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    Default Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    In our last game, Lance shot 3-4, scored 8 points, 4 rebounds, and had 4 assists and one turnover. I think everything but one rebound and the turnover came in the first half.

    After the turnover in the second half, Vogel sat Lance with over five minutes left in the third. He never returned.

    This is no way to treat a player, especially one that is performing well. I don't like the head games it may be causing.

    This is at least the second game where it seems like Lance gets benched because Paul George is having an absolutely lousy game. I guess Vogel feels the need to punish something but can't touch the golden child.

    Personally, I'm ready to see Lance moved to the second unit. Not because he isn't better than Green and Young. He clearly is. But because Lance has some serious skills and needs to be developing them, and he can't do it right now when Vogel has decreed that George Hill will run all pick and rolls and Lance will stand in the corner. Bad use of resources, Frank.

    Have Lance run the pick and roll while George Hill is on the bench. Free Lance. Let him develop his unique offensive game that is so needed for this team. Plus, Lance is going to the second unit anyway when Granger returns. (Certainly not the golden one, regardless of how bad he plays.) So Lance and the second unit might as well get used to each other.

    Maybe there is something else going on behind the curtain that we don't know about. I actually hope so; otherwise I have to conclude that Vogel is not that bright or has some axe to grind.
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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Lance should be with the starters, but he should definitely be more involved. Vogel is just not doing a good job with the rotations or how he is utilizing players that are out there. Force feeding Roy. How about we stop till he starts hitting shots consistently. Sam Young and DJ putting up way too many shots. DJ taking the last shot to end a quarter? Who thinks that is smart? Relegating Lance to sit in a corner when he's only been the most efficient shooter on the team outside West.

    Lance should be the primary ball handler cause he's at his best when he can create for himself and others. He had 8pts and 3 assists in the first quarter...about 8 min of play. Holy crap that was awesome. Hill is more of a scorer. How about Lance utilizes his handles and ability to get into the lane to set up players. Probably gets Hibbert easier looks. He can set up Hill to score more. The offense flows much more fluid when Lance is more involved. I see it. I think a lot of you see it. Not sure why Vogel doesn't see it. Just makes me think he would just rather not play Lance at all.

    Then he turned completely invisible after the 1st quarter. Maybe that's on Lance to step up more, but I'd say that is more by design. Lance didn't just have a TO, but I think he was lazy on D for consecutive possessions so Vogel pulled him.

    I love how everyone else on the team can play through bonehead mistakes. Green had something like 2 TOs in a matter of minutes and yet he stayed out there. The short leash on Lance, but nothing for any other player on the team is a complete joke. Especially when he's been playing more good than bad. I do think Lance needs to focus on the defense end more, and keep his focus. He'll lose focus for a short spurt and then Vogel sits him the rest of the way. I kinda see why Vogel would sit him, but he has clearly played way better than it has ever been. Sometimes you just need to let someone play through it in order for them to grow.
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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparhawk View Post
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    Lance should be the primary ball handler cause he's at his best when he can create for himself and others. He had 8pts and 3 assists in the first quarter...about 8 min of play. Holy crap that was awesome. Hill is more of a scorer.
    He scored all but maybe two because someone else created for him. He scored and got assists because of ball movement, not because he was creating for himself or others, at least not anymore than anyone else.

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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    I keep reading these threads, and keep wondering why it is never considered that maybe it was something Lance did, instead of ALWAYS being someone else's fault. Perhaps Lance is not running the plays the coach wants, or is not executing on defense the way he was instructed. I don't really know, but I think it is very narrow-minded to think it is NEVER anything Lance is doing or not doing. No team reduces a player's court time because the player is doing what he is supposed to, and yet we hear it is the coach's fault, or management just doesn't like him, or whatever else. Baffling.

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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    I keep reading these threads, and keep wondering why it is never considered that maybe it was something Lance did, instead of ALWAYS being someone else's fault. Perhaps Lance is not running the plays the coach wants, or is not executing on defense the way he was instructed. I don't really know, but I think it is very narrow-minded to think it is NEVER anything Lance is doing or not doing. No team reduces a player's court time because the player is doing what he is supposed to, and yet we hear it is the coach's fault, or management just doesn't like him, or whatever else. Baffling.
    Lance is hardly in the right place on offense and the guys need to tell him where to be basically every time down the court. I don't see what people see when they think he should be the starting PG. He can create for others with his penetration but in no way would he be capable of running an actual offense. But none of our wings provide the spark he does and we need to see what we have in him NOW before Granger gets back and he gets a permanent case of standing-in-a-corneritis. He needs the ball more and we should give him a shot at playing like Reke, Harden, Manu - ball dominant SGs.

