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Thread: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I'm not sure what you guys were expecting with the cap room. Once Roy and GH was re-signed, there wasn't a whole lot of cap room left. Only about 8-9million

    So what players would have been better signings with that amount of cash? That's to fill 3 positions btw, so one good bench player eats up pretty much all of it. Choose wisely.
    Like Peck says, we missed Scola by two days. Why did we have to sign Hill so quickly when he was restricted? Why couldn't we try any amnesty players?

    Why didn't we make a run at Jason Kidd? NY got him for three years 9 million. I don't care if Kidd is almost 40 because he's exactly the type of player of that we need. His presence is a major reason why NY is so improved this year. A champion like Kidd with that sort of experience and work ethic has a presence that rubs off on everyone in the locker room. Our entire core is basically young players. We need some old vets who have been around the block. A young player like DJ Augistin who has played the bulk of his career on crappy Bobcats teams isn't the type of player that we need. We needed an old vet like Kidd who you could count on to make plays in a playoff series. He will be extremely valuable to NY come playoff time. DJ Augistin likely won't be very valuable to the Pacers in May.

    Would Jason Kidd have picked Indy over NYC? Probably not. But you never know until you try. Maybe they did try, but I have a hard time believing that wouldn't be leaked out by the Pacers. You want it leaked to the fans that you're trying to improve the team.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 12-10-2012 at 11:08 AM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Would Jason Kidd have picked Indy over NYC? Probably not. But you never know until you try. Maybe they did try, but I have a hard time believing that wouldn't be leaked out for the Pacers. You want it leaked to the fans that you're trying to improve the team.
    The thing is I don't believe that we tried either. Cuban comes out swinging for the fences like Larry did the year before. His fans know this, he fails then moves on to plan B. His plan B blows our plan A away. We should have made an offer to Kaman, Mayo, and gone after amnesty players way before we settled for this crap plan with 10 mil in cap space. Some fans will say that I don't know if we didn't. I think that's making excuses for really poor management. If they tried we'd know, there is no reason not to let the fans know you tried.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    So the Pacers not trying to sign, or atleast leaking their attempt to sign, a player they had no shot at signing that's really the biggest complaint?

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    The thing is I don't believe that we tried either. Cuban comes out swinging for the fences like Larry did the year before. His fans know this, he fails then moves on to plan B. His plan B blows our plan A away. We should have made an offer to Kaman, Mayo, and gone after amnesty players way before we settled for this crap plan with 10 mil in cap space. Some fans will say that I don't know if we didn't. I think that's making excuses for really poor management. If they tried we'd know, there is no reason not to let the fans know you tried.
    So because Cuban spends $80M on his team, unless Simon matches, they're not as committed?


    I'm just trying to figure out your guy's standards here.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    CJ Watson or Hinrich would have been nice, but really that's about it looking through the FA list.

    Lou Williams is another, but I'm not sure Pacers would have had enough playing time available to make him happy. But other than that, the FA list of attainable players just isn't all that appealing.

    Missing out on Steimsma and Bayless really doesn't keep me up at night.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    So the Pacers not trying to sign, or atleast leaking their attempt to sign, a player they had no shot at signing that's really the biggest complaint?
    How do you know they had no shot at signing him? Kidd left Dallas, the place where he won a title just a year before, because he felt that NY had a better chance at winning a championship. Well by any objective measure, the Pacers had a more successful season than the Knicks last year. So if Kidd thought that the Knicks were in better shape than Dallas, then logically he would have thought that the Pacers were too. Kidd had to have been aware that the Pacers had the 5th best record in the league last year and put up a fight against Miami. So why wouldn't he have at least listened if we came to him with a slightly better offer than NY?

    I just don't buy the whole "they wouldn't come here, so why try" mindset. Kidd likely would have chose NY anyway, but why not try? I think we could have put together an attractive enough offer to make him think.

    And George Hill was restricted and not going anywhere. We could have waited a few more days to finalize that deal and try for some amnesty players, as Peck mentioned.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    So the Pacers not trying to sign, or atleast leaking their attempt to sign, a player they had no shot at signing that's really the biggest complaint?
    No... The Pacers going conservative when they had needs to fill and the rest of the NBA contending/playoff teams were making real moves to improve is the argument. There is no argument the Pacers had no shot at certain players because the Pacers didn't try. If they had tried then by all normal accounts it would've been leaked. Only then would we know if they had a shot or not. This is not Basketball Siberia.

    I cannot believe it's Groundhog Day all over again and Donnie Walsh is back in charge of the Pacers and we're having these discussions. Please get rid of him once and for all.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Does trying to sign Mayo outright fall into that conservative POV? Nutinus has had a convo going with Vnzla in another thread, showing where the Pacers were one of the teams chasing Mayo. We never heard much, or anything really, about that.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I just don't buy the whole "they wouldn't come here, so why try" mindset. Kidd likely would have chose NY anyway, but why not try? I think we could have put together an attractive enough offer to make him think.
    I've never given the "why try" line, nor would I. You said it yourself that you think Kidd picking Indy over NYC would be a long shot.

