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Thread: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

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    Default Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    You can go on Youtube and see Chamberlain. I saw him in the early 70's and believe he was clearly better than Kareem. A lot more physical and athletic. He was like a bigger and much more skilled Dwight Howard. If he played in the 90's during the big man era, he would totally dominate Ewing. He would be better than the other centers with Hakeem, Kareem and a young Shaq coming in 2nd, 3rd and 4th.

    Edit: people who never saw Wilt play may not realize how mobile he was. Ewing was nowhere near his level. Imagine LeBron James with about 5 more inches. No, not quite that mobile. But he was a track star before he played basketball and was extremely athletic.
    I also saw Wilt go against Kareem at the end of his career and you are correct, Wilt was a whole lot better. Wilt was the best rebounder to ever play the game. He was also a great defender and shot blocker. He was as strong or stronger than Shaq and much more mobile. They changed the rules for Shaq. If he had played like that in Wilt's day, he would have fouled out of every game in the first quarter..... ...

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    Default Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

    Quote Originally Posted by hackashaq View Post
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    I'm surprised Oscar is so high on some of the lists.
    Oscar was one of the very best. He scored 30 points a game and still averaged ~ 9.5 assists, not to mention his rebounding. He was cursed by playing on a team that was not quite good enough to beat the Celtics in the playoffs. When he teamed with a young Jabbar he won the championship. He is the only player in the history of the NBA to have a triple double in his first game. He was the most dominate guard I ever saw play in the NBA.

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    Default Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    I also saw Wilt go against Kareem at the end of his career and you are correct, Wilt was a whole lot better. Wilt was the best rebounder to ever play the game. He was also a great defender and shot blocker. He was as strong or stronger than Shaq and much more mobile. They changed the rules for Shaq. If he had played like that in Wilt's day, he would have fouled out of every game in the first quarter..... ...
    Very well put.

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    Default Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robertmto View Post
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    sixth.... wow
    Yeah, I've moved him up a bit on the list after listening to the folks up here for a decade or so blab on about his overrated airness.
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    Default Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

    Some of these lists....well I don't even think they deserve to be commented on.

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    Default Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

    He's in my top ten for sure, but I really can't rank guys too much more specifically than that. TBH I have a ton of common ground with Bill Simmons as far as how guys like Jordan and Russell are ranked, but below those two I think the next 10-15 guys are all relatively even. For modern, active players, I think Duncan has had a better all-around career, and LeBron at his peak has been better than Kobe at his peak. FWIW

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    Default Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

    Just as good as Jordan. 5 rings to 6 is close
    David "And One" West

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    Default Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    Please. No hand checking? MJ would have a field day with the likes of every defender in this league.
    That's not what I meant.

    If MJ played in an era where fans and media demanded likeability from an athlete 24/7 in order to be considered "a legend" or top 5 all time, he wouldn't be. Because quite frankly, MJ makes Kobe look like a sweet heart. (although, funny enough, I find Kobe to be his most likeable when he's being an *******. )

    I mean heck, look at Lebron. Sure, he has some entitlement issues, but for most of his career being liked was more important to him than being the best. The worst thing the guy ever did was move to Florida to play with his BFF...and he still managed to have a time period where he was the most hated athlete in America.

    Right now, Kobe isn't ranked where he should be, in terms of "all time great" because of that whole "likeability" thing. Don't get me wrong, it's partially (mostly) his fault. He has zero charisma or really any social skills. He's arrogant, cheesy, demanding, intense..and when he tries to appear nice, it comes off as being fake.

    I mean heck, I love Steve Nash, I do. But the media essentially made up reasons as to why Nash deserved MVP over Kobe, twice. Because they didn't want to give Kobe the award. Because they didn't like him. (Because apparently, taking a team that plays Smush Parker, Chris Mihm, and Luke Walton, rotation minutes to the playoffs isn't making the team better..)

    Measure Kobe's career up to anyone's in the areas that he can control (IE, not media awards), and I don't know how he's not at least top 5.

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    Default Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    his overrated airness.
    What more could Jordan have possibly done? Guy was still dominating the league in his mid 30's. He was basically perfect in every conceivable way.

