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Thread: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

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    Default Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    In our last game, Lance shot 3-4, scored 8 points, 4 rebounds, and had 4 assists and one turnover. I think everything but one rebound and the turnover came in the first half.

    After the turnover in the second half, Vogel sat Lance with over five minutes left in the third. He never returned.

    This is no way to treat a player, especially one that is performing well. I don't like the head games it may be causing.

    This is at least the second game where it seems like Lance gets benched because Paul George is having an absolutely lousy game. I guess Vogel feels the need to punish something but can't touch the golden child.

    Personally, I'm ready to see Lance moved to the second unit. Not because he isn't better than Green and Young. He clearly is. But because Lance has some serious skills and needs to be developing them, and he can't do it right now when Vogel has decreed that George Hill will run all pick and rolls and Lance will stand in the corner. Bad use of resources, Frank.

    Have Lance run the pick and roll while George Hill is on the bench. Free Lance. Let him develop his unique offensive game that is so needed for this team. Plus, Lance is going to the second unit anyway when Granger returns. (Certainly not the golden one, regardless of how bad he plays.) So Lance and the second unit might as well get used to each other.

    Maybe there is something else going on behind the curtain that we don't know about. I actually hope so; otherwise I have to conclude that Vogel is not that bright or has some axe to grind.
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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Lance should be with the starters, but he should definitely be more involved. Vogel is just not doing a good job with the rotations or how he is utilizing players that are out there. Force feeding Roy. How about we stop till he starts hitting shots consistently. Sam Young and DJ putting up way too many shots. DJ taking the last shot to end a quarter? Who thinks that is smart? Relegating Lance to sit in a corner when he's only been the most efficient shooter on the team outside West.

    Lance should be the primary ball handler cause he's at his best when he can create for himself and others. He had 8pts and 3 assists in the first quarter...about 8 min of play. Holy crap that was awesome. Hill is more of a scorer. How about Lance utilizes his handles and ability to get into the lane to set up players. Probably gets Hibbert easier looks. He can set up Hill to score more. The offense flows much more fluid when Lance is more involved. I see it. I think a lot of you see it. Not sure why Vogel doesn't see it. Just makes me think he would just rather not play Lance at all.

    Then he turned completely invisible after the 1st quarter. Maybe that's on Lance to step up more, but I'd say that is more by design. Lance didn't just have a TO, but I think he was lazy on D for consecutive possessions so Vogel pulled him.

    I love how everyone else on the team can play through bonehead mistakes. Green had something like 2 TOs in a matter of minutes and yet he stayed out there. The short leash on Lance, but nothing for any other player on the team is a complete joke. Especially when he's been playing more good than bad. I do think Lance needs to focus on the defense end more, and keep his focus. He'll lose focus for a short spurt and then Vogel sits him the rest of the way. I kinda see why Vogel would sit him, but he has clearly played way better than it has ever been. Sometimes you just need to let someone play through it in order for them to grow.
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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparhawk View Post
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    Lance should be the primary ball handler cause he's at his best when he can create for himself and others. He had 8pts and 3 assists in the first quarter...about 8 min of play. Holy crap that was awesome. Hill is more of a scorer.
    He scored all but maybe two because someone else created for him. He scored and got assists because of ball movement, not because he was creating for himself or others, at least not anymore than anyone else.

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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    I keep reading these threads, and keep wondering why it is never considered that maybe it was something Lance did, instead of ALWAYS being someone else's fault. Perhaps Lance is not running the plays the coach wants, or is not executing on defense the way he was instructed. I don't really know, but I think it is very narrow-minded to think it is NEVER anything Lance is doing or not doing. No team reduces a player's court time because the player is doing what he is supposed to, and yet we hear it is the coach's fault, or management just doesn't like him, or whatever else. Baffling.

