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Thread: 3-pointer: Darren Collison disappoints again. ESPN Dallas

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    Default Re: 3-pointer: Darren Collison disappoints again. ESPN Dallas

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
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    It's easy to rag on a guy that's had a couple awful games (or weeks, as may be the case), but on the whole his stats still compare favorably with George Hill's:

    Collison: 12.1 PPG (.435 FG% / .318 3P%), 6.1 APG (2.5 TO), 2.2 RPG
    Hill: 14.6 PPG (.406 FG% / .326 3P%), 5.2 APG (1.8 TO), 3.9 RPG

    The Mavericks are 8-10 and the Pacers are 10-9. Both teams are missing their top players and it's debatable whose "supporting cast" is better. (I'd personally take the Pacers over the Mavs, probably even with Nowitzki, but that's just me). Now, I'm not saying I'd prefer DC (I wouldn't) or that George Hill has played poorly (he hasn't), but to call Collison "garbage" is clearly overstating the case. In the two seasons I've seen him play, he's proven two things to me: 1) he has talent, and 2) he's terribly inconsistent. He's playing ****** now, but he was playing pretty good at the beginning of the year - who's to say which is "the true Darren Collison"?
    He's definitely not garbage. But I agree with B&G that he is a small shooting guard. If you think he's going to perform point guard duties, you will be greatly disappointed. I'd take him as a spark off the bench.
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    Default Re: 3-pointer: Darren Collison disappoints again. ESPN Dallas

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    He's definitely not garbage. But I agree with B&G that he is a small shooting guard. If you think he's going to perform point guard duties, you will be greatly disappointed. I'd take him as a spark off the bench.
    You're probably right, but it's a new system and (mostly) new teammates for DC. A good stew takes time.

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    Default Re: 3-pointer: Darren Collison disappoints again. ESPN Dallas

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    He's definitely not garbage. But I agree with B&G that he is a small shooting guard. If you think he's going to perform point guard duties, you will be greatly disappointed. I'd take him as a spark off the bench.
    Yes, he's actually a very good spark off the bench. He showed that against Miami and became a good weapon. But that's really all he is. He's like Vinnie Johnson back in the day in Detroit. He can heat up. He's not much different than having a Nate Robinson coming off the bench. But neither is a good starting PG. They are explosive scorers, short in stature. Neither make their team mates better and neither have that great court awareness you want in a PG.

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    Default Re: 3-pointer: Darren Collison disappoints again. ESPN Dallas

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
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    You're probably right, but it's a new system and (mostly) new teammates for DC. A good stew takes time.
    Vogel had that on simmer for a long time. It never tasted good enough and that's why George Hill starts for the Pacers.

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    Default Re: 3-pointer: Darren Collison disappoints again. ESPN Dallas

    Quote Originally Posted by purdue101 View Post
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    Yes, Mahinmi struggled early on, but he's been very good lately and worth the money. I don't question his annual salary of $4M, I question the risk tied to the length of the contract, but if he continues to earn it, who cares. He may even improve and outplay the contract.

    Mareese Speights averaged similar numbers and received $4.2M per year. Robin Lopez received almost $5M per year after averaging 5pts 3 boards. He's having a great year this year, but he's getting starters mins - per 36 they are spot on to Mahinmi. Mozgov, Joel Anthony, McRoberts, Hawes, Koufos, Jordan Hill, etc. All these guys are averaging 3-7PPG and 3-5RPG and all are making $3-7M/year. Bigs always get paid more, always have, always will. The alternative is Joel Freeland or Lou Amundson as your backup C. You have to admit, Mahinmi has been pretty good the last 5 games. His defense is well above average.

    I agree with you on DJ (he's been terrible) and Green. I don't necessarily believe Green is overpaid league-wise (similar 7-10 PPG backup wings are making 3-6M/year), but he is overpaid for our team when you consider the emergence of Lance & Young. I would welcome a trade when Danny returns (Lance takes the backup SG spot). An ideal trade would have DJ/Green going out for a good backup PG who can score - Calderon, JJ Barea, Luke Ridenour, DC come to mind.
    I like Mahinmi the person but I don't like the player, his contract is still too big for my liking.

    By the way Lopez average right now is 12 and 5 do I think Mahinmi can average that much in Roy's place? Hell no.
    Last edited by vnzla81; 12-06-2012 at 09:35 PM.

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    Default Re: 3-pointer: Darren Collison disappoints again. ESPN Dallas

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I like Mahinmi the person but I don't like the player, his contract is still too big for my liking.
    Out of curiosity...How much less do you expect a near 7ft, long and athletic b/u C to realistically make?

