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Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

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  • #16
    Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Originally posted by Trophy View Post
    Lance is still learning. He's young and will have his off nights. You can't blame Vogel for that and then he would be blamed if he kept giving him the ball and Lance continued to be in a slump.

    Lance is letting the game come to him. He looked better against the Warriors and hopefully he'll break out of the scoring slump.
    Slump? There's no slump.

    It's just whether he gets the ball or not.

    Man, it seems like people get his performance confused with Paul George.
    "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

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    • #17
      Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

      Originally posted by Trophy View Post
      Lance is still learning. He's young and will have his off nights. You can't blame Vogel for that and then he would be blamed if he kept giving him the ball and Lance continued to be in a slump.

      Lance is letting the game come to him. He looked better against the Warriors and hopefully he'll break out of the scoring slump.
      Well last game he didnt play much after shooting 3/4 and 8 points game. Slump is when you're getting a chance to score and play.... which at this point he is not.
      Last edited by sportfireman; 12-03-2012, 02:26 PM.
      I'm not perfect and neither are you.

      Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the esteem of Elohim,
      Ephisians 4: 32 And be kind towards one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as Elohim also forgave you in Messiah.

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      • #18
        Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

        Originally posted by McKeyFan View Post
        Did you read my entire post?
        Yes, I did. But it wasn't a case of my wanting to single you out. That wasn't my intention at all. It was just a response to the number of threads that have everyone from the coaches to management being co-conspirators in some grand scheme to make sure Lance fails. I'm sure you've read them too.

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        • #19
          Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

          We know Lance had at least 1 supporter in the FO. That supporter is now gone. I'm sure that means something... but I'm not sure what...
          Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

          ------

          "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

          -John Wooden

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          • #20
            Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

            I feel like if you could wait for two years for Lance to have the opportunity from Bird and Vogel to start playing significant minutes, then you can wait through this season for everyone to feel out what he is capable of. I really like Lance's progression and think he can contribute a bit now and more later. But, let's remember, going head-first into adult responsibilities and pressures nearly cost this very talented kid his career. He's young. Let's take our time with him, let him marinate. You start putting him in an uncomfortable position, you'll spend the rest of the season arguing whether PG or Lance is the biggest disappointment in franchise history.
            You Got The Tony!!!!!!

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            • #21
              Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

              Originally posted by Bball View Post
              We know Lance had at least 1 supporter in the FO. That supporter is now gone. I'm sure that means something... but I'm not sure what...
              That means nothing, he is getting more playing time than ever before. The truth is simple. He has improved greatly, but he really isn't ready to be a full time starter (none of our bench is). He also has some bad habits that have consistently resulted in bad fouls, or easy high percentage baskets. He is getting there, but it isn't going to happen overnight. I don't think Vogel has a short leash on Lance at all, but it is more that he views Lance as more of a situational player. If the team needs better wing defense I would expect his minutes to decline in favor of Young. Which is probably Young played as many minutes as Lance. Agree or disagree with that decision, but I think that is a much more likely scenario when the other team is shooting as well as the Warriors were at times, than Vogel having him on a very short leash or that there is some conspiracy against him now that Bird is gone.

              This isn't to say that Vogel doesn't have him on a shorter leash than others, but from my point of view this seems to only happen when Lance starts to get overly emotional and frustrated.

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              • #22
                Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

                Originally posted by AesopRockOn View Post
                I feel like if you could wait for two years for Lance to have the opportunity from Bird and Vogel to start playing significant minutes, then you can wait through this season for everyone to feel out what he is capable of. I really like Lance's progression and think he can contribute a bit now and more later. But, let's remember, going head-first into adult responsibilities and pressures nearly cost this very talented kid his career. He's young. Let's take our time with him, let him marinate. You start putting him in an uncomfortable position, you'll spend the rest of the season arguing whether PG or Lance is the biggest disappointment in franchise history.
                I'm not thanking this because I don't agree, but I did want to acknowledge that I think it's a valid position to take.
                "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

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                • #23
                  Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

                  Originally posted by MAStamper View Post
                  I just don't think he's meant to be a PG. He's a ball-dominant SG. Good with the ball, scorer, passing, now becoming a shooter, but not a leader, floor-general, play caller type. Not to mention he's better at guarding wings than PGs.

