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Thread: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    Yes, I think we could have landed Kaman with a 4/32 contract or maybe a 3/24 and he's well worth double what Ian is getting. Kaman would have had as many or more minutes playing for the Pacers as the Mavs and money talks. Figuring out the rotation really isn't that hard with Kaman being able to play either the 4 or the 5 it's easy to keep a combination of 2 of the 3 on the floor at almost all times you just always have either West or Hibbert on the floor and sometimes both. It's almost like the rotation we played with Smits and the Davises. I wouldn't suggest completely eliminating Hans but I would suggest just giving him spot minutes.

    Why did we have to even schedule the signings of Hibbert and Hill so early? Good time management which falls under the job radar of the people managing our F.O. would have opened many many doors, and every year there are bargain players available after the big overspending rush. Bird knew this and that's how he landed West.
    No offense but it honestly sounds like you're making excuses for incompetent management.
    I believe that they could have got Kaman for like 7mil a year if that was the plan, sign Kaman, resign Barbosa, keep DC/DJ or if you dont get Kaman go after OJ or Crawford, again has there ever been a better off season full of possibilities for the Pacers? ever? I don't think so.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    "We should try to acquire some guys from the D-League and Bobcats," said Daryl Morey, never. (DJ and Green)

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    This isn't how an argument works, you haven't made an argument you've just said, "no you are wrong." In order for me to take you seriously you need to say you are wrong BECAUSE and then provide some examples. Where are these good moves? Which ones were good?

    Top 5 record... how'd that end up for us? Fool's gold right, I mean, 6 playoff wins feels nice, but when you remember they were all against teams missing a player better than any player on our roster is kind of sobers it up a bit, doesn't it?
    No, I didn't say "you are wrong." I said Vnlza always trashs things, which he does. Let's stick to the things I said.

    I'm merely pointing out that when you trash every decision, you're bound to be right a few times. It's like a broken clock, it's right twice a day.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    No, I didn't say "you are wrong." I said Vnlza always trashs things, which he does. Let's stick to the things I said.

    I'm merely pointing out that when you trash every decision, you're bound to be right a few times. It's like a broken clock, it's right twice a day.
    Once again you are wrong, I'm not trashing the resigning of Hill and Roy you should know that, I have been saying it forever but of course once again you omit something so you can fool people into believing your side, good try though.

    And you hate to admit it but you know I'm right more times than not, there is a reason why you expend so much time trying to prove me wrong, keep trying.
    Last edited by vnzla81; 12-09-2012 at 02:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    No, I didn't say "you are wrong." I said Vnlza always trashs things, which he does. Let's stick to the things I said.

    I'm merely pointing out that when you trash every decision, you're bound to be right a few times. It's like a broken clock, it's right twice a day.
    Ok, so still no examples of good moves then? You say he trashes everything -- I know for a fact V has said he was wrong and now considers DWest a good move. In order for your argument to make any sense it is, "V trashes every move, even good ones." If V trashes every move because they are all trash that just means he's right a lot. Without examples of other good moves you are just saying, "V is right a lot." If that's your argument so be it. Either bring on the good move examples, or you have nothing.
    Last edited by Dece; 12-09-2012 at 02:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    I think Mahinmi in the end will be a good backup for us. I don't know how to judge the value of his contract so I'll just leave that for all of you cap experts out there.

    But the way we obtained Ian is what I have a problem with. While I am no Vnzla81 (I'm not nearly as good looking) I was complaining this off season about our moves as well. I think this summer was one of the biggest missed opportunities that we have had in years if not in forever.

    We had the juice to be a real player in the trade market and we could have dramatically improved our team by actually bringing in another B level talent (I consider West, Granger B level talent) or by bringing in some proven veteran experience to shore up the bench.

    I to this day still believe that is why Larry Bird is not here, I believe he was ready to make this move & wanted to do it right now but instead our owner didn't want to make this type of a move so Larry is off playing golf now. I could be wrong btw, I have no real knowledge of any of this but my belief is Larry was ready to go from upstart team to legitimate contender.

