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Thread: Pacers/Trail Blazers postgame

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    How does Roy stack up in the Defensive Player of the Year race? No shot or simply long-shot?
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    Default Re: Pacers/Trail Blazers postgame

    Quote Originally Posted by xIndyFan View Post
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    props to Gerald Green. Real nice game by him. Good defensive rotations and focus. Caused one 24-second violation all by himself.
    Our defensive rotations are getting SOOO much better by the game. Our wings are really starting to find the right spots and the right lanes defensively. There movements are so much more methodical. It is all coming together. We are starting to hit some shots more consistently. The shots that were bouncing of the rim the first couple of weeks are beginning to fall. Our spacing and off-the-ball movement is becoming much better, especially since we have added a lot more back door cuts for the bigs to work off and the PGs to lob to. I am really liking the way we are looking. I think our offensive ball movement is so much less stagnant and a lot of that has to do with confidence. So much of that confidence comes from knowing what their roles are and what they need to look for in match-ups. Vogel has really done a nice job with his rotations lately, IMO. The wing situation up to this point has been a couple of guys fighting for playing time and he has definitely pushed these to work harder to know their stuff and it is paying off. I am REALLY thinking this team is going to be a top contender to come out of the East. There are legitimately about five teams that could get there if they are playing well come playoffs. We need to keep playing "Spurs-like" basketball. Focus on minimizing our mistakes and our oppenents' opportunities off of them. The last couple of games we have really made progress. Cutting cable and getting internet LP was the best TV decision I have made in a long time.
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    Default Re: Pacers/Trail Blazers postgame

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    Because they do the same things. Paul and Granger both would be better off playing with a ball handler at the SG position. And yes, Granger at this point is the better post player, but he's not great at it. It's not like Paul couldn't become as good or probably even better if we asked him to. Danny's basically a jump shooter like Paul without the passing ability and with an even worse handle. They're redundant on the offensive end.

    My point was that they aren't redundant because they're both very good at lots of different things. Using your logic, Granger is redundant with every SF or SG in the league with the exception of combo-guard types. And if we get one of those for our SG, well we already have one in our PG and we are thus redundant at our guard spots.

    LeBron James and Dwyane Wade are the definition of redundant players, and I know they are just terrible together. /sarcasm The only real difference is that LeBron is better. There's nothing wrong with stacking up on a couple of players who are both very good offensively and very good defensively.
    Last edited by aamcguy; 12-06-2012 at 01:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Trail Blazers postgame

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    My point was that they aren't redundant because they're both very good at lots of different things. Using your logic, Granger is redundant with every SF or SG in the league with the exception of combo-guard types. And if we get one of those for our SG, well we already have one in our PG and we are thus redundant at our guard spots.

    [B]LeBron James and Dwyane Wade are the definition of redundant players, and I know they are just terrible together. /sarcasm [B]The only real difference is that LeBron is better. There's nothing wrong with stacking up on a couple of players who are both very good offensively and very good defensively.
    Lebron and Wade even though they won a championship are still a pair that don't match well, I think they both can do better with players that complement them.

    Regarding Danny/George, the Pacers for me to compete (one of this day) they need to have a player in that starting unit that can do things that PG/Danny can't do.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Trail Blazers postgame

    Have y'all read this yet? http://www.eightpointsnineseconds.co...t-the-blazers/

    If PG keeps getting better at this, which it seems like he's doing every game, then it would seem him and Granger compliment each other pretty well.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Trail Blazers postgame

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I'm thinking the same thing, hopefully it doesn't become a Harden situation were they have to trade him because they can't pay him.

    Can anybody explain how that works? Hibbert 14mil, Hill 8mil, West 12mil?, Ian 4mil, Green 3 mil and Danny 14, can the Pacers pay Paul George anything close to what Batum is making?

