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Thread: Hibbert and the Law Of Verticality

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    The Mole ColeTheMole's Avatar
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    Default Hibbert and the Law Of Verticality

    http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2012/1...f-verticality/

    CHICAGO – Tom Thibodeau called it a train wreck. Frank Vogel, though, took the high road, so to speak, talking about the collision near the basket, near the end of the Indiana Pacers’ 80-76 victory over Chicago at the United Center, as a “fundamental of verticality.”

    It just so happened that Pacers center Roy Hibbert, exercising his verticality, sent Bulls forward Luol Deng into a position of horizontality.

    Here’s the situation: Chicago trailed 78-76 with 14.1 seconds left. Deng passed inbounds to Joakim Noah, then cut backdoor on Paul George and received a pass from the Bulls center. Hibbert hurried a couple of steps across the paint to meet Deng to the right of the rim. Deng was airborne and Hibbert went up. Straight up, arms extended.

    Bang! Serious body contact but no whistle. Deng went down as the crowd at United Center roared. Thibodeau threw up his arms. Hibbert wasn’t looking for a charge and didn’t get one, despite Deng’s leading elbow, but he somehow got a blocked shot. David West grabbed the ball and was fouled. Sank them both, game over.

    “He’s the biggest reason why we lead the league in field-goal defense,” Vogel said a few minutes later. “He’s the best in the league at exercising the fundamental of verticality. Using his legs, getting off his feet and making a legal defensive play and earning a no-call.

    “You’re allowed to jump straight up, no matter where you are, and absorb contact. When he learned that and went away from trying to draw charges like he was earlier in his career, he went from not being able to stay on the court to being one of the best defensive centers in the NBA.”

    George, the best player on the floor with 34 points, said he didn’t mean to lose Deng but added: “Roy told me to send him into him. I knew I had a big back there, one of the best bigs in the league.”

    Thibodeau, who vented at the officials without penalty for what little time remained, saw something different.
    “In my eyes, he got wiped out,” the Bulls coach said. “I did not get an explanation. He had a layup. It was a train wreck. I’m not going to put it on the officials. A tough call went against us. We still have to get it done.”

    Knowing the law of verticality and getting it enforced in the heat of the moment, on the road, might be two different things. But Vogel said he never was worried.

    “It’s a legal defensive play that the refs have been honoring throughout the league with all big men,” the Pacers coach said. “It’s made the game a better game. Less guys are trying to draw charges and fall on the ground underneath athletes.”

    What matters for Indiana is that one big guy is doing less of that, after seeking out charges his first couple seasons.

    “Nah, I don’t take charges,” Hibbert said. “I used to, but [former Pacers big man] Jeff Foster told me it messed his back up and shaved a couple years off his career. So nah, I’m a 7-footer, I’m going to try to block a shot at the rim.”

    Hibbert, who is well-known for his intensive work in the summers, focused a lot on defense with the goal of being honored for it -– for the first time -– by the league’s coaches when this season ends.

    “I’m always around the rim,” Hibbert said, ” touching the man I’m guarding and still getting back. Y’know, 7-foot-2 centers from Georgetown, we always play defense.”

    Hibbert didn’t need to wag a finger to make the Dikembe Mutombo connection. He isn’t quite there yet, but he is averaging 3.1 blocks (compared to 2.0 last season) and this was his 12th consecutive game with at least two rejections. The Pacers began the night No. 1, holding teams to 40.8 percent shooting, then improved by limiting Chicago to 38.4.

    Said Hibbert: “That’s my staple. If my offense isn’t going, I always have to play defense. That’s not gonna slack.”
    DG for 3

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    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibbert and the Law Of Verticality

    Poor Jeff.

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    Default Re: Hibbert and the Law Of Verticality

    Back to Roy, if he sustains this level of defensive all year, he deserves to be on the all-nba defensive team. You don't have to be devoid of weaknesses to be honored in this way, you just need to be damned good overall, which he absolutely is right now.

    Hell, even Ben Wallace struggled to guard Jermaine O'Neal back in the day in the post; he was all-world with his help D and shot blocking, though, which is why he deservedly won DPOTY multiple times, and which is why he killed us once they had Rasheed there to guard JO and let Ben roam.

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    Default Re: Hibbert and the Law Of Verticality

    George, the best player on the floor with 34 points, said he didn’t mean to lose Deng but added: “Roy told me to send him into him. I knew I had a big back there, one of the best bigs in the league.”
    That's a really cool blurb, for some reason. I like the communication and confidence in this.