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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    I keep reading these threads, and keep wondering why it is never considered that maybe it was something Lance did, instead of ALWAYS being someone else's fault. Perhaps Lance is not running the plays the coach wants, or is not executing on defense the way he was instructed. I don't really know, but I think it is very narrow-minded to think it is NEVER anything Lance is doing or not doing. No team reduces a player's court time because the player is doing what he is supposed to, and yet we hear it is the coach's fault, or management just doesn't like him, or whatever else. Baffling.
    I'm with you. I don't know specifically what it is, but I know the guy has had a lot of maturity issues in the past (from before the draft and during his earlier time here as well), and I don't believe he is considered to be particularly smart, either, and from watching him during the seasons and in summer league, he seems to wear his emotions on his sleeve and run his mouth, so it wouldn't surprise me at all that he has a short leash to help keep him in check and humble.

    It's a huge blessing we have Clark Kellogg around to mentor him. I think this is a case of people going wide-eyed over his best qualities and letting that blind them to the rest of the picture regarding this guy.

    I think Lance is just where he should be right now. He's playing with the starters, and that makes him the 5th best player on the floor, his talents complement the others, and he's not left out there too long too soon. Eventually he'll get more burn if he's earned it, but considering his past issues I'm not the least bit upset at Frank taking it slow.

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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by MAStamper View Post
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    I'm with you. I don't know specifically what it is, but I know the guy has had a lot of maturity issues in the past (from before the draft and during his earlier time here as well), and I don't believe he is considered to be particularly smart, either, and from watching him during the seasons and in summer league, he seems to wear his emotions on his sleeve and run his mouth, so it wouldn't surprise me at all that he has a short leash to help keep him in check and humble.

    It's a huge blessing we have Clark Kellogg around to mentor him. I think this is a case of people going wide-eyed over his best qualities and letting that blind them to the rest of the picture regarding this guy.

    I think Lance is just where he should be right now. He's playing with the starters, and that makes him the 5th best player on the floor, his talents complement the others, and he's not left out there too long too soon. Eventually he'll get more burn if he's earned it, but considering his past issues I'm not the least bit upset at Frank taking it slow.
    Agreed, the only drastic change I would like to see is make him the back-up PG. I would also like Frank to test out playing Hibbert and Mahinmi at the same time it is a mismatch waiting to happen when playing against shorter non-stretch 4s power forwards, but I think Frank is too slow to change to try either until Granger comes back.

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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    I keep reading these threads, and keep wondering why it is never considered that maybe it was something Lance did, instead of ALWAYS being someone else's fault.
    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Maybe there is something else going on behind the curtain that we don't know about.
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    I think it is very narrow-minded to think it is NEVER anything Lance is doing or not doing.
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    Maybe there is something else going on behind the curtain that we don't know about.
    Did you read my entire post?
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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Did you read my entire post?
    Yes, I did. But it wasn't a case of my wanting to single you out. That wasn't my intention at all. It was just a response to the number of threads that have everyone from the coaches to management being co-conspirators in some grand scheme to make sure Lance fails. I'm sure you've read them too.

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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    Perhaps Lance is not running the plays the coach wants
    Have you seen some of the plays this dude draws up? Any player with any sense wouldn't run a play Vogel draws up. Hopefully West stands up at the end of this season and says " I would like to stay, but i can't play for Vogel." It's not nice, but Vogel is one of those people you can just look at and listen to talk and realize he's just a dumb person. He has no business being an NBA head coach. Maybe he's a nice guy, but he's a bad coach. Not only does he need to do a better job with Lance, he needs to do a better job with the entire team. There's no way this team, even without Granger, should be below .500 with the schedule the Pacers have had.
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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    I just don't think he's meant to be a PG. He's a ball-dominant SG. Good with the ball, scorer, passing, now becoming a shooter, but not a leader, floor-general, play caller type. Not to mention he's better at guarding wings than PGs.

    As for changing the bench, once Danny comes back, it's tricky because I really don't want Lance at the 1, yet I wish we could do better than DJ, Green, and Tyler. I'm open to trying Ben/Lance/Sam/Jeff/Ian, but I'm just not sure Ben or Jeff is going to bring more than DJ or Tyler.

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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by MAStamper View Post
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    I just don't think he's meant to be a PG. He's a ball-dominant SG. Good with the ball, scorer, passing, now becoming a shooter, but not a leader, floor-general, play caller type. Not to mention he's better at guarding wings than PGs.
    Agreed, but I would rather have a ball dominant SG as our back-up PG than Augustin.

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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Agreed, but I would rather have a ball dominant SG as our back-up PG than Augustin.
    Yeah, I hear that.

    It's too bad he seems like a headcase because I'd otherwise love to pick up Delonte West to play at the backup 1.