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    Default Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Gill View Post
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    Controversial opinion alert: Wilt Chamberlain is overrated. In interest of full-disclosure, I never saw the man play - way before my time (like, I presume many others in this thread). I would merely suggest that had he played in an era with Shaq, Kareem, Hakeem, even a guy like Ewing, many of these All-Time Greatest lists might look very different. He was a 7'2 giant playing in an era when the average height of a starting center was 6'7. Also, any list with Russell over Wilt is nonsensical. I understand the argument that Russell played on vastly superior teams, but 9 championships to 2 pretty much speaks for itself.

    Maybe one of the old-timers on here can set me straight, because I just don't get Wilt being a top 5 player all time.
    I agree. Championships matter far more in basketball than football or baseball when it comes to ranking all-time greats. In football you can only play one side of the field and in baseball you can only bat 4 or 5 times. But in basketball you have the opportunity to dominate both ends of the court.

    Winning only two championships in an era where there were like 14 teams just isn't enough to be labeled a top 3 all time player, IMO. I don't see how anyone could put him over Jordan when Jordan won 6 championships in an era where there were far more teams, not to mention a far better talent pool of athletes. There was literally nothing else that Jordan could have accomplished in his career. The man did it all. With Wilt OTOH, there will always be a "yeah, but....." Wilt is not top 3.

    Now I obviously never saw Wilt play, but I'm going to presume that the majority of the people commenting here didn't either. He last played in 1973, so you'd have to be in your early 50's to have any memory of him. You'd have to be closer to 60 to have any clear memory of him during the prime of his career.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 12-07-2012 at 04:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

    I know Russell played with atleast 6-7 other HOF players on the Celtics, but I'm not sure how many Wilt ever had. Anyone know?

    When you compare individual stats, Wilt blows Russell out of the water. They both averaged 22rebs for their entire careers (crazy) but Wilt doubled Bill's scoring average. 30.1ppg average compared to 15.1ppg average.

    Russell's fg% of 44% isn't very good, compared to 54% for Wilt.
    Last edited by Since86; 12-07-2012 at 04:05 PM.

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    Default Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I know Russell played with atleast 6-7 other HOF players on the Celtics, but I'm not sure how many Wilt ever had. Anyone know?

    I'm not for sure. He did have Elgin Baylor for 3 of his 5 Laker years and Jerry West for all 5 of them.

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    Default Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

    It took Russell and seven other HoF'ers to beat Wilt's one-man teams in Philly and SF. Championships are a team award, not an individual award and to rank Russell higher than Wilt simply because Russell had better teammates is something that misses the mark.

    If that's your criteria, just run a link to this page: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...pionships.html I don't agree with this concept as teams win championships and plenty of great individual players haven't been blessed to be on championship-quality rosters.

    And if that's your criteria, you're seriously underrating Kareem Adbul Jabbar as well. With six championships each, you couldn't have him much lower than Jordan. Hey, Kareem won championships without Magic. (He won them with Oscar. )

    It always comes back to this for me: The NBA kept changing the rules (three seconds, widening the lane, etc.) to make it more difficult for Wilt to dominate. And they kept bending the rules (an extra step, generous foul calls) to help Jordan dominate. Wilt was often playing 1-on-7 (or 1-on-8 if there were three refs, don't remember when that changed). Jordan was playing 8-on-5.

    Much more respect for Wilt.

    (End note, Wilt was probably the third or forth best player on those Lakers teams at the end of his career, that wasn't Wilt at his prime.)
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    Default Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I know Russell played with atleast 6-7 other HOF players on the Celtics, but I'm not sure how many Wilt ever had. Anyone know?
    Also, yeah Russell definitely played with better players. But Wilt often didn't even get far enough to play Russell. He was on the Warriors for 6 years, but they only made the Finals one time. And that's when there were like 5 teams in a conference.

    Look at his 1962-63 season for example. He averaged 44.8 pts and 24 boards. Those are cartoon-ish stats, but they didn't translate to wins. The Warriors went 31-49 that year. I get that he didn't have as great of a cast as Russel, but 31 wins?