    A total of 57mil for all those players mentioned without Paul George.
    If we don't pick up the qualifying offers to Tyler and Pendergraft next year, let Ben, Lance and OJA leave, we can make PG a pretty good offer on our own. If we let DWest walk and move Granger to the 4 spot with Plumlee and/or Mahinmi doing backup, we can make him a longer term extension/salary offer. PG is ours for next year either way. The big choice, IMO, is whether we lose West after this season and/or Danny after next season.Unless the Ps want to go deep into LT in the next 2/4 years, we can't keep evryone.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Trail Blazers postgame

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Lebron and Wade even though they won a championship are still a pair that don't match well, I think they both can do better with players that complement them.

    Regarding Danny/George, the Pacers for me to compete (one of this day) they need to have a player in that starting unit that can do things that PG/Danny can't do.
    I agree that they still don't match very well. But because of how talented they are, they still make it work. Fortunately for us, even though PG and Granger aren't as good as either of Miami's two players, the parts of their games that overlap don't involve them both wanting to be the guy that dominates the ball and runs the offense. You have two guys who can do some similar things, but won't get in each other way. It's not like both will take 20-30 shots every night when Granger's back; they can both take 12-15.

    Both can create for themselves, but both also know how to get open to take advantage of guys drawing the defense in. Which is something that honestly LBJ and Wade lacked when they first teamed up.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Trail Blazers postgame

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    I agree that they still don't match very well. But because of how talented they are, they still make it work. Fortunately for us, even though PG and Granger aren't as good as either of Miami's two players, the parts of their games that overlap don't involve them both wanting to be the guy that dominates the ball and runs the offense. You have two guys who can do some similar things, but won't get in each other way. It's not like both will take 20-30 shots every night when Granger's back; they can both take 12-15.

    Both can create for themselves, but both also know how to get open to take advantage of guys drawing the defense in. Which is something that honestly LBJ and Wade lacked when they first teamed up.
    I'm just reporting the numbers. It's clear Paul's playing better at SF, and it's not even close. Therefor they are redundant if their best position is the same and mostly do the same things on the court. I don't buy into a wings a wing philosophy that most people do around here. There's a reason Paul's playing better next to Lance than Green. There's a reason he's defending SFs better than SGs. It's a small sample size, but it doesn't surprise me at all. I've been saying this would happen for a year, and it's beginning to look like I'm not as foolish as some thought. He's not a SG.

    As for Danny, he's never taken less then 16 shots a game. If when he comes back he takes 12-15 good shots a game I won't have a problem, but if he's the usual 26% usage, 10% assist Danny then I'll continue to say he's holding Paul back. Do we really want to see Paul revert to doing Lance's job on offense? I don't. We need him to continue his development and become the best player he can be if we want to have any chance at competing with the contenders. Playing in this offense and playing SG alongside Danny has slowed that development down IMO. I'd hate to see him become the 4th or 5th option again. Would that make the team better now? Probably, but not in the long run.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Trail Blazers postgame

    If he draws the best defender and defends the biggest threat, then what exactly is the difference between him playing SG and SF?

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    Default Re: Pacers/Trail Blazers postgame

    Quote Originally Posted by cgg View Post
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    If he draws the best defender and defends the biggest threat, then what exactly is the difference between him playing SG and SF?
    There isn't one IMO as long as the team is balanced, and it's not if we have no real facilitators 1-3 in the starting lineup. When Danny comes back I'm afraid Paul's usage rate will drop, and he'll be back to defending strictly SGs and being defended by SGs which is not in his best interest IMO. Either way I'll be rooting for them even if they are a flawed team.
    Last edited by CJ Jones; 12-07-2012 at 06:11 AM.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Trail Blazers postgame

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    I'm just reporting the numbers. It's clear Paul's playing better at SF, and it's not even close.
    What are these "numbers" you speak of? What's your basis of comparison?

    I'll grant that Paul's playing better this year than last, but I've seen no indication that it's his position that's made the difference.
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    Default Re: Pacers/Trail Blazers postgame

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    What are these "numbers" you speak of? What's your basis of comparison?

