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Thread: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    Good summary. If you just called for Donnie Walsh's head for squandering a huge amount of cap space on this down graded bench it would be perfect.
    Huge amount? Really? I only regret the Gerald Green contract. The Augustin contract, which at the time many of us (myself included) thought was too short), looks like great one-year contract. I'm happy with the Mahinmi contract. You can't really compare big man value to other guys--there's an inflated value there.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by D-BONE View Post
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    For me, the huge disappointment is you have all this cap space. You have an obvious need for a difference making player. You get nobody even close. We get a collection of guys who, best case, are marginally POTENTIAL (yes the dreaded P word) guys.
    I can't remember who said it, but a few weeks ago a poster made an important point that the seasons Green and Augistin had last year were a mirage. Most NBA players have enough talent that they can score a decent amount of points on a bad team if they are given the green light to take a lot of shots and do whatever they want. I'm guessing that's what happened with Augistin in Green last year, though I can't say I spent a lot of time watching Nets and Bobcats games if they weren't playing the Pacers. Anyway, making valuable contributions on a winning team like the Pacers which had the 5th best record in the league last year is a completely different animal than having the green light to shoot a bunch on a crappy team.

    We have an excellent core of young players with an good old vet in David West. What this team needed is some veterans off the bench who have won before in the playoffs. Barbosa and Dhantay weren't the best players ever, but they did bring that valuable experience as both have been on deep playoff runs. Green and Augistin weren't the type of players that we needed. We need a Rasheed Wallace or a Jason Kidd. Or to use an old Pacer example, a Byron Scott. I would give anything to have an old champ on this team.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 12-08-2012 at 11:30 AM.

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    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom View Post
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    You can't really compare big man value to other guys--there's an inflated value there.
    Well, technically speaking, there's an inflated cost there.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Green is just struggling. I'm not ready to give up on him yet. He's played very well in some games, he's played good in others, and then there are times that he deserves to be sent back to the DLeague during a timeout. He just makes some really bad decisions at times. He's already shown the ability to grow, so I don't think it's a lack of ability.


    DJ will figure it out offensively in time, if he ever gets another shot, but his defense is enough to want him out. I'd take DC back any day, assuming he'd be a happy guy. I'm with Wells on this one, time to give Ben a run. He can't possibly be much worse, and his style of PG play is more akin to Hill's.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I can't remember who said it, but a few weeks ago a poster made an important point that the seasons Green and Augistin had last year were a mirage. Most NBA players have enough talent that they can score a decent amount of points on a bad team if they are given the green light to take a lot of shots and do whatever they want. I'm guessing that's what happened with Augistin in Green last year, though I can't say I spent a lot of time watching Nets and Bobcats games if they weren't playing the Pacers. Anyway, making valuable contributions on a winning team like the Pacers which had the 5th best record in the league last year is a completely different animal than having the green light to shoot a bunch on a crappy team.

    We have an excellent core of young players with an good old vet in David West. What this team needed is some veterans off the bench who have won before in the playoffs. Barbosa and Dhantay weren't the best players ever, but they did bring that valuable experience as both have been on deep playoff runs. Green and Augistin weren't the type of players that we needed. We need a Rasheed Wallace or a Jason Kidd. Or to use an old Pacer example, a Byron Scott. I would give anything to have an old champ on this team.
    The Pacers had the cap space to bring veterans like the ones you are talking about and they could have got them for a low price too, they are spending about 14mil on scrubs, here is just an example of what they could have got if they were smart:

    Kmart for 1.4 or Brand for 2mil instead of Ian 4mil.

    CJ Watson 900K instead of DJ 3mil.

    Barbosa 1mil instead of Green 3mil.

    Young is the only cheap decent player they got, he only makes 800K so whatever he brings is gravy, by the way how many more games do we need to call this off season a fail? 70 games?

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    What this team needed is some veterans off the bench who have won before in the playoffs. Barbosa and Dhantay weren't the best players ever, but they did bring that valuable experience as both have been on deep playoff runs. Green and Augistin weren't the type of players that we needed. We need a Rasheed Wallace or a Jason Kidd. Or to use an old Pacer example, a Byron Scott. I would give anything to have an old champ on this team.
    I agree with this.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    Well, technically speaking, there's an inflated cost there.
    How about inflated perception of their value?

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    The Pacers had the cap space to bring veterans like the ones you are talking about and they could have got them for a low price too, they are spending about 14mil on scrubs, here is just an example of what they could have got if they were smart:

    Kmart for 1.4 or Brand for 2mil instead of Ian 4mil.

    CJ Watson 900K instead of DJ 3mil.

    Barbosa 1mil instead of Green 3mil.