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    Default Re: 3-pointer: Darren Collison disappoints again. ESPN Dallas

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Out of curiosity...How much less do you expect a near 7ft, long and athletic b/u C to realistically make?
    For a guy like Ian not much, he should get the same type of contract the Pacers gave Solo, they are pretty similar.

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    Default Re: 3-pointer: Darren Collison disappoints again. ESPN Dallas

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    For a guy like Ian not much, he should get the same type of contract the Pacers gave Solo, they are pretty similar.
    Have to break from you on this one. Ian is a lot better than Solo. Solo shouldn't be in the league. Ian is a better backup C than Lou.

    Edit: Augustin is paid almost as much as Ian. That makes Ian a bargain.

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    Default Re: 3-pointer: Darren Collison disappoints again. ESPN Dallas

    Ian's the only guy of the three big offseason acquisitions who's meeting expectations for me. I don't know if you can cure the kind of butter fingers he's got. But, if so, he could actually be a really nice player.
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    Default Re: 3-pointer: Darren Collison disappoints again. ESPN Dallas

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Have to break from you on this one. Ian is a lot better than Solo. Solo shouldn't be in the league. Ian is a better backup C than Lou.
    Neither one of those guys have the capability to start or replace Roy in case he gets hurt, there is a reason why West plays center at time, yes Ian is a bit better than those guys but he is still not worth 4mil a year.

    Just so you know Lopez got 3 and 15 and he is capable of replacing any center in the league while Ian can't do that.

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    Default Re: 3-pointer: Darren Collison disappoints again. ESPN Dallas

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I like Mahinmi the person but I don't like the player, his contract is still too big for my liking.

    By the way Lopez average right now is 12 and 5 do I think Mahinmi can average that much in Roy's place? Hell no.
    I'm aware of Lopez's current production, which is why I referenced it (did you not read my post?) Remember though, he is getting starter minutes for the 4th worst team in the league. When Mahinmi started for Dallas, he actually averaged more rebounds (6 per game). His points were only 7 per game, however he took less shots then Lopez does now (their FG% was identical). So yes, he likely could average the same numbers for a terrible team

    Mahinmi is giving us exactly what $4M big men are worth in the NBA - the stats and salaries are facts. I just think your expectations are slightly high. Prime example - Taj Gibson is giving Chicago 6 and 4 off the bench and just got $8M/year.

    Also, small sample, but in the 1 game Mahinmi did play starter minutes, he gave us 11 and 6.
    Last edited by purdue101; 12-06-2012 at 09:56 PM.

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    Default Re: 3-pointer: Darren Collison disappoints again. ESPN Dallas

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Neither one of those guys have the capability to start or replace Roy in case he gets hurt, there is a reason why West plays center at time, yes Ian is a bit better than those guys but he is still not worth 4mil a year.

    Just so you know Lopez got 3 and 15 and he is capable of replacing any center in the league while Ian can't do that.
    He's probably a little overpaid, but you have to give something for size...and if they have any BBall IQ at all...which he has a little, they get a minimum of 3M. I'm not sure you get a guy like Ian for much less. Considering our past in terms of overpaying players, he's still a bargain. IIRC, Murphy made over 11M at one point. JO in a suit was making well over 20M. JBender made a mint on potential. I say we're doing pretty good.

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    Default Re: 3-pointer: Darren Collison disappoints again. ESPN Dallas

    Quote Originally Posted by purdue101 View Post
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    I'm aware of Lopez's current production, which is why I referenced it (did you not read my post?) Remember though, he is getting starter minutes for the 4th worst team in the league. When Mahinmi started for Dallas, he actually averaged more rebounds (6 per game). His points were only 7 per game, however he took less shots then Lopez does now (there FG% was identical). So yes, he likely could average the same numbers for a terrible team

    Mahinmi is giving us exactly what $4M big men are worth in the NBA - the stats and salaries are facts. I just think your expectations are slightly high. Prime example - Taj Gibson is giving Chicago 6 and 4 off the bench and just got $8M/year.
    My expectations are high because I can come up with a lot of cheap backup centers that can produce the same Ian is producing right now and I'm sorry I don't buy the Ian starting thing, he is one of those players incapable of staying on the floor for long, he has the Nate Robinson thing in him good for some minutes but more than that he is more bad than good.