    I'll grant that Paul's playing better this year than last, but I've seen no indication that it's his position that's made the difference.
    http://www.82games.com/1213/12IND7.HTM

    Those are his numbers not counting the last 2 games. He had a PER of 18 at SF before his 0 and 4 games, and I'd expect it to go back up close to 17 after his last 2 really good games. He's been awful at SG this year though, both offensively and defensively.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Trail Blazers postgame

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    http://www.82games.com/1213/12IND7.HTM

    Those are his numbers not counting the last 2 games. He had a PER of 18 at SF before his 0 and 4 games, and I'd expect it to go back up close to 17 after his last 2 really good games. He's been awful at SG this year though, both offensively and defensively.
    So basically you're saying that he plays better next to Lance than he does Young or Green. I can agree with that. But I also think that applies to every other starter; it's not just Paul George's game. It's not like a video game where if you stick a SG in your PF slot he's going to be guarded by the opposing team's PF. I understand that with SG/SF it's more subtle than that, but that's kind of what my point is. The position he's playing on 82games.com seems to be determined by who he's on the court with, which doesn't really determine who's guarding Paul and who Paul is guarding in actuality.

    Unless they're playing a very small SG, Paul George typically guards the best wing player and is defended by the best wing player. You may be right that he will play better primarily as a SF, but I don't think that the stat you are using for support isolates the instance well enough.

    Think correlation vs. causation.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Trail Blazers postgame

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    http://www.82games.com/1213/12IND7.HTM

    Those are his numbers not counting the last 2 games. He had a PER of 18 at SF before his 0 and 4 games, and I'd expect it to go back up close to 17 after his last 2 really good games. He's been awful at SG this year though, both offensively and defensively.
    Come on, we both know that's not legit. You don't have a big enough sample size to even begin to make the claims you're making. Forget "correlation is not causation," you're not even proving correlation.

    I like 82games, but if they're claiming that subbing Gerald Green for Stephenson is switching George back and forth from the 2 to the 3, then they're simply wrong. George is defending the other team's top wing scorer, no matter what their position. And he's playing the same spot on offense either way.

    And NONE of this proves that Paul George can't do this next to Danny Granger.
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    Default Re: Pacers/Trail Blazers postgame

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    http://www.82games.com/1213/12IND7.HTM

    Those are his numbers not counting the last 2 games. He had a PER of 18 at SF before his 0 and 4 games, and I'd expect it to go back up close to 17 after his last 2 really good games. He's been awful at SG this year though, both offensively and defensively.
    You know the majority of Paul's minutes as a SG came at the beginning of the season, where no one played well.

    Also last year his PER as a SG was higher than SF. Personally I do not know how they decide when he is playing SG and when he is playing SF so I don't trust how it is split to be accurate.
    Last edited by Eleazar; 12-06-2012 at 10:53 PM.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Trail Blazers postgame

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Come on, we both know that's not legit. You don't have a big enough sample size to even begin to make the claims you're making. Forget "correlation is not causation," you're not even proving correlation.

    I like 82games, but if they're claiming that subbing Gerald Green for Stephenson is switching George back and forth from the 2 to the 3, then they're simply wrong. George is defending the other team's top wing scorer, no matter what their position. And he's playing the same spot on offense either way.

    And NONE of this proves that Paul George can't do this next to Danny Granger.
    We have the same opinion about what the stat isn't saying. But if you look at the 5 man units PG has been a part of he has spent a significant amount of time playing with Young and Green. So the stat does indicate that to this point PG has played better when Stephenson out there.

    It does say nothing about the position PG is playing, you are right. And it doesn't say whether Stephenson caused everybody to play better, whether the team has just played more minutes "getting it" with Stephenson in the starting lineup, or whether PG does in fact play better because Stephenson is playing as an obvious SG. It doesn't say whether this will continue to be the case.