    I agree that it's sad about Jeff. I've never heard it put that clearly.
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    Default Re: Hibbert and the Law Of Verticality

    Many players did suffer injuries due to taking charge. Even Kobe said that he didn't like drawing charges because it's not healthy.

    For Roy, while I do criticize his poor offense, I commend his strong dedication on defense. I think he is the anchor that holds down the stifling defense of the Pacers.

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    Default Re: Hibbert and the Law Of Verticality

    I'm just glad the NBA has made the product better and more fair. Always hated guys that created contact by jumping into defenders who were going straight up and getting the foul call.

    And yes, I never liked Reggie's foot kick.

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    Default Re: Hibbert and the Law Of Verticality

    I am glad it was a no call, but I thought Roy's momentum carried him towards Deng. IMO, the reputation of being a high level defensive player created a situation where the benefit of the doubt went to Roy.


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    Default Re: Hibbert and the Law Of Verticality

    He's the only center in the NBA who does it and they don't call many fouls on that move, so keep doing it
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    Default Re: Hibbert and the Law Of Verticality

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    I am glad it was a no call, but I thought Roy's momentum carried him towards Deng. IMO, the reputation of being a high level defensive player created a situation where the benefit of the doubt went to Roy.
    When I watched the replay it actually seemed to me that Roy went straight up and even slightly back, definitely NOT toward Deng. The impression might come from the fact that Deng was moving when Roy went up, so it can look like they came together rather than Roy essentially holding horizontal position.
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    Default Re: Hibbert and the Law Of Verticality

    I just continue to be amazed by the amount of respect Roy keeps getting from the refs doing it, legal move or not.

    and speaking of, Pacers.com just posted this video of Roy's typical practice days.

    27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=9,0,47,0">
    Last edited by Heisenberg; 12-05-2012 at 01:36 PM.

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    Default Re: Hibbert and the Law Of Verticality

    I don't know or care what the actual rule is. it used to be (until this year) that if both the offensive player and defensive player were in the air, and there was contact the defensive player was called for the foul. Unless the offensive player obviously was jumping into the defending, but even then most of the time the defender was called. There has been a change this year - I think they are finally calling it as they are supposed to

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    Default Re: Hibbert and the Law Of Verticality

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I don't know or care what the actual rule is. it used to be (until this year) that if both the offensive player and defensive player were in the air, and there was contact the defensive player was called for the foul. Unless the offensive player obviously was jumping into the defending, but even then most of the time the defender was called. There has been a change this year - I think they are finally calling it as they are supposed to
    It seems to have gotten noticeably better this year, but Roy was doing this last year, too. His blocks are up 50%, so I'll say it's 50% better.

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    Default Re: Hibbert and the Law Of Verticality

    Said Hibbert: “That’s my staple. If my offense isn’t going, I always have to play defense. That’s not gonna slack.”
    I like this part of the interview.

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    Default Re: Hibbert and the Law Of Verticality

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I don't know or care what the actual rule is. it used to be (until this year) that if both the offensive player and defensive player were in the air, and there was contact the defensive player was called for the foul. Unless the offensive player obviously was jumping into the defending, but even then most of the time the defender was called. There has been a change this year - I think they are finally calling it as they are supposed to
    Agreed. The rule has always been the defender can jump straight up, and the defender always got called for the foul anyway.

    Likely because of the flopping rule stuff, they are really working to call this play correctly to stop offensive player flopping.

    I am really really really happy about it, because I hated players just getting calls running into guys.
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    The Mole ColeTheMole's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibbert and the Law Of Verticality

    I can't wait to see all of Chicago have a stroke the first time Derrick Rose jumps into straight-up Roy and doesn't get the foul.
    DG for 3

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    Default Re: Hibbert and the Law Of Verticality

    Quote Originally Posted by ColeTheMole View Post
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    I can't wait to see all of Chicago have a stroke the first time Derrick Rose jumps into straight-up Roy and doesn't get the foul.
    I would think they would just be scared of any sort of contact Rose would take.