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    Default Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Look at his 1962-63 season for example. He averaged 44.8 pts and 24 boards. Those are cartoon-ish stats, but they didn't translate to wins. The Warriors went 31-49 that year. I get that he didn't have as great of a cast as Russel, but 31 wins?
    You asked a question earlier about Jordan that is pretty applicable here. What else did he need to do? His freakish stats not translating to wins indicates that his teammates were horrible, not that Russell was better.

    Sure, one player is equal to 20% of production on the floor, but that means 80% comes from others. How many championships someone wins, or how many games they win, doesn't tell me much about how good an individual player was, it tells me how good his team was.

    I'm not arguing one way or the other, I think UB's rule about not commenting on people you haven't seen is a pretty good rule for this type of discussion, I'm just pointing out the flaws in the argument.

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    Default Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I'm not for sure. He did have Elgin Baylor for 3 of his 5 Laker years and Jerry West for all 5 of them.
    Baylor was over the hill and nothing like the player he once was. West was still great and many people think that one of those teams was the best of all time.... ...

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    Default Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

    I've always heard that Russell was willing to give up personal stats to win, and I've always taken that to mean that he didn't score as much as he could have, but just looking over his career numbers and something just jumps out at me like a sore thumb.

    Russell never shot better than 50% in any season. His personal high was 46.7%.
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...russebi01.html

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    Default Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I agree. Championships matter far more in basketball than football or baseball when it comes to ranking all-time greats. In football you can only play one side of the field and in baseball you can only bat 4 or 5 times. But in basketball you have the opportunity to dominate both ends of the court.

    Winning only two championships in an era where there were like 14 teams just isn't enough to be labeled a top 3 all time player, IMO. I don't see how anyone could put him over Jordan when Jordan won 6 championships in an era where there were far more teams, not to mention a far better talent pool of athletes. There was literally nothing else that Jordan could have accomplished in his career. The man did it all. With Wilt OTOH, there will always be a "yeah, but....." Wilt is not top 3.

    Now I obviously never saw Wilt play, but I'm going to presume that the majority of the people commenting here didn't either. He last played in 1973, so you'd have to be in your early 50's to have any memory of him. You'd have to be closer to 60 to have any clear memory of him during the prime of his career.
    I saw him as a rookie in 1956, I think. I saw Wilt through his entire career. He didn't win many championships because Russell had all of the talent on his team. When Wilt had talent with him like Hal Greer and Jerry West, those teams are considered two of the best of all time. Jordan didn't win until Pippin and others joined him. Wilt never had a cast like that. Wilt routinely led the league in rebounding and would have led in blocked shots if that stat had been kept. He could score 50 points per game or lead the league in assists if that is what his team needed from him..... I would start any all time team with Wilt and have no worry that I was right. ...

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    Default Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    It took Russell and seven other HoF'ers to beat Wilt's one-man teams in Philly and SF.
    What about all of the other teams that beat Wilt when he was a Warrior? It's not like he was making it to the Finals every year, only to lose to the loaded Celtics teams. He only played the Celtics once in his six year tenure as a Warrior, meaning that it was the other teams in the West who were usually knocking Wilt out in the playoffs. So clearly it didn't take 7 Celtics HOFers to knock Wilt out. Most of the time it took much less. Were the other teams in the West really that much better than the Warriors? Or is it possible that one player shooting the ball 34 times a game is not exactly the best formula for winning?

    If one is going to rank Wilt as high as 1-3, then they inevitably have to make excuses for his glaring lack of postseason success. There's no excuses needed for Jordan. The man literally accomplished every single thing an athlete could accomplish. Are championships the only important factor? Of course not. But we're talking about basketball, a sport where one player can dominate the game on both ends. If we're talking all-time greats, then I'm going to give the edge to the player with 6 rings over the one with 2, especially when the one with 6 played in a much deeper era against far better athletes.

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    Default Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

    I'm going to use a Bill Simmons argument here for Wilt.

    One more note on this: we get carried away with basketball statistics nowadays, as evidenced by the new book that rated Allen Iverson as the 90th best player in the league during his MVP season. Why make it so complicated? Just add up the point, rebound and assist averages for franchise guys during the playoffs: If the number tops 42, you're probably talking about a pantheon guy. You could even call it the 42 Club, just as exclusive as the Five-Timer Club on SNL, only without the NBA equivalent of Elliott Gould.



