    Default Re: CIB reaches deal with Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Maybe I just don't get it, but 10 million is essentially the combined salary of Green, Augistin, and Hansbrough. Is this team really so cash-strapped that it cannot afford to pay the salary of those three bench players? Or to put it more simply, that's what David West makes this year. So is the city paying David West's contract? That's essentially what the Pacers are saying when they ask for this 10 million dollars, isn't it?

    I love the Colts and Pacers more than anything, but boy this city loves to give billionaires taxpayer handouts. If I were an Indy resident who didn't care about the Pacers, then I'd be frustrated that the city was handing out 10 million dollars to a billionaire when there are sooooooooo many other things that could use ten million dollars in the city of Indianapolis.
    Do we have to go back through everything?

    The $10M is not for operations of the Pacers team, it is for the operations and costs of the Fieldhouse. You will also note it is phrased as a LOAN, though I'm sure someone will point out how it really is a gift and will never be paid back because that's how these things work.

    And yes, yes, we know that the Pacers give nothing to a community like Indianapolis so unless Simon is willing to lose $30M per year (or more by deciding to spend $40-$50M on Luxury Tax to get a superstar) he should just close the team down and leave.

    So, can we skip the 100-page thread and just take it as a given?
    BillS

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    Default Re: CIB reaches deal with Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    For a family of four sitting in the balcony for an Indiana Pacers game, for instance, the plan would add $4.48 to the ticket tab, resulting in a cost of $153.80 before parking and food.
    Where in the HELL did Tully get $153.80 for 4 balcony seats for a Pacers game? For Chicago on the 26th, you can get 4 balcony seats for roughly $60 to $70 dollars. From Ticketmaster.
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    Default Re: CIB reaches deal with Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Do we have to go back through everything?

    The $10M is not for operations of the Pacers team, it is for the operations and costs of the Fieldhouse. You will also note it is phrased as a LOAN, though I'm sure someone will point out how it really is a gift and will never be paid back because that's how these things work.

    And yes, yes, we know that the Pacers give nothing to a community like Indianapolis so unless Simon is willing to lose $30M per year (or more by deciding to spend $40-$50M on Luxury Tax to get a superstar) he should just close the team down and leave.

    So, can we skip the 100-page thread and just take it as a given?
    It's only a loan if they leave before 2019. It says in the article that the city will forgive it as long as they stay until 2019. Make no mistake, it's a 10 million dollar gift.

    I don't see why its taboo to ask why they need ten million dollars to operate a building that they already use rent free. Not to mention the fact that the city paid most of the costs to build it in the first place, right?

    I know that it's for Fieldhouse operations and not operations of the Pacers, but it's ten million dollars less that the Pacers will have to pay, right? In practical terms, the city is paying the contract of David West. Or the combined contracts of Hansbrough, George, and Augistin.

    Maybe I'm just a conspiracy theorist, but I don't buy that they are bleeding all of this money year after year. If they and a bunch of other franchises really are, then the NBA by definition is a complete failure of a business model that can survive only by bleeding taxpayers dry.

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    Default Re: CIB reaches deal with Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    If they and a bunch of other franchises really are, then the NBA by definition is a complete failure of a business model that can survive only by bleeding taxpayers dry.
    Keep going...

    They are and it is. This is true of all pro sports. Maybe it doesn't HAVE to be in the NFL, but it's still the business model. This is a sausage being made thing. The actual business of having a pro sports team in your town is pretty gross.

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    Default Re: CIB reaches deal with Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman21 View Post
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    Where in the HELL did Tully get $153.80 for 4 balcony seats for a Pacers game? For Chicago on the 26th, you can get 4 balcony seats for roughly $60 to $70 dollars. From Ticketmaster.
    He has no clue. he must think balcony tickets are about $36-$38. for example every ticket to to sit in the balcony Wednesday night is $5.00 per seat (if ticketmaster is correct)

    so instead of $153.80, it costs $20.00 before [parking and food. Or about $30.00 if you pay the ticketmaster service charge

    so I don't know where he is getting his info
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 12-11-2012 at 11:30 AM.

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    Default Re: CIB reaches deal with Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    It's only a loan if they leave before 2019. It says in the article that the city will forgive it as long as they stay until 2019. Make no mistake, it's a 10 million dollar gift.

    I don't see why its taboo to ask why they need ten million dollars to operate a building that they already use rent free. Not to mention the fact that the city paid most of the costs to build it in the first place, right?

    I know that it's for Fieldhouse operations and not operations of the Pacers, but it's ten million dollars less that the Pacers will have to pay, right? In practical terms, the city is paying the contract of David West. Or the combined contracts of Hansbrough, George, and Augistin.