                  As for changing the bench, once Danny comes back, it's tricky because I really don't want Lance at the 1, yet I wish we could do better than DJ, Green, and Tyler. I'm open to trying Ben/Lance/Sam/Jeff/Ian, but I'm just not sure Ben or Jeff is going to bring more than DJ or Tyler.
                  I don't think that Lance is a true PG ( like DJ is ). I agree with most people that he is more of a ball-dominant SG that is much better at creating than DJ is. This means that he has to have the ball in his hands in order to be more effective....which would ultimately mean that he has to be the Backup PG when he's on the floor.

                  Having DJ and Lance on the floor at the same time would automatically make Lance the same type of Player that he is now when he starts.....standing at the 3pt line waiting for someone to pass to him. I am more inclined to believe that our bench would end up being DJ/Lance/Green/Hansbrough/Mahinmi when Granger returns....but I honestly would prefer Lance/Green/Young/Hansbrough/Mahinmi. Having Lance as the ONLY guy that would be running the point would be the only way to really make him IMHO more effective. Having him stand at the 3pt line waiting for a pass is useless.
                  Last edited by CableKC; 12-03-2012, 08:18 PM.
                  Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

                    Originally posted by AesopRockOn View Post
                    .[B] You start putting him in an uncomfortable position, you'll spend the rest of the season arguing whether PG or Lance is the biggest disappointment in franchise history.


                    You must be too young to remember Austin Croshere, Jonathan Bender, and Roy Hibbert.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

                      Originally posted by AesopRockOn View Post
                      I feel like if you could wait for two years for Lance to have the opportunity from Bird and Vogel to start playing significant minutes, then you can wait through this season for everyone to feel out what he is capable of. I really like Lance's progression and think he can contribute a bit now and more later. But, let's remember, going head-first into adult responsibilities and pressures nearly cost this very talented kid his career. He's young. Let's take our time with him, let him marinate. You start putting him in an uncomfortable position, you'll spend the rest of the season arguing whether PG or Lance is the biggest disappointment in franchise history.
                      I agree with you...I have no problem letting him grow into that role....the problem is that we have 4.5 months to evaluate whether this is a role that he should be taking on. This very question should have been asked and answered last season or even the season before than....not the season before his contract is up.

                      At this point....given how DJ is doing at the point.....I am more inclined to throw Lance into the deep end of the pool now just to see if he can sink or swim as the Backup PG......rather than not FULLY know whether he can do it or not....and then sign him to a long term contract and HOPE that he figures it out.

                      The reality is that we no longer have the luxury of letting him "marinate", the FO has 4.5 months to evaluate whether him. The Coaching Staff either has to "stick him in the oven" to see if he turns out to be "Angus Steak" or leave him in the fridge and see if we've overpaid for "Hamburger".
                      Last edited by CableKC; 12-03-2012, 09:26 PM.
                      Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

                        Originally posted by CableKC View Post
                        I agree with you...I have no problem letting him grow into that role....the problem is that we have 4.5 months to evaluate whether this is a role that he should be taking on. This very question should have been asked and answered last season or even the season before than....not the season before his contract is up.

                        At this point....given how DJ is doing at the point.....I am more inclined to throw Lance into the deep end of the pool now just to see if he can sink or swim as the Backup PG......rather than not FULLY know whether he can do it or not....and then sign him to a long term contract and HOPE that he figures it out.

                        The reality is that we no longer have the luxury of letting him "marinate", the FO has 4.5 months to evaluate whether him. The Coaching Staff either has to "stick him in the oven" to see if he turns out to be "Angus Steak" or leave him in the fridge and see if we've overpaid for "Hamburger".
                        Lance has one more year on his contract at below $1 million. We got time. Also if we would have "asked" last season or the season before he would have failed miserably.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

                          Somebody is going to have to explain to me what a point guard is. I keep seeing people say that Lance is not a point guard & I keep asking why?