    Young is the only cheap decent player they got, he only makes 800K so whatever he brings is gravy, by the way how many more games do we need to call this off season a fail? 70 games?
    They can still bring in Kenyon Martin. And there will be other vets available in Spring. I appreciate taking some flyers in the offseason.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Why would we want an aging backup 4 to be our backup 5 instead of Ian? Makes no sense.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by MAStamper View Post
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    Why would we want an aging backup 4 to be our backup 5 instead of Ian? Makes no sense.
    A guy that averaged 5.2 and 4.3 last year for the Clippers and he is saying that he is fine with veteran minimum why not? he is a better rebounder, he is a better defender and a better scorer than Ian.

    Note: I know some are going to say that I'm contradicting myself for wanting Martin but is different to want an old guy to be a bench player for the minimum for one year than want an old player to be your starting power forward for years to come for about 10/12mil a year, Huge difference.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Why would we want to give a guy who's ceiling is career backup big a 4 year contract? You are far better off getting 1-2 year contracts on superior veterans, often on lower salaries.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    A little side note. In the first half the bench + Hill was more or less neutral. They played together for somewhere between 2 and 4 minutes, and came out with a -1. Then in the second quarter DJ came in, and everything went to ****. Even when starters came back in everything was still **** until DJ was on the bench.


    I don't understand what Green has done to deserve the amount of hate he is getting. Other than a slow start, and one mental mistake that cost us the game he has been at worst a neutral player. He might not be living up to expectations, but he isn't having a consistent negative effect on the game.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    A little side note. In the first half the bench + Hill was more or less neutral. They played together for somewhere between 2 and 4 minutes, and came out with a -1. Then in the second quarter DJ came in, and everything went to ****. Even when starters came back in everything was still **** until DJ was on the bench.


    I don't understand what Green has done to deserve the amount of hate he is getting. Other than a slow start, and one mental mistake that cost us the game he has been at worst a neutral player. He might not be living up to expectations, but he isn't having a consistent negative effect on the game.
    I personally am not impressed with Green at all, but I don't dispute your point. I think you could say he's been neutral, neither consistently good or bad. The frustrating thing for me is that this is exactly the kind of guy we didn't need. We needed new acquisitions who, relative to their role, had more positive influence on the game.

    I think as far as Green a reasonable expectation would be he would provide some consistent scoring punch off the bench. His major accomplishment with NJ was low teens off the bench. So far, so underwhelming there and I don't see much contribution anywhere else, which actually I don't find that surprising b/c, AFAIK, the guy did not have a rep as being too great at anything but shooting/scoring.

    Yes, they were imperfect, but IMO DC, Dahntay, Barbosa, and Lou had a much more positive affect on our overall team play than what our current bench had done so far. It's not even close. And you cannot convince me that this bench improves that significantly even with Lance (when DG returns).

    The front office wanted to upgrade the bench after the starters dominance in their minutes v. Miami in the playoffs. They acquired four new guys currently seeing action, and the unit is worse so far than what we had.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Even if Green is "neutral" paying him 3mil a year to be "neutral" is a huge fail.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    If anyone is expecting any moves then you best dial it back- This team is hovering around .500... still has a chance at the playoffs... has a built in excuse for coming up short ("We didn't expect Danny to miss this much time").... AND has Donnie Do Nothing Walsh running things. He'll be more busy preparing new contracts and checks for the existing players than actually talking to anyone about any trades.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    A guy that averaged 5.2 and 4.3 last year for the Clippers and he is saying that he is fine with veteran minimum why not? he is a better rebounder, he is a better defender and a better scorer than Ian.

    Note: I know some are going to say that I'm contradicting myself for wanting Martin but is different to want an old guy to be a bench player for the minimum for one year than want an old player to be your starting power forward for years to come for about 10/12mil a year, Huge difference.
    Mahinmi was much better than Martin last year. In the per 36 minute stats, he scored more points, grabbed more rebounds, went to the line more and shot a better percentage from the line. They were about even in steals and blocks, Martin with a slight edge in assists, Martin turned it over a little less and fouled less.

    So far this year Mahinmi's field goal percentage has gone way down, he's getting to the line more, his blocks have gone way up, and his turnovers have gone way up. Hard to say how he'll settle out. But even if he turns out to be bad, Martin is not a good option to replace him. He was terrible last year and is 35, and then you add in that nobody wants him (which at least provides a clue of how he currently looks on the court in addition to the numbers). Plus, the Pacers need a player like Mahinmi for things like covering Dwight Howard when Roy goes out with foul trouble. Martin can't do that for them.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    If anyone is expecting any moves then you best dial it back- This team is hovering around .500... still has a chance at the playoffs... has a built in excuse for coming up short ("We didn't expect Danny to miss this much time").... AND has Donnie Do Nothing Walsh running things. He'll be more busy preparing new contracts and checks for the existing players than actually talking to anyone about any trades.
    They better not be preparing a new contract for DJ... but yea, we are stuck with this guy on the team for the rest of the year. Hopefully Vogel has him in street clothes soon.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    If anyone is expecting any moves then you best dial it back- This team is hovering around .500... still has a chance at the playoffs... has a built in excuse for coming up short ("We didn't expect Danny to miss this much time").... AND has Donnie Do Nothing Walsh running things. He'll be more busy preparing new contracts and checks for the existing players than actually talking to anyone about any trades.