    Someone is going to say "well Mr. Smarty pants what moves are out there and be specific because Dwight Howard wasn't coming here". That's fair btw; it’s easy to say that moves could have been made without giving any real ideas about what those trades are.
    First and foremost I don’t care what we promised George Hill or Roy Hibbert agent we missed Louis Scola by two days. George Hill was a restricted free agent who frankly was not going to get the type of money anywhere else and even if he did we could have matched it with no problem. Sure it may not have felt as good as the press conference with him and Roy but guess what he would have gotten over it the first time he got a deposit in his bank account.

    This wasn’t just a mistake, this was a huge colossal blunder IMO. Louis Scola is almost a B level talent himself (you could even make the argument he is) and you could have signed him without giving up a single asset. He easily could play the backup four or even backup five spot and give you far more than what you are getting right now.

    They could have just signed Mahinmi and thus leaving Collison as what I think he should have been all along, trade sweetener to get rid of Tyler Hansbrough. Tyler played well at the beginning of the season but overall I just don’t see his long term use. I’d much rather have a backup of Mahinmi & Scola than Mahinmi & Hansbrough. I would have looked to Utah as a trade partner there as they have an abundant supply of big men that you might have been able to work out some deal for.

    Now your going to say that this is all fine and good but none of this dramatically improves the club. I’ll disagree btw I think Scola would have dramatically improved the club. But if your looking for players that could have been brought in well nobody knows for sure but I have always had a sneaking suspicion that there was a trade to be made for John Wall. What would it have taken? I don’t know but honestly I think the Wizards are going to say no they are building around him but in truth would entertain the right deal for him.

    Would he be a difference maker on our team? I think so. It wouldn’t come cheap because they would want real assets for him but I believe we had the assets to do it or something like it.

    I never got the Green signing and frankly I never liked Augustin. But at the end of the day they are Pacers now, management decided that this was the way to go so while I don’t have to like it I either have to accept it or move on.

    I don’t like the off season moves but I will say that I think they probably did think that these players would be better than they are and honestly if Granger were here and healthy we would probably be 14-6 and one of the top teams in the East.

    But those were just some of my ideas about this past off season. The only thing that concerns me long term though is if Herb really truly is not willing to make dramatic moves and that is why Bird is gone. Now notice I didn’t say Herb was willing to spend, he is willing to spend.


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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    Ok, so still no examples of good moves then? You say he trashes everything -- I know for a fact V has said he was wrong and now considers DWest a good move. In order for your argument to make any sense it is, "V trashes every move, even good ones." If V trashes every move because they are all trash that just means he's right a lot. Without examples of other good moves you are just saying, "V is right a lot." If that's your argument so be it. Either bring on the good move examples, or you have nothing.
    I say Vnzla trashes everything, and you bring up a player he's spent the entire tenure with the Pacers *****ing about as evidence that he doesn't?

    I'll stop disrupting the thread now.

    DJ sucks, he's horrible, he needs to sit. Everyone else will benefit from it.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    I gave you one example, and noted V admitted he was wrong on it. If this is an ongoing thing, all 3 of us have been on this board for years, surely you must have other examples you could cite to prove your point? Or are you just *****ing about V for the sake of *****ing? Cite examples or you're just crying for the sake of crying, period. I find you're not worth my time. I'm going to put you on ignore because you have not been able to contribute beyond crying about V. I'll take you off in a month, maybe you'll learn how to post constructively sometime between now and then.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    I gave you one example, and noted V admitted he was wrong on it. If this is an ongoing thing, all 3 of us have been on this board for years, surely you must have other examples you could cite to prove your point? Or are you just *****ing about V for the sake of *****ing? Cite examples or you're just crying for the sake of crying, period. I find you're not worth my time. I'm going to put you on ignore because you have not been able to contribute beyond crying about V. I'll take you off in a month, maybe you'll learn how to post constructively sometime between now and then.
    Yep he likes to cry and argue for no reason, he keeps saying that I cry about West but is not as much about West as it is about the "West followers" thinking that he is sacred and yes I was wrong about West and I was wrong about Augustine been better than DC, but is still in wait and see because I expect DJ to look better in another system.
    Last edited by vnzla81; 12-09-2012 at 05:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    That's not even a good example, though, that's a counterexample. I mean sure, you were wrong, but you were wrong because you were HAPPY and thought it was a good move, not because you trashed it. The argument is you trash everything. (referencing DJ)