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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    I keep reading these threads, and keep wondering why it is never considered that maybe it was something Lance did, instead of ALWAYS being someone else's fault. Perhaps Lance is not running the plays the coach wants, or is not executing on defense the way he was instructed. I don't really know, but I think it is very narrow-minded to think it is NEVER anything Lance is doing or not doing. No team reduces a player's court time because the player is doing what he is supposed to, and yet we hear it is the coach's fault, or management just doesn't like him, or whatever else. Baffling.
    Lance is hardly in the right place on offense and the guys need to tell him where to be basically every time down the court. I don't see what people see when they think he should be the starting PG. He can create for others with his penetration but in no way would he be capable of running an actual offense. But none of our wings provide the spark he does and we need to see what we have in him NOW before Granger gets back and he gets a permanent case of standing-in-a-corneritis. He needs the ball more and we should give him a shot at playing like Reke, Harden, Manu - ball dominant SGs.

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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    I keep reading these threads, and keep wondering why it is never considered that maybe it was something Lance did, instead of ALWAYS being someone else's fault. Perhaps Lance is not running the plays the coach wants, or is not executing on defense the way he was instructed. I don't really know, but I think it is very narrow-minded to think it is NEVER anything Lance is doing or not doing. No team reduces a player's court time because the player is doing what he is supposed to, and yet we hear it is the coach's fault, or management just doesn't like him, or whatever else. Baffling.
    I'm with you. I don't know specifically what it is, but I know the guy has had a lot of maturity issues in the past (from before the draft and during his earlier time here as well), and I don't believe he is considered to be particularly smart, either, and from watching him during the seasons and in summer league, he seems to wear his emotions on his sleeve and run his mouth, so it wouldn't surprise me at all that he has a short leash to help keep him in check and humble.

    It's a huge blessing we have Clark Kellogg around to mentor him. I think this is a case of people going wide-eyed over his best qualities and letting that blind them to the rest of the picture regarding this guy.

    I think Lance is just where he should be right now. He's playing with the starters, and that makes him the 5th best player on the floor, his talents complement the others, and he's not left out there too long too soon. Eventually he'll get more burn if he's earned it, but considering his past issues I'm not the least bit upset at Frank taking it slow.

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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by MAStamper View Post
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    I'm with you. I don't know specifically what it is, but I know the guy has had a lot of maturity issues in the past (from before the draft and during his earlier time here as well), and I don't believe he is considered to be particularly smart, either, and from watching him during the seasons and in summer league, he seems to wear his emotions on his sleeve and run his mouth, so it wouldn't surprise me at all that he has a short leash to help keep him in check and humble.

    It's a huge blessing we have Clark Kellogg around to mentor him. I think this is a case of people going wide-eyed over his best qualities and letting that blind them to the rest of the picture regarding this guy.

    I think Lance is just where he should be right now. He's playing with the starters, and that makes him the 5th best player on the floor, his talents complement the others, and he's not left out there too long too soon. Eventually he'll get more burn if he's earned it, but considering his past issues I'm not the least bit upset at Frank taking it slow.
    Agreed, the only drastic change I would like to see is make him the back-up PG. I would also like Frank to test out playing Hibbert and Mahinmi at the same time it is a mismatch waiting to happen when playing against shorter non-stretch 4s power forwards, but I think Frank is too slow to change to try either until Granger comes back.

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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    I just don't think he's meant to be a PG. He's a ball-dominant SG. Good with the ball, scorer, passing, now becoming a shooter, but not a leader, floor-general, play caller type. Not to mention he's better at guarding wings than PGs.

    As for changing the bench, once Danny comes back, it's tricky because I really don't want Lance at the 1, yet I wish we could do better than DJ, Green, and Tyler. I'm open to trying Ben/Lance/Sam/Jeff/Ian, but I'm just not sure Ben or Jeff is going to bring more than DJ or Tyler.

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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by MAStamper View Post
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    I just don't think he's meant to be a PG. He's a ball-dominant SG. Good with the ball, scorer, passing, now becoming a shooter, but not a leader, floor-general, play caller type. Not to mention he's better at guarding wings than PGs.
    Agreed, but I would rather have a ball dominant SG as our back-up PG than Augustin.

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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    His defensive rotations on defense are making Tyler look adept. It wasn't his offense, it was his off the ball rotations. When the pnr is applied our opposite wing is suppose to crash the paint. He is not doing that. At all. You all seem to think that the pnr roll problems are solely on Hill and Roy. And that is not the case. pnr defense is on the entire team.