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    Default Re: 3-pointer: Darren Collison disappoints again. ESPN Dallas

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    Ian's killing it lately, he's playing like he did in preseason. Why are you still down on him? If he continues playing like this he's a bargain.
    What's he had 2 good games, 2 decent games and 14 bad games? I'll admit that he's played better lately but let's not forget his complete work to date as a Pacer.

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    Default Re: 3-pointer: Darren Collison disappoints again. ESPN Dallas

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    My expectations are high because I can come up with a lot of cheap backup centers that can produce the same Ian is producing right now and I'm sorry I don't buy the Ian starting thing, he is one of those players incapable of staying on the floor for long, he has the Nate Robinson thing in him good for some minutes but more than that he is more bad than good.
    Ok then - who? Give me "lots" of backup centers playing 15mpg +, not on rookie deals, who average similar numbers (PPG, RPG, PER and good defense) and get paid drastically less.

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    Default Re: 3-pointer: Darren Collison disappoints again. ESPN Dallas

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    What's he had 2 good games, 2 decent games and 14 bad games? I'll admit that he's played better lately but let's not forget his complete work to date as a Pacer.
    I think is about 3 good games so far, maybe more if you want to count preseason.

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    Default Re: 3-pointer: Darren Collison disappoints again. ESPN Dallas

    Quote Originally Posted by purdue101 View Post
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    Ok then - who? Give me "lots" of backup centers playing 15mpg +, not on rookie deals, who average similar numbers (PPG, RPG, PER and good defense) and get paid drastically less.
    I got JO - that's about it.

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    Default Re: 3-pointer: Darren Collison disappoints again. ESPN Dallas

    Quote Originally Posted by purdue101 View Post
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    I got JO - that's about it.
    Two - Brandon Wright is playing well too

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    Default Re: 3-pointer: Darren Collison disappoints again. ESPN Dallas

    Quote Originally Posted by purdue101 View Post
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    Ok then - who? Give me "lots" of backup centers playing 15mpg +, not on rookie deals, who average similar numbers (PPG, RPG, PER and good defense) and get paid drastically less.
    Here is a list of guys that I can come up with:

    Reggie Evans 1.3mil a year, pretty much an steal at that price.

    Andray B 800k

    Kaman, 8mil for one year.

    Brand, 2.1mil


    Landry 4mil

    Turiaf, 1.1mil

    Ryan Hollins 1.1mil.

    Jordan Hil 3.5mil


    Dalembert 6.7mil for one year.



    Greg Stiemsma, 2.5mil.

    Lou, 1mil.


    Lopez 5mil.

    Jason Smith, 2.5mil

    Camby 4mil

    Rasheed Wallace 1.3mil

    Kurt Thomas 1.3mil

    Nick Collison 2.9mil

    Thabeet 800k

    Hawes 6.5 for two years.

    Kwame 3mil

    JO 1.3mil

    This are just some examples but I can keep going, the point is that there was not reason to overpay for Ian.

    Note: I'm not looking at their production now but I believe that in the same position as Ian a lot of them can produce the same for less(for those that make less).
    Last edited by vnzla81; 12-06-2012 at 10:36 PM.

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    Default Re: 3-pointer: Darren Collison disappoints again. ESPN Dallas

    I guess I don't understand what a backup center is supposed to be averaging. In 15 minutes per he's averaging 5 points, 3.5 boards, and 1 block per game. He does foul too much but he also gets in there and alters a lot of shots. And frankly Ian creates less contact than Hibbert on most of the fouls he is called for. Just watch him, he plays good PnR defense and protects the rim.

    And he's doing it playing alongside defensive savants DJ Augustin, Gerald Green, Tyler Hansbrough, and David West.

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    Default Re: 3-pointer: Darren Collison disappoints again. ESPN Dallas

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    [Ian] should get the same type of contract the Pacers gave Solo, they are pretty similar.
    Dude, those two guys aren't similar NOW, and Solo's a much better basketball player today than he was with the Pacers.
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    Default Re: 3-pointer: Darren Collison disappoints again. ESPN Dallas

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Here is a list of guys that I can come up with:

    Reggie Evans 1.3mil a year, pretty much an steal at that price.
    Andray B 800k **
    Brand, 2.1mil **
    Turiaf, 1.1mil
    Ryan Hollins 1.1mil.
    Jordan Hil 3.5mil
    Greg Stiemsma, 2.5mil.
    Jason Smith, 2.5mil
    Camby 4mil
    Rasheed Wallace 1.3mil
    Kurt Thomas 1.3mil
    Nick Collison 2.9mil
    Thabeet 800k
    Kwame 3mil
    JO 1.3mil

    Guys I moved because they don't fit:
    Kaman, 8mil for one year. REason: 4 mil != 8 mil
    Landry 4mil Reason: Not a center.
    Dalembert 6.7mil for one year. Reason: 4 mil != 6.7 mil
    Lou, 1mil. Reason: Not a center
    Lopez 5mil. Reason: 5 mil != 4 mil
    Hawes 6.5 for two years. Reason: 6.5 mil != 4 mil

    This are just some examples but I can keep going, the point is that there was not reason to overpay for Ian.
    I would prefer you keep going, I'm going to edit your post and move the guys that don't fit the criteria and asterisk the guys that fit because they got claimed off of waivers.