    But the correlation still exists that he has played better with Lance up until this point. However, correlation is even less useful in sports than in other situations because a player's performance depends on so many different things.

    It most assuredly does not say that PG is a better SF than SG though.
    Last edited by aamcguy; 12-06-2012 at 11:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Trail Blazers postgame

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Come on, we both know that's not legit. You don't have a big enough sample size to even begin to make the claims you're making. Forget "correlation is not causation," you're not even proving correlation.

    I like 82games, but if they're claiming that subbing Gerald Green for Stephenson is switching George back and forth from the 2 to the 3, then they're simply wrong. George is defending the other team's top wing scorer, no matter what their position. And he's playing the same spot on offense either way.

    And NONE of this proves that Paul George can't do this next to Danny Granger.
    I questioned their stats on Lance last year and was told they do watch every play . If they're wrong why do people here and writers everywhere use their stats?

    Regardless, I said it was a small sample size, but we are nearing 1/4 of the way thru the season. Maybe the 1/2 way point would of been a better time bring it up. Also, I never said Paul couldn't do this with Danny. He probably can, but Danny and the team need to let/make him. I think it's tougher for him to play well on both ends being forced to play SG with Danny, but I think he's talented enough to make it work. However, my opinion at this point is they'd both be better players with ball handling, facilitating, SG. Aren't you a Monta guy? j/k

    [QUOTE=Eleazar;1541428]
    You know the majority of Paul's minutes as a SG came at the beginning of the season, where no one played well.
    Yeah he played a lot of those minutes early on with Green, but according to them he's played 21% of the SG minutes so he's had to have played some of those minutes when Young was on the floor. Again, according to them.

    edit: nope I'm wrong, they got Sam playing all his minutes at SG when Paul's on the floor. So, who knows how they tally up the minutes played by position?

    Also last year his PER as a SG was higher than SF. Personally I do not know how they decide when he is playing SG and when he is playing SF so I don't trust how it is split to be accurate.
    That could be because he only guarded the really good SFs last year until the very end of the season. And again, I don't make the stats I'm just reporting them. The numbers are so drastically different it almost makes me believe them or else I'll never be able to trust their stats again after a slip up like that . I always assumed they looked at the opponent counterpart or who you're guarding and whose guarding you. For instance, you could be playing 2 positions at once if you're guarding the SG and being guarded by the SF which is the case quite often with Paul. An example being the Warriors game when he (kinda) guarded Thompson while on the other end was being guarded by the rookie SF, but then again I don't know how they add up the total minutes. I'd like to know myself.
    Last edited by CJ Jones; 12-07-2012 at 01:33 AM.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Trail Blazers postgame

    I hate to be "that guy", but I will be.

    I don't need stats or frankly care what they say about George & Granger working together, I've seen it with my eyes & I can tell you it not only can work it works very well.

    When they are both in we become very long, very athletic & very diverse on offense.

    They both can play exceptional defense man to man, both are good rebounders, both are solid shooters, both can get to the rim and both are decent passers. Neither is a great ball handler but they can get by.

    Let's not play fantasy here, this is what we have to accept/deal with. There is no superstar shooting guard we going to bring in here to play next to either George or Granger so at the end of the day we have no choice but to hope beyond all hopes that this meshing works.

    I think it does now, I think last season proved it.


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    Default Re: Pacers/Trail Blazers postgame

    Fair enough, I looked at the stats for the first time a few games ago and thought it was an interesting stat, at least something to keep an eye on. I get killed on here all the time for stating my opinion without "facts", and here I find one that so far backs up my opinion and still get killed for it . It seems perfectly fine for their (82games) stats to be used to prove how great Danny's D was last year or the impact he made on the game because of his simple rating, but I guess I should expect that by now. Maybe they're wrong or I'm misunderstanding the numbers, but if not and Paul continues playing better on both ends at SF I think it'll prove he's more comfortable there. Long way to go before that though.
    Last edited by CJ Jones; 12-07-2012 at 05:42 AM.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Trail Blazers postgame