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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Agreed, but I would rather have a ball dominant SG as our back-up PG than Augustin.
    Yeah, I hear that.

    It's too bad he seems like a headcase because I'd otherwise love to pick up Delonte West to play at the backup 1.

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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by MAStamper View Post
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    Yeah, I hear that.

    It's too bad he seems like a headcase because I'd otherwise love to pick up Delonte West to play at the backup 1.
    true, true, but if Delonte West was not a headcase, he would have a job already someplace else. The guy can play.

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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Agreed, but I would rather have a ball dominant SG as our back-up PG than Augustin.
    Maybe its just semantics. I'm not as concerned about who the "point guard" is as who is running the pick and roll. If some point guard needs to bring the ball up and pass it to Lance, than fine, although using DJ in this way simply hurts your defense and perhaps unnecessarily. But Lance is the second best player on our team (if not the best) for running the pick and roll. Let's put the ball in his hands and utilize him.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    I keep reading these threads, and keep wondering why it is never considered that maybe it was something Lance did, instead of ALWAYS being someone else's fault.
    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Maybe there is something else going on behind the curtain that we don't know about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    I think it is very narrow-minded to think it is NEVER anything Lance is doing or not doing.
    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Maybe there is something else going on behind the curtain that we don't know about.
    Did you read my entire post?
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Lance is still learning. He's young and will have his off nights. You can't blame Vogel for that and then he would be blamed if he kept giving him the ball and Lance continued to be in a slump.

    Lance is letting the game come to him. He looked better against the Warriors and hopefully he'll break out of the scoring slump.

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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Trophy View Post
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    Lance is still learning. He's young and will have his off nights. You can't blame Vogel for that and then he would be blamed if he kept giving him the ball and Lance continued to be in a slump.

    Lance is letting the game come to him. He looked better against the Warriors and hopefully he'll break out of the scoring slump.
    Slump? There's no slump.

    It's just whether he gets the ball or not.

    Man, it seems like people get his performance confused with Paul George.
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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Trophy View Post
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    Lance is still learning. He's young and will have his off nights. You can't blame Vogel for that and then he would be blamed if he kept giving him the ball and Lance continued to be in a slump.

    Lance is letting the game come to him. He looked better against the Warriors and hopefully he'll break out of the scoring slump.
    Well last game he didnt play much after shooting 3/4 and 8 points game. Slump is when you're getting a chance to score and play.... which at this point he is not.
    Last edited by sportfireman; 12-03-2012 at 01:26 PM.
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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Did you read my entire post?
    Yes, I did. But it wasn't a case of my wanting to single you out. That wasn't my intention at all. It was just a response to the number of threads that have everyone from the coaches to management being co-conspirators in some grand scheme to make sure Lance fails. I'm sure you've read them too.

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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    We know Lance had at least 1 supporter in the FO. That supporter is now gone. I'm sure that means something... but I'm not sure what...
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    I feel like if you could wait for two years for Lance to have the opportunity from Bird and Vogel to start playing significant minutes, then you can wait through this season for everyone to feel out what he is capable of. I really like Lance's progression and think he can contribute a bit now and more later. But, let's remember, going head-first into adult responsibilities and pressures nearly cost this very talented kid his career. He's young. Let's take our time with him, let him marinate. You start putting him in an uncomfortable position, you'll spend the rest of the season arguing whether PG or Lance is the biggest disappointment in franchise history.

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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    We know Lance had at least 1 supporter in the FO. That supporter is now gone. I'm sure that means something... but I'm not sure what...
    That means nothing, he is getting more playing time than ever before. The truth is simple. He has improved greatly, but he really isn't ready to be a full time starter (none of our bench is). He also has some bad habits that have consistently resulted in bad fouls, or easy high percentage baskets. He is getting there, but it isn't going to happen overnight. I don't think Vogel has a short leash on Lance at all, but it is more that he views Lance as more of a situational player. If the team needs better wing defense I would expect his minutes to decline in favor of Young. Which is probably Young played as many minutes as Lance. Agree or disagree with that decision, but I think that is a much more likely scenario when the other team is shooting as well as the Warriors were at times, than Vogel having him on a very short leash or that there is some conspiracy against him now that Bird is gone.