    I just don't think you can say, "well it wasn't leaked, so therefore there was no attempt."

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I've never given the "why try" line, nor would I. You said it yourself that you think Kidd picking Indy over NYC would be a long shot.

    I just don't think you can say, "well it wasn't leaked, so therefore there was no attempt."

    True, I can't affirmatively state that they didn't try since it wasn't leaked. But in the 24/7 internet media sports world, it's usually always leaked when a team makes a serious run at a free agent. Teams almost always want it out there that they are trying to improve their team.

    And I'm sorry if I put words in your mouth with the "why try" line. I was responding to your "no shot" in post 103. I'll concede that NY had an advantage with the bright lines of NYC and Melo. Not a bad way to end your career. Nevertheless, I still think that the Pacers could have at least grabbed his attention if they sweetened the pot a little, if winning was the major factor in his decision.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Scola was a surprise amnesty to everyone other than Houston. It was just crap timing for us. Could they have backed off their already-announced press conference for Roy and Hill and made them wait to sign their deals? Yes/maybe. Do I blame them for not doing that to those two? I'm not sure, but my immediate gut reaction is to say no. It's my head that has me thinking maybe I should feel differently, but I'm not sure.

    My only real hindsight complaint about the summer is we didn't get an upgrade at backup 4. I really thought we would. At the time, I thought DJ was a good get for backup 1 and Green was an interesting (in a good way) choice for a new backup wing.

    I kept thinking we might try to get Landry.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    I didn't know that the Pacers actually offered Mayo a FA contract. Maybe it was discussed, and I just missed it, but I have a very good memory and don't recall it.

    EDIT:
    The Augustine signing is really what screwed everything up, IMHO. I don't think anyone could have foreseen how truly awful he's been.
    Last edited by Since86; 12-10-2012 at 11:58 AM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    EDIT:
    The Augustine signing is really what screwed everything up, IMHO. I don't think anyone could have foreseen how truly awful he's been.
    It has to be the #1 problem with the bench. Green's a dumb basketball player, but if DJ played the 1 as we expected, I think he could have been more of a straw stirring the drink with that backup crew. Maybe when Lance goes back to the bench he can bring some of that at the SG spot when he handles the ball.

    Which brings us back to the #1 problem with the team: Danny's injury.

    I think we could live with everything else as it is if only we could get 2011-12 (which really isn't asking for much) Augustin and 2011-12 Danny on this current team, and I think we'd be right at the top of the east.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    I was kinda hoping for that also. Couldn't believe we didn't work the backup 4 replacement harder. If Plumlee had worked out better for a backup 4/5, maybe Mahinmi could have taken a lot of the 4 rotation minutes. We badly need some offense from the 4 position in the 2nd unit and Tyler is clearly not going to give it to us. Still think we need a change before the deadline for trades. Tyler's expiring should be movable to some team with salary problems.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by MAStamper View Post
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    I think we could live with everything else as it is if only we could get 2011-12 (which really isn't asking for much) Augustin
    But is it possible for 2011-12 Augistin to play that way on a good team like the Pacers that requires far more discipline and team basketball than the putrid Bobcats a season ago? I'm beginning to think that his season last year was a complete mirage and that a ton of players are capable of putting up some misleading numbers if they have the opportunity to shoot a bunch.

    His FG% is beyond awful this year at 26%, so you'd logically expect that to inevitably improve at some point. However, in his "good" season last year, he still only shot 37%. For comparison's sake, Collison shot a solid 44% a year ago.

    IMO, Augistin is just a sloppy player who had a misleading season last year because he was able to get 10 field goal attempts per game. But his FG percentage was still complete crap last year. Here he has an even worse percentage and is shooting the ball less.

    He did have 6.4 assists a game last year though, so it definitely wasn't unreasonable for us to think he could get assists here.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    DJ's inability to run an offense is more troubling than anything. I'm sure Travis Best is sitting somewhere getting jealous at the amount of dribbling, with players standing around watching.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Now that I think about it, we don't have a single player on our team who has been a contributor on a team that went to the conference finals. I bet we are the only "contender" in the league who you can say that about.

    No, I'm not going to count Mahinmi. He only played in 6 games for a total of 33 minutes in Dallas' 2011 run. That's hardly contributing.

    Experience is extremely valuable. You don't want a team of all young players. West and Granger are veterans, but last year was just the first time that Danny advanced past the first round of the playoffs. It was only the second time for West. I know I've harped on this a lot lately, but I'll do it one more time since that stat just popped into my head. This team desperately needed to add a player that has "been there" before and who could show the rest of the group how to take the next step in the playoffs. I know all of that sounds cliche', but it's true. Reggie in his book mentions multiple times how Byron Scott's presence changed the attitude of those mid 90's Pacer teams. I've heard plenty of old-timers say that here over the years too. Scott used to bring his Laker rings into the locker room to motivate the players.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 12-10-2012 at 12:30 PM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    But is it possible for 2011-12 Augistin to play that way on a good team like the Pacers that requires far more discipline and team basketball than the putrid Bobcats a season ago? I'm beginning to think that his season last year was a complete mirage and that a ton of players are capable of putting up some misleading numbers if they have the opportunity to shoot a bunch.