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    Fair enough, I looked at the stats for the first time a few games ago and thought it was an interesting stat, at least something to keep an eye on. I get killed on here all the time for stating my opinion without "facts", and here I find one that so far backs up my opinion and still get killed for it . It seems perfectly fine for their (82games) stats to be used to prove how great Danny's D was last year or the impact he made on the game because of his simple rating, but I guess I should expect that by now. Maybe they're wrong or I'm misunderstanding the numbers, but if not and Paul continues playing better on both ends at SF I think it'll prove he's more comfortable there. Long way to go before that though.
    There's nothing wrong with using stats, but the stat you are using doesn't really capture how the Pacers have used Paul. He guards the best wing regardless of position and plays as the dominant scoring wing regardless of who he's playing with. Even if they have them switching positions in the box score, he isn't changing his style of play.
    Last edited by aamcguy; 12-07-2012 at 06:48 AM.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Trail Blazers postgame

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    There's nothing wrong with using stats, but the stat you are using doesn't really capture how the Pacers have used Paul. He guards the best wing regardless of position and plays as the dominant scoring wing regardless of who he's playing with. Even if they have them switching positions in the box score, he isn't changing his style of play.
    If their stats are correct then he is changing his level of play depending on what position he plays and defends. I'm just not sure how they determine what position it is he's playing.

    Common sense says he should be able to use his limited dribbling ability, speed, and quickness better against SFs. I can't prove it yet even if those numbers are correct, but IMO until he develops a post game he'll always be more successful (on both ends) against guys his size, but like Peck said it doesn't really matter because we got these guys for at least a couple more years. Let's hope they figure it out. I know a way we might make it work...

    Free Lance!!!1

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    Default Re: Pacers/Trail Blazers postgame

    Or it could just mean that when he is guarded by a SG the reason a SG is guarding him is because they are the best wing defender on the team. Without Granger it doesn't make sense for teams to put a SG on George unless he is a vastly superior defender to the SF.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Trail Blazers postgame

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Or it could just mean that when he is guarded by a SG the reason a SG is guarding him is because they are the best wing defender on the team. Without Granger it doesn't make sense for teams to put a SG on George unless he is a vastly superior defender to the SF.
    Well, it also makes sense to put their best defender on George because Lance just stands in the corner.
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    Default Re: Pacers/Trail Blazers postgame

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    We have the same opinion about what the stat isn't saying. But if you look at the 5 man units PG has been a part of he has spent a significant amount of time playing with Young and Green. So the stat does indicate that to this point PG has played better when Stephenson out there.
    More specifically, the 5-man unit that Paul George is a part of is better when Stephenson is in it as opposed to Young and Green. My eyes tell me the same thing.

    I attribute that to Stephenson being a better player than those two guys, and a better fit in the starting lineup.

    I expect the 5-man unit to be even better if/when Granger comes back healthy.
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  32. #100
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers/Trail Blazers postgame

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    Fair enough, I looked at the stats for the first time a few games ago and thought it was an interesting stat, at least something to keep an eye on. I get killed on here all the time for stating my opinion without "facts", and here I find one that so far backs up my opinion and still get killed for it . It seems perfectly fine for their (82games) stats to be used to prove how great Danny's D was last year or the impact he made on the game because of his simple rating, but I guess I should expect that by now. Maybe they're wrong or I'm misunderstanding the numbers, but if not and Paul continues playing better on both ends at SF I think it'll prove he's more comfortable there. Long way to go before that though.
    Hey, sorry if I was too hard on ya. In general, I completely agree that stats are a good thing. In this case, though, I think watching the games makes it pretty clear: subbing Gerald Green for Lance doesn't make Paul George move to a different position. To the extent that there's a difference between SG and SF, Paul George has been playing SF exclusively all year.
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