    I didn't move the guyswhose production didn't match up to Ian's, but if I did there would have been only a few guys left in your original list. And if you also require that they need to have the same defensive presence as Ian it goes down further. And let's not pretend that Indiana is a hot ticket for veteran guys that are on their last legs. They want to be on teams where they can use their veteran awareness to make up for their lack of mobility utiltizing space that only superstars can create. Not every player is available to every team.

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    Default Re: 3-pointer: Darren Collison disappoints again. ESPN Dallas

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    I would still trade DJ for him.
    Was going to say this. DC would probably be cool with coming here and playing backup at this point.
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    Default Re: 3-pointer: Darren Collison disappoints again. ESPN Dallas

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Here is a list of guys that I can come up with:

    Reggie Evans 1.3mil a year, pretty much an steal at that price.

    Andray B 800k

    Kaman, 8mil for one year.

    Brand, 2.1mil


    Landry 4mil

    Turiaf, 1.1mil

    Ryan Hollins 1.1mil.

    Jordan Hil 3.5mil


    Dalembert 6.7mil for one year.



    Greg Stiemsma, 2.5mil.

    Lou, 1mil.


    Lopez 5mil.

    Jason Smith, 2.5mil

    Camby 4mil

    Rasheed Wallace 1.3mil

    Kurt Thomas 1.3mil

    Nick Collison 2.9mil

    Thabeet 800k

    Hawes 6.5 for two years.

    Kwame 3mil

    JO 1.3mil

    This are just some examples but I can keep going, the point is that there was not reason to overpay for Ian.

    Note: I'm not looking at their production now but I believe that in the same position as Ian a lot of them can produce the same for less(for those that make less).
    Nice try Vnzla - Stiemsma, Lou, Hollins, Kwame, Kurt Thomas, Turiaf, Thabeet, and Camby are awful this year - far inferior players and the stats back that up. Wallace and Evans are ring chasing vets in NY/BKY and would never sign in Indy - PF's too. Landry is a PF (we could never play him as a C). Collison makes 2.9M, but remember, he got a huge balloon payment in year 1 to redo his deal, so the average per year of the deal is around $5M (proves my point). Hawes (proves my point). Jordan Hill (proves my point). Dalembert (proves my point). I agree with JO and Jason Smith. Brand and AB came off amnesty (no one on the other side negotiating their price). Nice try though.

    Taj - 6 & 5 - $8M
    Hawes - 7 & 5 - $6.5M
    Amir J - 7 & 5 - $6.5M
    Dalembert - 6 & 5 - $6M
    Collison - 6 & 4 - $5M (Average w/ balloon payment)
    Speights - 6 & 5 - $4.2M
    Mahinmi - 5 & 4 - $4M
    Hill - 6 & 5 - $3.5M
    Mozgov - 4 & 5 - $3.1M
    McRoberts - 4 & 4 - $3M

    When looking at blocks/min, Mahinmi is atop this list. Mahinmi is right where he should be salary wise.
    Last edited by purdue101; 12-06-2012 at 11:04 PM.

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    Default Re: 3-pointer: Darren Collison disappoints again. ESPN Dallas

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    I would prefer you keep going, I'm going to edit your post and move the guys that don't fit the criteria and asterisk the guys that fit because they got claimed off of waivers.

    I didn't move the guyswhose production didn't match up to Ian's, but if I did there would have been only a few guys left in your original list. And if you also require that they need to have the same defensive presence as Ian it goes down further. And let's not pretend that Indiana is a hot ticket for veteran guys that are on their last legs. They want to be on teams where they can use their veteran awareness to make up for their lack of mobility utiltizing space that only superstars can create. Not every player is available to every team.
    And what stopped the Pacers for claiming those guys other than themself? Brand, Scola and Andray would have been way better than Ian, yes two of them are not "true centers" but who cares? by the way I almost forgot about Kmart, he is a free agent and wants to sign for the minimum with anybody.

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