    Since it's my idea, I only allowed guys who played 13 or more playoff games in one postseason to be eligible, since that's a legitimate sampling (more than a month of basketball at the highest level). Here's what the 42 Club looks like since the ABA/NBA merger in 1976:

    Michael Jordan (six times) -- 49.4 ('89); 50.7 ('90); 45.9 ('91); 46.5 ('92); 47.8 ('93); 43.8 ('97)
    Shaquille O'Neal (four times) -- 43.6 ('98); 49.2 ('00); 49.0 ('01); 43.9 ('02)
    Larry Bird (four times) -- 42.0 ('81); 44.4 ('84); 43.4 ('86); 44.2 ('87)
    Moses Malone (twice) -- 43.0 ('81), 43.3 ('83)
    Magic Johnson (twice) -- 43.8 ('86), 42.5 ('91)
    Karl Malone (twice) -- 43.0 ('92), 42.9 ('94)
    Hakeem Olajuwon (twice) -- 44.2 ('94), 47.8 ('95)
    Tim Duncan (twice) -- 42.7 ('01), 45.4 ('03)
    Kareem Abdul-Jabbar -- 47.1 ('80)
    Charles Barkley -- 44.5 ('93)
    Kobe Bryant -- 42.8 ('01)
    Allen Iverson -- 43.7 ('01)
    Kevin Garnett -- 44.0 ('04)
    LeBron James -- 44.7 ('06)
    Dirk Nowitzki -- 45.1 ('06, ongoing)
    http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...simmons/060602

    Wilt had a season where he scored 62. 28ppg 30rpg 3apg.
    Russell's best was 54. 19ppg 30rpg 5apg

    Those are just ridiculous numbers, and not sure why they get diluted just because he wasn't good enough to overcome the rest of his teammates. If he choked during pressure situations, then that would change the ballgame, but looks like Wilt more than carried expectations.

    EDIT: And it's crazy to see these guys averaging 48mins per game some seasons (playoffs). Wilt actually averaged 48.5mins in 67-68.
    EDIT2: Wilt belongs in that 42pt club 11 times, out of 13. 10 of 13 for Russell.
    Last edited by Since86; 12-07-2012 at 04:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Gill View Post
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    Controversial opinion alert: Wilt Chamberlain is overrated. In interest of full-disclosure, I never saw the man play - way before my time (like, I presume many others in this thread). I would merely suggest that had he played in an era with Shaq, Kareem, Hakeem, even a guy like Ewing, many of these All-Time Greatest lists might look very different. He was a 7'2 giant playing in an era when the average height of a starting center was 6'7. Also, any list with Russell over Wilt is nonsensical. I understand the argument that Russell played on vastly superior teams, but 9 championships to 2 pretty much speaks for itself.

    Maybe one of the old-timers on here can set me straight, because I just don't get Wilt being a top 5 player all time.

    Wilt the Stilt was JUST AWESOME. He was so unbelieveably athletic, agile, and mobile. The greatest big man EVER!! He could be said the greatest BB player ever.

    The problem I have with this thread is that few posters on this board have seen players who played in the 50's 60's, or 70's. If you never saw them play, you are at a great disadvantage ranking players.

    Wilt was THE player in his time! He was head and shoulders above the rest. Chamberlain didn't have the quality of players surrounding him like Russell did, thus he didn't win Championships, but what he did do was make his team championship caliber contenders by himself. Most don't remember or know Wilt's 1st team was the Phiadelphia Warriors. Quick name another player on that team without goggling the answer. I watched many a game of Wilt's, and that's why I can say how GREAT he was!

    How many are aware after the NBA that Wilt played volleyball? He was an ATHLETE personified!

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    Default Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    What about all of the other teams that beat Wilt when he was a Warrior? It's not like he was making it to the Finals every year, only to lose to the loaded Celtics teams. He only played the Celtics once in his six year tenure as a Warrior, meaning that it was the other teams in the West who were usually knocking Wilt out in the playoffs. So clearly it didn't take 7 Celtics HOFers to knock Wilt out. Most of the time it took much less. Were the other teams in the West really that much better than the Warriors? Or is it possible that one player shooting the ball 34 times a game is not exactly the best formula for winning?