    Maybe I'm just a conspiracy theorist, but I don't buy that they are bleeding all of this money year after year. If they and a bunch of other franchises really are, then the NBA by definition is a complete failure of a business model that can survive only by bleeding taxpayers dry.
    If it makes you happy look at it this way. The CIB is paying the Pacers to run the Fieldhouse for them so they do not have to deal with running it themselves. In essences the Pacers are a business contractor.

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    Default Re: CIB reaches deal with Pacers



    And let me point out (for the 5,000th time), that when the Fieldhouse was built, PS&E were adamant that they needed to run the Fieldhouse themselves, that one of the big reasons why they lost money at MSA was they were locked out of those lucrative revenue streams.

    All I can say is bull ****. Of course, perhaps I should have just done this four years ago:


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    Default Re: CIB reaches deal with Pacers

    Let me say this first and foremost.

    If I lived in fairytale land and was President of the US, I would prohibit government money being spent on pro sports facilities. But that is completely illogical in the real world for the type of tax revenue that these buildings generate not just directly, but indirectly. They also require fixed costs for the building just sitting there whether it is being used or not and occupancy, just like a hotel, is the most important figure they try to optimize.

    Downtown Indy is a ghost town on a Tuesday night, but you add 5,000-10,000 people that will be buying dinner etc, it is basically just paying to run the facility. Now the numbers aren't one to one, granted, but it helps the City of Indianapolis to keep its professional sports teams. Would they have hosted the Super Bowl without the Colts? Would they host Final Fours if the inner city area was a ghost town? Would Indy benefit from a facility that is only being used 50% of the time and still needs those repairs and incurs those operating costs? There is no other option for the Fieldhouse to fill 41 nights with something to generate revenues. Now if they are losing money from one night to the next, that is where the tax should be driven by the number of tickets sold, so that if the CIB generates more money, the Pacers get more money. If they generate less tax revenue, the Pacers should cover more because the product is less attractive. Now, the Pacers might not mean that much to most of Indiana, but at the same time, the city cannot "move backwards" as a city trying to compete for travel and tourism business with other cities. I am not for tax dollars being spent on pro sports teams in theory, but in practice, these facilities are too important for cities to maintain competitiveness and their downtowns more attractive. That is much more costly to a city than a couple of contingency payments to the Pacers.

    Also, we will never get away from the rich being catered to, because their money is what makes the laws. It isn't about people, but greed. I'm not at all calling Simon greedy, but when people need his influence, they will be more likely to do something that benefits a position of his for favors in return. Welcome to government and business in general. I can't believe the city of Indianapolis has not hosted an NBA All-Star game. There would be a lot of star struck people who all of a sudden get interested in the Pacers, knowing an event of that stature and magnitude was coming, somewhat like the Super Bowl.

    Anyway, I don't live in Indy, but have followed this closely for many years. I think the city is doing the right thing, because they are mitigating the costs of the Fieldhouse if the Pacers were to leave. Plus, they are offsetting those payments, somewhat with indirect tax revenue, I agree with it. Of course, when looking at larger Metropolitan budgets, $10M doesn't seem to be a whole hell of a lot of money. Sorry if I am not as well as informed on this topic as those who are local. Just my long, drawn-out opinion, as always.
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    Default Re: CIB reaches deal with Pacers

    PS&E can't afford to run their business, and we have posters that want the FO to go out and try and spend money like it's coming back through the door.

    This is why we have a conservative FO, whether you like it or not. Can't afford to go out and play with the big boys. Gotta make your own luck.

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    Default Re: CIB reaches deal with Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by pacergod2 View Post
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    Also, we will never get away from the rich being catered to, because their money is what makes the laws. It isn't about people, but greed. I'm not at all calling Simon greedy, but when people need his influence, they will be more likely to do something that benefits a position of his for favors in return. Welcome to government and business in general. I can't believe the city of Indianapolis has not hosted an NBA All-Star game. There would be a lot of star struck people who all of a sudden get interested in the Pacers, knowing an event of that stature and magnitude was coming, somewhat like the Super Bowl.
    We hosted the ASG in 1985. I don't think PS&E believe its worth the headache to hold another one.
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    Default Re: CIB reaches deal with Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    PS&E can't afford to run their business, and we have posters that want the FO to go out and try and spend money like it's coming back through the door.

    This is why we have a conservative FO, whether you like it or not. Can't afford to go out and play with the big boys. Gotta make your own luck.
    Unless you look at it the other way and say the FO needs to energize the fanbase by NOT being conservative, standing pat, taking the easy road. Take some short term pain for some long term gain.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: CIB reaches deal with Pacers

    The number of Indy Star commenters all honked off at Mel Simon for raking in more millions kills me. You gonna rant, at least find out who isn't dead.
    BillS

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    Default Re: CIB reaches deal with Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    The number of Indy Star commenters all honked off at Mel Simon for raking in more millions kills me. You gonna rant, at least find out who isn't dead.
    If you live in the city of Indianapolis and don't care one iota about the Pacers, then isn't it a natural reaction to wonder why a cash-strapped city is giving 10 million dollars to a billionaire?