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    Default Re: Hibbert and the Law Of Verticality

    Quote Originally Posted by ColeTheMole View Post
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    I can't wait to see David Stern have a stroke the first time Derrick Rose jumps into straight-up Roy and doesn't get the foul.
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    Default Re: Hibbert and the Law Of Verticality

    Quote Originally Posted by Vogel View Post
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    “You’re allowed to jump straight up, no matter where you are, and absorb contact. When he learned that and went away from trying to draw charges like he was earlier in his career, he went from not being able to stay on the court to being one of the best defensive centers in the NBA.”
    I'd like to know the story behind this. Who told him? Did he figure it out himself? Because this is arguably the most important thing that has happened to the Pacers in the past two years.
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    Default Re: Hibbert and the Law Of Verticality

    Quote Originally Posted by Coopdog23 View Post
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    He's the only center in the NBA who does it and they don't call many fouls on that move, so keep doing it
    Actually, the Warriors' EZ Eli did this pretty well in our game (though I was surprised he got the call as a rookie). I feel like bigs around the league not named Varejao have been employing this technique more and more.

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    Default Re: Hibbert and the Law Of Verticality

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    can't wait to see David Stern have a stroke the first time Dwyane Wade jumps into straight-up Roy and doesn't get the foul.
    Fixed again.

    Hell, I might have a stroke if that happens.
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    Default Re: Hibbert and the Law Of Verticality

    I'm sorry, but Thibs was being ridiculous about this.

    I'm not just saying that because I'm a Pacers fan, either. There are a couple of reasons I liked this call.

    1-It rewarded Roy/the Pacers for playing solid defense. Roy didn't come crashing down, he had quality position and protected it.

    2-It did NOT reward a player for simply jumping into a defender. Deng literally never had a chance to get his shot off, he was committed to drawing a foul. Therefore, he was not in scoring position when Hibbert went up, which forced Deng to create the contact instead of waiting for Roy to jump into him.

    As this picture shows, Roy is actually going backwards, while Deng is going into him. Take note of the placement of Dengs elbow (Clearly pushing Hibbert off)



    Finally, Deng lost the ball going up as he collided with Roy.

    There is no way that should have been whistled, and it was really a poor decision by Deng to go into Roy. Roy clearly got to his spot in time, goes straight up, and Deng flops backwards.

    Go to 2:00 minutes on the video if you want to see it. http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2012/1...f-verticality/

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    Default Re: Hibbert and the Law Of Verticality

    Quote Originally Posted by Derek2k3 View Post
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    There is no way that should have been whistled,[/url]
    Unless it was whistled a charge.

    Good post.
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    Default Re: Hibbert and the Law Of Verticality

    i'm not sure if its because how the refs are calling it or because it still early in the season, but looking at the blocking numbers this season compared to past seasons, they seem to be way up.

    12/13: http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/pl...sort/avgBlocks
    11/12: http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/pl...ocks/year/2012
    10/11: http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/pl...ocks/year/2011

    Hibbert is playing really well on defense. Definitely all-nba worthy, i doubt he will dethrone Howard, but second team for sure. While his offense is struggling, i much rather that than his defense being the one falling behind. He really is an anchor back there. He's been going straight up pretty consistently since last year at least and the refs have certainly noticed. I'm glad he's getting rewarded for it.

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    Default Re: Hibbert and the Law Of Verticality

    Nice video of his workouts. It's not translating on the offensive end this year, but the guy clearly works hard. I know most professional athletes work hard to one degree or another but I also know that not everyone does (or even has to) push himself to the limit. It always seems like Roy does.

    I almost wonder if he's in the weight room/on the court/ doing mma too much. There is a point where you're not really building stamina anymore, you're just tiring yourself out. But I guess I'll trust that Roy has decent advisers when it comes to managing that.
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    Default Re: Hibbert and the Law Of Verticality

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    i'm not sure if its because how the refs are calling it or because it still early in the season, but looking at the blocking numbers this season compared to past seasons, they seem to be way up.

    12/13: http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/pl...sort/avgBlocks
    11/12: http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/pl...ocks/year/2012
    10/11: http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/pl...ocks/year/2011

    Hibbert is playing really well on defense. Definitely all-nba worthy, i doubt he will dethrone Howard, but second team for sure. While his offense is struggling, i much rather that than his defense being the one falling behind. He really is an anchor back there. He's been going straight up pretty consistently since last year at least and the refs have certainly noticed. I'm glad he's getting rewarded for it.
    Oh, I wouldn't be shocked to see Howard lose it again. The national spotlight is so bright in LA, and he isn't holding up.

    It's the risk/reward of playing for a legendary team like LA. There's no moderation, things are usually either great or terrible. For Dwight, now, they're terrible.

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