    If one is going to rank Wilt as high as 1-3, then they inevitably have to make excuses for his glaring lack of postseason success. There's no excuses needed for Jordan. The man literally accomplished every single thing an athlete could accomplish. Are championships the only important factor? Of course not. But we're talking about basketball, a sport where one player can dominate the game on both ends. If we're talking all-time greats, then I'm going to give the edge to the player with 6 rings over the one with 2, especially when the one with 6 played in a much deeper era against far better athletes.
    If Jordan had played against Wilt, he would have been reduced to a jump shooter. Wilt would not have let him score close to the basket. Jordan was a great leaper but so was Wilt and he was about 8 to 9 inches taller with longer arms...... Read what Russell had to say about Wilt. He begged his teammate not to make him angry because he had to try and guard him and he said Wilt could jump out of the arena...... Wilt got the job done in the playoffs when he had good teammates. Russell played with most all hall of famers. Wilt did not. Wilt dominated every team including the Celtics but his teammates were really wanting..... Put Wilt playing with Oscar Robertson and you would have had multiple championships right in Russells face. Oscar was great but he didn't do much in the playoffs until he joined Kareem and won a title as an old man. Put Wilt with Hal Greer and you have one of the great teams of all time. Put him with Jerry West and perhaps you have the greatest single year team and both Wilt and West were past their best days when that happened...... The NBA was stronger in those days because there were so few teams.... I also saw Wilt block a sky hook..... ...

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    Default Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    Wilt the Stilt was JUST AWESOME. He was so unbelieveably athletic, agile, and mobile. The greatest big man EVER!! He could be said the greatest BB player ever.

    The problem I have with this thread is that few posters on this board have seen players who played in the 50's 60's, or 70's. If you never saw them play, you are at a great disadvantage ranking players.

    Wilt was THE player in his time! He was head and shoulders above the rest. Chamberlain didn't have the quality of players surrounding him like Russell did, thus he didn't win Championships, but what he did do was make his team championship caliber contenders by himself. Most don't remember or know Wilt's 1st team was the Phiadelphia Warriors. Quick name another player on that team without goggling the answer. I watched many a game of Wilt's, and that's why I can say how GREAT he was!

    How many are aware after the NBA that Wilt played volleyball? He was an ATHLETE personified!
    I think Guy Rogers and Paul Arizan were on those teams..... ...

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    Default Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    If Jordan had played against Wilt, he would have been reduced to a jump shooter. Wilt would not have let him score close to the basket. Jordan was a great leaper but so was Wilt and he was about 8 to 9 inches taller with longer arms...... Read what Russell had to say about Wilt. He begged his teammate not to make him angry because he had to try and guard him and he said Wilt could jump out of the arena...... Wilt got the job done in the playoffs when he had good teammates. Russell played with most all hall of famers. Wilt did not. Wilt dominated every team including the Celtics but his teammates were really wanting..... Put Wilt playing with Oscar Robertson and you would have had multiple championships right in Russells face. Oscar was great but he didn't do much in the playoffs until he joined Kareem and won a title as an old man. Put Wilt with Hal Greer and you have one of the great teams of all time. Put him with Jerry West and perhaps you have the greatest single year team and both Wilt and West were past their best days when that happened...... The NBA was stronger in those days because there were so few teams.... I also saw Wilt block a sky hook..... ...

    I appreciate what you have to say on this because you saw him play and I didn't. You've offered some interesting insight. Thanks.

    And let me clarify that I'm not debating his all-time great status, because clearly he is one of the best ever. I was just debating his top 3 status and ChiJ having him ranked over 45.

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    Default Re: Where do you rate Kobe all time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I appreciate what you have to say on this because you saw him play and I didn't. You've offered some interesting insight. Thanks.

    And let me clarify that I'm not debating his all-time great status, because clearly he is one of the best ever. I was just debating his top 3 status and ChiJ having him ranked over 45.
    The first time I saw Wilt play (I was about 9 years old at the time), he played for the Harlem Globetrotters because he had to wait a year to turn pro. He was awesome. He did not clowning but he was making thunderous dunks and leading fast breaks. He was clearly the best athlete on that team..... ...

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