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    That's not even a good example, though, that's a counterexample. I mean sure, you were wrong, but you were wrong because you were HAPPY and thought it was a good move, not because you trashed it. The argument is you trash everything. (referencing DJ)
    Yeah the argument is that I trash everything but they know is bs, I was pretty much one of the few happy people here when the Pacers traded for Hill and I was the only person together with somebody else (I can't remember who) happy when they drafted Tyler, I'm also positive about Paul George but yeah "I trash everything"

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    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    You don't need a cristal ball to know that Green, Young, Ian and DJ were going to fail, it wasn't that hard to predict and yes we have an idea what they didn't try to get done BECAUSE THEY HAD A CHANCE TO GET AMNESTY PLAYERS BUT THEY DECIDED NOT TO EVEN TRY.
    And you know this for a fact how? You and Scola best friends? You and Brand play golf together? Not everything is reported! We don't even know half of what goes on behind the scenes!

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    I never understood the point of tearing down the 2nd unit to make it bettter. DC and DJones were usable rotation players with chemstry with the group. Mahinmi or some one better could have been signed out right. Just adding IM would have gone a long way toward solving the problems with the unit and given us one personality to blend in instead of 4. DC or even AJ would have been a better leader on the 2nd unit than DJA has turned out to be. I guess I was just very susprised that we didn't try to shore up the PF position in the offseason instead of replacing the other 4 positions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I could be wrong btw, I have no real knowledge of any of this but my belief is Larry was ready to go from upstart team to legitimate contender.
    This is all I'm wanting to hear. Whether your opinion is that the FO has done a good job or not, it's just that. Your opinion! No one knows for a fact what moves were attempted or not.

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    I've used up enough energy on this subject. I usually don't get into any back and forth on here, but I enjoy it every now and then. I respect everyone's opinions and the fact that each of us have the same goal.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by 2minutes twoa View Post
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    And you know this for a fact how? You and Scola best friends? You and Brand play golf together? Not everything is reported! We don't even know half of what goes on behind the scenes!
    It's pretty simple why I know what I know and this is the thousand time I'm going to post how I know it, Pritchard told everybody on 1070 the fan why they didn't get Brand or Scola, he said that they were monitoring the two guys but at the end they were not able to get them because they didn't have enough time, so yeah I'm not making S*** up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    It's pretty simple why I know what I know and this is the thousand time I'm going to post how I know it, Pritchard told everybody on 1070 the fan why they didn't get Brand or Scola, he said that they were monitoring the two guys but at the end they were not able to get them because they didn't have enough time, so yeah I'm not making S*** up.
    What sounds better? "We didn't have enough time." Or "Both Scola and Brand's agents said there was no way in hell they want to play in Indiana."? All you and I know is what they want us to know.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    I think the poorness of the offseason has actually been hidden somewhat by the idea that Danny Granger would make a huge difference in things. I agree he'd make a difference but I don't see it being that big of a difference. It would just allow us to truly judge how bad the off season was or was not.

    And for those of you who have bitten on the Walsh excuse of 'small market... small market' that he has fostered so well we had the perfect opportunity with last season's record, 2nd round playoff experience, and cap space to make a difference in that equation. You don't see the Colts playing this small market pity party game.

    Granger has been on the decline, maybe it's been because of his knee, and I just don't see him being the kind of difference maker we'd need to overcome the problems we have. It's not like we're waiting on Michael Jordan to return, or Hakeem, or even Reggie Miller.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by 2minutes twoa View Post
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    What sounds better? "We didn't have enough time." Or "Both Scola and Brand's agents said there was no way in hell they want to play in Indiana."? All you and I know is what they want us to know.
    Now who has the crystal ball? ...