    I wish Bird was still running things. I never felt that he was content. He always wanted more. Over a year and a half span, he added DC, Paul George, George Hill, and David West. We didn't lose anything of value over that time span either.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    Why would we want to give a guy who's ceiling is career backup big a 4 year contract? You are far better off getting 1-2 year contracts on superior veterans, often on lower salaries.
    Because he's already a pretty decent backup big, and good backup bigs are expensive. Instead of going out and getting an expensive one, eating up cap room you need, you sign a decent one and hope he continues to develop.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I wish Bird was still running things. I never felt that he was content. He always wanted more. Over a year and a half span, he added DC, Paul George, George Hill, and David West. We didn't lose anything of value over that time span either.
    I mean, that's not fair. We lost two first round picks (to draft Paul, trade for Hill) and 20 million dollars (David West).

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by owl View Post
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    The worst part on DJ is he is so bad on offense.
    FTFY. The fact that he hasn't been able to pass, shoot, or run any semblance of any offense is by far the worst thing about DJ. We knew his defense was terrible. The second unit offense should work, in theory. Green's a spot-up shooter, Young moves without the ball, Ian hits from mid-range and Tyler crashes the boards. All these guys do need someone to set them up, and DJ has been completely inept at running the PnR and setting anyone up. Because of that, you ask Green to make creative decisions, Young to shoot too many jumpers, and Ian to drive to the basket like Lebron. It's wrong to put it all on him, but DJ's job is to run that unit, and he's been so bad, it's like Tony Clifton playing point guard.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    If anyone is expecting any moves then you best dial it back- This team is hovering around .500... still has a chance at the playoffs... has a built in excuse for coming up short ("We didn't expect Danny to miss this much time").... AND has Donnie Do Nothing Walsh running things. He'll be more busy preparing new contracts and checks for the existing players than actually talking to anyone about any trades.

    Checkbook Donnie in charge of negoiating DWest, Granger, and Paul G's coming contracts scares the carp out of me. I'm so afraid he'll bury the Pacers in cap hell again, then walk out the door leaving the Pacers for years saddled with no way to do anything until contracts expire.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    these are some general observations:
    every player has had some off nights. this is totally understandable. however, of all the guys who are in the regular rotation, dj has been by a large margin imo- the absolute worst. i am more than ready to give ben a shot instead. he may be a rook but, i am willing to see him give it a go as i don't see how he could do much worse as that would be impossible as far as i can tell.
    i agree with most of those who say tyler has made substantial improvements on defense. this was absolutely necessary as it has been really bad since he got here. thing is though even while his mid-range 10-17 foot jumpers were inconsistent then- now they are non-existent. i swear i haven't seen him hit one this year despite trying several times. this is an absolutely essential aspect to his game given his physical limitations. imagine if west had no jump-shot? he would not start anywhere if he didn't. and this is something else about tyler that bugs me, he is never going to be more than a mediocre rebounder at best. i see him play around 15 minutes a game and he seems to rarely pull down more than 1-2 rebounds. i worry donnie will go into his "we gotta re-sign our guys mode" and bring him back but, unless i saw something more than i have seen already- i am not interested in bringing him back.

    frank has still shown a desire to go all bench and i don't think that is ever going to work out with this group. i am on board with the "we need at least 2 starters out there whenever possible" and his stubborn refusal to call timeouts when other teams make their runs troubles me. back in the day, bob knight used to do this at IU and i swear far more often than not- the whole "they gotta figure it out on their own" backfired. i remember some saying phil jackson did it this way too but hey, phil jackson also had the luxury of having some of the absolute greatest players of all freakin time on his teams and that makes a HUGE difference and you can afford to play it that way when you got guys like jordan and shaq playing for you.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom View Post
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    I mean, that's not fair. We lost two first round picks (to draft Paul, trade for Hill) and 20 million dollars (David West).
    True, obviously nothing is free. All I met is that we didn't give up any core foundational players to get those guys. We lost draft picks, Troy Murphy, and some money. I'll take it.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Blinded by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Even if Green is "neutral" paying him 3mil a year to be "neutral" is a huge fail.
    I'm not arguing that he has liked up to any expectations, just that he shouldn't be lumped in with DJ. Green still looks like he could turn it around and average 10 or so points efficiently. DJ just looks like a player who wouldn't make it in high school.

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