    This isn't to say that Vogel doesn't have him on a shorter leash than others, but from my point of view this seems to only happen when Lance starts to get overly emotional and frustrated.

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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by AesopRockOn View Post
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    I feel like if you could wait for two years for Lance to have the opportunity from Bird and Vogel to start playing significant minutes, then you can wait through this season for everyone to feel out what he is capable of. I really like Lance's progression and think he can contribute a bit now and more later. But, let's remember, going head-first into adult responsibilities and pressures nearly cost this very talented kid his career. He's young. Let's take our time with him, let him marinate. You start putting him in an uncomfortable position, you'll spend the rest of the season arguing whether PG or Lance is the biggest disappointment in franchise history.
    I'm not thanking this because I don't agree, but I did want to acknowledge that I think it's a valid position to take.
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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by MAStamper View Post
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    I just don't think he's meant to be a PG. He's a ball-dominant SG. Good with the ball, scorer, passing, now becoming a shooter, but not a leader, floor-general, play caller type. Not to mention he's better at guarding wings than PGs.

    As for changing the bench, once Danny comes back, it's tricky because I really don't want Lance at the 1, yet I wish we could do better than DJ, Green, and Tyler. I'm open to trying Ben/Lance/Sam/Jeff/Ian, but I'm just not sure Ben or Jeff is going to bring more than DJ or Tyler.
    I don't think that Lance is a true PG ( like DJ is ). I agree with most people that he is more of a ball-dominant SG that is much better at creating than DJ is. This means that he has to have the ball in his hands in order to be more effective....which would ultimately mean that he has to be the Backup PG when he's on the floor.

    Having DJ and Lance on the floor at the same time would automatically make Lance the same type of Player that he is now when he starts.....standing at the 3pt line waiting for someone to pass to him. I am more inclined to believe that our bench would end up being DJ/Lance/Green/Hansbrough/Mahinmi when Granger returns....but I honestly would prefer Lance/Green/Young/Hansbrough/Mahinmi. Having Lance as the ONLY guy that would be running the point would be the only way to really make him IMHO more effective. Having him stand at the 3pt line waiting for a pass is useless.
    Last edited by CableKC; 12-03-2012 at 07:18 PM.
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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by AesopRockOn View Post
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    .[B] You start putting him in an uncomfortable position, you'll spend the rest of the season arguing whether PG or Lance is the biggest disappointment in franchise history.


    You must be too young to remember Austin Croshere, Jonathan Bender, and Roy Hibbert.

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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by AesopRockOn View Post
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    I feel like if you could wait for two years for Lance to have the opportunity from Bird and Vogel to start playing significant minutes, then you can wait through this season for everyone to feel out what he is capable of. I really like Lance's progression and think he can contribute a bit now and more later. But, let's remember, going head-first into adult responsibilities and pressures nearly cost this very talented kid his career. He's young. Let's take our time with him, let him marinate. You start putting him in an uncomfortable position, you'll spend the rest of the season arguing whether PG or Lance is the biggest disappointment in franchise history.
    I agree with you...I have no problem letting him grow into that role....the problem is that we have 4.5 months to evaluate whether this is a role that he should be taking on. This very question should have been asked and answered last season or even the season before than....not the season before his contract is up.

    At this point....given how DJ is doing at the point.....I am more inclined to throw Lance into the deep end of the pool now just to see if he can sink or swim as the Backup PG......rather than not FULLY know whether he can do it or not....and then sign him to a long term contract and HOPE that he figures it out.

    The reality is that we no longer have the luxury of letting him "marinate", the FO has 4.5 months to evaluate whether him. The Coaching Staff either has to "stick him in the oven" to see if he turns out to be "Angus Steak" or leave him in the fridge and see if we've overpaid for "Hamburger".
    Last edited by CableKC; 12-03-2012 at 08:26 PM.
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    By Return to Glory in forum Indiana Pacers
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    Last Post: 07-25-2010, 10:06 AM

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