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    The fact is that the Pacers had the potential to have one of the best off seasons ever and they screwed it up by signing a bunch of scrubs, I mean they had everything, cap space, trade assets, picks, they were also under the cap what else do you Fing want?

    Yeah, I don't see how it's really possible to do less than what the Pacers did this off-season considering the assets and cap space they had.

    No one can convince me that signing guys like Augistin and Green were good moves. We don't need young guys who have spent the bulk of their careers on crappy teams. We have an extremely solid young core of players with a solid older vet in West. Granger would still be considered relatively young if not for the unfortunate injury. What we needed were some players who have proven themselves on good teams. At the very very least, we needed some old vets off of the bench who have won before and who you can count on to have composure in a playoff series. Augistin and Green are not those players.

    They were poor signings, and they were not the type of signings that a team makes if if its trying to substantially improve its roster with resources/cap space like we had this summer.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Yeah, I don't see how it's really possible to do less than what the Pacers did this off-season considering the assets and cap space they had.

    No one can convince me that signing guys like Augistin and Green were good moves. We don't need young guys who have spent the bulk of their careers on crappy teams. We have an extremely solid young core of players with a solid older vet in West. Granger would still be considered relatively young if not for the unfortunate injury. What we needed were some players who have proven themselves on good teams. At the very very least, we needed some old vets off of the bench who have won before and who you can count on to have composure in a playoff series. Augistin and Green are not those players.

    They were poor signings, and they were not the type of signings that a team makes if if its trying to substantially improve its roster with resources/cap space like we had this summer.


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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by 2minutes twoa View Post
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    What sounds better? "We didn't have enough time." Or "Both Scola and Brand's agents said there was no way in hell they want to play in Indiana."? All you and I know is what they want us to know.
    It doesn't matter, amnestied players don't get to choose.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    The fact is that the Pacers had the potential to have one of the best off seasons ever and they screwed it up by signing a bunch of scrubs, I mean they had everything, cap space, trade assets, picks, they were also under the cap what else do you Fing want?
    And vnz, I know that you're not a big Bird fan, but would you agree that there's no way he would have been content with merely adding guys like Augistin and Green? Bird brought this team back to respectability and was handicapped by crappy assets for many years, so I have to think that he would have wanted to attempt some big things with the assets we had last summer. I just don't buy that a guy who brought in George Hill and David West one offseason would have been content with adding Augistin, Green, and Mahinmi the next when he would have had flexibility to do more. I think he would have seen that he had built a very solid foundation, but that more moves were necessary to take us to the next level, particularly since we actually had the means to do some things.

    Bird brought us back to respectability, but IMO, there was no point (from his standpoint) in him hanging around any longer if his only task was to nurture a solid team. I think that continuing to do it was only going to be worth it for him if he knew he could go pedal to the metal and do whatever he wanted to get this team to the next level. You don't go from saying in late May that you'd "do it today (come back) if Herbie was here" to deciding to walk away just a few weeks later unless something substantial happens. I'll always be convinced that something happened during the meetings with Simon.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 12-10-2012 at 12:44 AM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    I'm not sure what you guys were expecting with the cap room. Once Roy and GH was re-signed, there wasn't a whole lot of cap room left. Only about 8-9million

    So what players would have been better signings with that amount of cash? That's to fill 3 positions btw, so one good bench player eats up pretty much all of it. Choose wisely.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I'm not sure what you guys were expecting with the cap room. Once Roy and GH was re-signed, there wasn't a whole lot of cap room left. Only about 8-9million

    So what players would have been better signings with that amount of cash? That's to fill 3 positions btw, so one good bench player eats up pretty much all of it. Choose wisely.
    I don't think there was any cap room left after the signings of Hibbert and Hill. That's the biggest point, the F.O. should have managed that timing better which would have opened up a lot of options.
    However, if we were to only be working with 8-9 mil I'd say sign Kaman to a 3/24 deal and call it a day by keeping the rest of our bench as it was. We'd be far better off right now.

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