    His FG% is beyond awful this year at 26%, so you'd logically expect that to inevitably improve at some point. However, in his "good" season last year, he still only shot 37%. For comparison's sake, Collison shot a solid 44% a year ago.

    IMO, Augistin is just a sloppy player who had a misleading season last year because he was able to get 10 field goal attempts per game. But his FG percentage was still complete crap last year. Here he has an even worse percentage and is shooting the ball less.

    He did have 6.4 assists a game last year though, so it definitely wasn't unreasonable for us to think he could get assists here.
    Statistically his numbers last year in 30 minutes are similar to Price's per 36 numbers, except DJ was a better 3-point shooter, while Price was a better rebounder. Not in the statistics is Price is at worst an adequate defender, and is much better at running an offense. I said at one point in the offseason, based on stats and the way people described him, that DJ was basically a mixture of DC and Price. So far that is true. At the time it made me a little nervous, but I had hope that DJ would be able to run and offense and find open people for easy scores. Instead we got a player that is only the worst parts of DC (defense, running an offense) and the worst parts of Price (shooting).

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Now that I think about it, we don't have a single player on our team who has been a contributor on a team that went to the conference finals. I bet we are the only "contender" in the league who you can say that about.

    No, I'm not going to count Mahinmi. He only played in 6 games for a total of 33 minutes in Dallas' 2011 run. That's hardly contributing.

    Experience is extremely valuable. You don't want a team of all young players. West and Granger are veterans, but last year was just the first time that Danny advanced past the first round of the playoffs. It was only the second time for West. I know I've harped on this a lot lately, but I'll do it one more time since that stat just popped into my head. This team desperately needed to add a player that has "been there" before and who could show the rest of the group how to take the next step in the playoffs. I know all of that sounds cliche', but it's true. Reggie in his book mentions multiple times how Byron Scott's presence changed the attitude of those mid 90's Pacer teams. I've heard plenty of old-timers say that here over the years too. Scott used to bring his Laker rings into the locker room to motivate the players.
    Hopefully we pick up a vet PG and PF in the offseason to replace DJ and Hansbrough.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    So because Cuban spends $80M on his team, unless Simon matches, they're not as committed?


    I'm just trying to figure out your guy's standards here.
    Salary has nothing to do with the issue. Cuban spent very little on the players he brought in this year. It's just a matter of competent management.
    The Mavs organization made smarter moves this year with the money they spent and made Walsh look like an incompetent fool with what he spent our hard earned cap space on.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    So how can Simon "swing for the fences" without upping salary, if salary has nothing to do with the issue?
    Last edited by Since86; 12-10-2012 at 05:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    Salary has nothing to do with the issue. Cuban spent very little on the players he brought in this year. It's just a matter of competent management.
    The Mavs organization made smarter moves this year with the money they spent and made Walsh look like an incompetent fool with what he spent our hard earned cap space on.
    Annnnnnd the Mavs are 10-10..1/2 a game better than the Pacers.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by MAStamper View Post
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    Scola was a surprise amnesty to everyone other than Houston. It was just crap timing for us. Could they have backed off their already-announced press conference for Roy and Hill and made them wait to sign their deals? Yes/maybe. Do I blame them for not doing that to those two? I'm not sure, but my immediate gut reaction is to say no. It's my head that has me thinking maybe I should feel differently, but I'm not sure.

    My only real hindsight complaint about the summer is we didn't get an upgrade at backup 4. I really thought we would. At the time, I thought DJ was a good get for backup 1 and Green was an interesting (in a good way) choice for a new backup wing.

    I kept thinking we might try to get Landry.
    That's the lamest excuse I've ever heard. The Pacers as an orgainization should ALWAYS wait to see what players get amnestied. *****, I don't see how it's that hard to understand. They aren't getting big FAs, and this is the one thing where they could pick up a player on the cheap. To me, it just shows how inept the front office is. That along with just giving Hill a huge deal instead of letting the market dictate what he should get. Giving DC away just to get rid of Jones. All just dumb moves.

    If the Pacers had let the market dictate Hill's salary, he'd have made less. That savings would easily have been enough to sign Ian without having to give away DC and signing a more expensive backup. If anything, it would have at least allowed the Pacers to work DC in a different trade scenario.

    And I even think Hill is playing up to his contract. I seriously think he could have been signed for less.

    For an organization that needs to watch how it spends, they sure love to overpay players that they didn't need to.
    With the #3 pick in the 2015 draft, your Indiana Pacers!

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Uh, where was it written that the amnesties were going to happen when they did? How long into the summer were they supposed to wait, exactly, for an amnesty they didn't even suspect was going to happen in the first bloody place? To be upset about it, from what I can tell, seems pretty ridiculous.

    Frustrated, I can understand, but upset? No.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    I'm not sure what the rules on amnesties are as far as timing but as long as an amnestied player is announced before you've signed your own FA's then you have little excuse outside of not being interested in getting involved. Your own FA's can wait. It's not like they wouldn't want to see the team strengthened themselves so I'm sure postponing their signing date wouldn't be that big of an insult.
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