    I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything. I'm just saying that on this forum, we are all Pacer diehards who care deeply about the team. But not everyone in Indy cares about the Pacers. The fact is, a cash-strapped city giving 10 million to a billionaire is somewhat of a tough PR sell to the public in rough economic times like these.

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    Default Re: CIB reaches deal with Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    If you live in the city of Indianapolis and don't care one iota about the Pacers, then isn't it a natural reaction to wonder why a cash-strapped city is giving 10 million dollars to a billionaire?

    I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything. I'm just saying that on this forum, we are all Pacer diehards who care deeply about the team. But not everyone in Indy cares about the Pacers. The fact is, a cash-strapped city giving 10 million to a billionaire is somewhat of a tough PR sell to the public in rough economic times like these.
    You aren't getting my point here. Mel Simon is dead. Has been dead for years. If you are going to rant, get the person you are ranting at correct.
    BillS

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    Default Re: CIB reaches deal with Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    If you live in the city of Indianapolis and don't care one iota about the Pacers, then isn't it a natural reaction to wonder why a cash-strapped city is giving 10 million dollars to a billionaire?

    I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything. I'm just saying that on this forum, we are all Pacer diehards who care deeply about the team. But not everyone in Indy cares about the Pacers. The fact is, a cash-strapped city giving 10 million to a billionaire is somewhat of a tough PR sell to the public in rough economic times like these.
    It should be said that you don't have to be a die hard Pacer fan to appreciate them staying in the city. If you yourself or friend or family member has a job connected with security, PS&E large staff, hotels, restaurants, parking and nightlife downtown, you definitely care about the Pacers. Those people felt the sting during the lockout.

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  37. #20
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    Default Re: CIB reaches deal with Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    You aren't getting my point here. Mel Simon is dead. Has been dead for years. If you are going to rant, get the person you are ranting at correct.

    Whoops! Sorry, I should have paid better attention. My bad.

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    Default Re: CIB reaches deal with Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by billbradley View Post
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    It should be said that you don't have to be a die hard Pacer fan to appreciate them staying in the city. If you yourself or friend or family member has a job connected with security, PS&E large staff, hotels, restaurants, parking and nightlife downtown, you definitely care about the Pacers. Those people felt the sting during the lockout.
    I agree 100% with that. I just think that there are plenty of people out there who think that the Pacers could stay afloat just fine without getting 10 million from the city.

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    Default Re: CIB reaches deal with Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    If you live in the city of Indianapolis and don't care one iota about the Pacers, then isn't it a natural reaction to wonder why a cash-strapped city is giving 10 million dollars to a billionaire?

    I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything. I'm just saying that on this forum, we are all Pacer diehards who care deeply about the team. But not everyone in Indy cares about the Pacers. The fact is, a cash-strapped city giving 10 million to a billionaire is somewhat of a tough PR sell to the public in rough economic times like these.

    I think you are letting them off too easy. I don't care one iota about the indy 500, brickyard, auto racing. In fact it bugs me. But I understand how much money the track brings in and I want the city to do what is needed to keep these large events.

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    Default Re: CIB reaches deal with Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I think you are letting them off too easy. I don't care one iota about the indy 500, brickyard, auto racing. In fact it bugs me. But I understand how much money the track brings in and I want the city to do what is needed to keep these large events.
    To the best of my knowledge, the Indianapolis Motor Speedway has never asked for tax money like the Colts and Pacers. The biggest expense to the public I can think of is all of the cops that are needed for the event. But the benefits far outweigh that.

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    Default Re: CIB reaches deal with Pacers

    They may not have ever directly asked for money, but I can guarantee they get government money. The government also provides the extra road capabilities that surround the venue. The government also probably gives them some sort of tax advantage for being there. Every large facility gets governmental money. It just comes in different forms.
    "Your course, your path, is not going to be like mine," West says. "Everybody is not called to be a multimillionaire. Everybody's not called to be the president. Whatever your best work is, you do it. Do it well. … You cease your own greatness when you aspire to be someone else."

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    Default Re: CIB reaches deal with Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    To the best of my knowledge, the Indianapolis Motor Speedway has never asked for tax money like the Colts and Pacers. The biggest expense to the public I can think of is all of the cops that are needed for the event. But the benefits far outweigh that.
    OK, but if they did, I would be in favor ot it even though I have no interest in it.

    I think people who live in Indy should see the added value of having the pacers around

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