                          Is he a point guard like Mark Jackson? No but then again Stephan Marbury wasn’t a point guard like Mark Jackson either but he was still a point guard.

                          Can he dribble? Yes. Can he pass? Yes. Can he run an offensive set? Yes.

                          Please don’t give me the “he can’t guard the oppositions point guard” because I’m telling you D.J. Augustin can’t guard that spot either.

                          Lance has the best court vision on the team and his ability to push the ball is second to none.

                          If he isn’t a point guard then Russell Westbrook isn’t a point guard (no I’m not trying to say Lance is anywhere close to Westbrook in talent but they share similar abilities).

                          Now as to how Frank has used him. This is tough because honestly the team is more fun to watch when he is on the floor and active but I also understand that he is still like that wild stallion that every now and then needs to be reigned in. Now where I question Frank is on how he let’s certain other members of our team get by with similar problems but doesn’t seem to pull them. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and say that maybe the other players have had some years to earn a few mistakes.

                          In all honesty when Danny comes back I wouldn’t mind turning the second unit over to Lance and tell him to do his thing. Honestly if Frank insists on playing the bench as a unit then IMO the skill sets should be used as well and that means Lance being the facilitator.


                          Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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                          • #28
                            Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

                            Originally posted by Peck View Post
                            Somebody is going to have to explain to me what a point guard is. I keep seeing people say that Lance is not a point guard & I keep asking why?
                            I think it's peoples nice way of saying Lance is too dumb to run the point. Which could be true, but many of those same people thought he was worthless and untalented as early as this preseason so I don't listen to them when it comes to Lance.

                            The only thing that was holding Lance back on offense was shooting and turnovers. He's shored those areas of his game up, and now players have to respect him. That should only make his PG game better. If he can ever get the mental thing down he'd be match up nightmare for most teams at PG. There's only a few that could guard him in the post. (that's if we ever decide to develop our guys overall games which I don't have much hope for)
                            Last edited by CJ Jones; 12-04-2012, 02:12 AM.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

                              Originally posted by Eleazar View Post
                              Lance has one more year on his contract at below $1 million. We got time. Also if we would have "asked" last season or the season before he would have failed miserably.
                              Oh.....I stand corrected about his contract. I thought that his contract was up after this season.

                              However, this does not change my preference to let him "sink or swim" at the backup PG spot now...rather than later.

                              This is because it is likely that we will need to fill the Backup PG spot during the 2013-2014 season. Given that it does not seem like DJ will be that backup PG beyond the 2012-2013 season ....this goes back to what I am saying about figuring out if Lance will be better suited to be the backup PG or not only.

                              My whole point is that we need to know this season as to whether Lance is better suited to be the backup PG or not....if the question has not been answered by then as to whether Lance can be the backup PG or not......then will the Pacers make a run at another Backup PG and possibly sign both Lance and this new Backup PG to a long term contract?

                              If Lance isn't best suited to be a backup PG, then great.....in the 2013-2014 offseason....the FO pursues another Backup PG for the long-term and then figures out what else to do with Lance ( if anything ).

                              If Lance is better suited to be a backup PG.....then there is no need to look for another backup PG in the 2013-2014 offseason.
                              Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

                                Originally posted by Peck View Post
                                Somebody is going to have to explain to me what a point guard is. I keep seeing people say that Lance is not a point guard & I keep asking why?
                                This. Never understood why people want to try to explain away his obvious point guard skills.

                                I also keep wondering what people are realistically expecting out of Vogel as far as Lance's playing time? He's getting an average of almost 25 minutes of burn a game, vs. 11 last year (so far). He's come close this year in matching his entire FGA #s from last year (already).

                                He's now in the starting lineup, and depending on his play and matchup closes out a game.

                                While he's done well with that so far, some of you are placing a standard on his amount of utilization that very few 2nd rounders in their 3rd year can match.

                                He's also 22 years old.

                                Seems like very good evolution for him given the circumstances.

                                I do believe he'll step up to higher expectations though, as per McKeyFan's original point.
                                Last edited by docpaul; 12-04-2012, 02:27 AM.

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