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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by MAStamper View Post
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    Yeah, I hear that.

    It's too bad he seems like a headcase because I'd otherwise love to pick up Delonte West to play at the backup 1.
    true, true, but if Delonte West was not a headcase, he would have a job already someplace else. The guy can play.

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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Agreed, but I would rather have a ball dominant SG as our back-up PG than Augustin.
    Maybe its just semantics. I'm not as concerned about who the "point guard" is as who is running the pick and roll. If some point guard needs to bring the ball up and pass it to Lance, than fine, although using DJ in this way simply hurts your defense and perhaps unnecessarily. But Lance is the second best player on our team (if not the best) for running the pick and roll. Let's put the ball in his hands and utilize him.
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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by MAStamper View Post
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    I just don't think he's meant to be a PG. He's a ball-dominant SG. Good with the ball, scorer, passing, now becoming a shooter, but not a leader, floor-general, play caller type. Not to mention he's better at guarding wings than PGs.

    As for changing the bench, once Danny comes back, it's tricky because I really don't want Lance at the 1, yet I wish we could do better than DJ, Green, and Tyler. I'm open to trying Ben/Lance/Sam/Jeff/Ian, but I'm just not sure Ben or Jeff is going to bring more than DJ or Tyler.
    I don't think that Lance is a true PG ( like DJ is ). I agree with most people that he is more of a ball-dominant SG that is much better at creating than DJ is. This means that he has to have the ball in his hands in order to be more effective....which would ultimately mean that he has to be the Backup PG when he's on the floor.

    Having DJ and Lance on the floor at the same time would automatically make Lance the same type of Player that he is now when he starts.....standing at the 3pt line waiting for someone to pass to him. I am more inclined to believe that our bench would end up being DJ/Lance/Green/Hansbrough/Mahinmi when Granger returns....but I honestly would prefer Lance/Green/Young/Hansbrough/Mahinmi. Having Lance as the ONLY guy that would be running the point would be the only way to really make him IMHO more effective. Having him stand at the 3pt line waiting for a pass is useless.
    Last edited by CableKC; 12-03-2012 at 08:18 PM.
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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    His defensive rotations on defense are making Tyler look adept. It wasn't his offense, it was his off the ball rotations. When the pnr is applied our opposite wing is suppose to crash the paint. He is not doing that. At all. You all seem to think that the pnr roll problems are solely on Hill and Roy. And that is not the case. pnr defense is on the entire team.

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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Lance needs to do a better job to earn more minutes and the staff needs to see if DJ will continue sucking in order for Lance to get more minutes. I can see DJ finding himself again and seeing Lance and / or Young minutes drop. I don't think Frank has any other choice this early in the season.
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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer Fan View Post
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    Lance needs to do a better job to earn more minutes and the staff needs to see if DJ will continue sucking in order for Lance to get more minutes. I can see DJ finding himself again and seeing Lance and / or Young minutes drop. I don't think Frank has any other choice this early in the season.
    I guess I disagree with this. Lance HAS done a good job. His percentages are some of the best on the team. He has the highest +/- on the team. Others (ahem . . . Paul George . . . ahem) have not played very well but their minutes have not suffered.

    Lance is being held to a different standard. I'd like to know why.
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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I guess I disagree with this. Lance HAS done a good job. His percentages are some of the best on the team. He has the highest +/- on the team. Others (ahem . . . Paul George . . . ahem) have not played very well but their minutes have not suffered.

    Lance is being held to a different standard. I'd like to know why.
    They brought DJ and Green in for a reason and the staff has to play them to this point. If things keep going the same way I think we will see Lance get more minutes which means DJ and / or Green getting less. If this is to develope, I suspect a trade of DJ and Young for someone else. But, for now the staff and FO has to know what they have and taking minutes away from DJ and Green isn't going to help at this point of the season. Things may change after the 15th. JMO
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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer Fan View Post
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    They brought DJ and Green in for a reason and the staff has to play them to this point. If things keep going the same way I think we will see Lance get more minutes which means DJ and / or Green getting less. If this is to develope, I suspect a trade of DJ and Young for someone else. But, for now the staff and FO has to know what they have and taking minutes away from DJ and Green isn't going to help at this point of the season. Things may change after the 15th. JMO
    You're forgetting who Lance is usually getting pulled for. You know, the minimum contract guy who is getting more minutes over the last 10 games than any of our subs. The guy who takes all the bad shots that would get Lance benched. The man, the myth, the legend: Sam Young. This is the guy who is taking minutes away from players more important to the success of the Pacers.

    I understand DJA has been bad this year, but he's averaging 13 mpg. You can't expect a guy who's used to being a starter to be able to work his way out of a slump when he's getting half his regular minutes & is losing many of said minutes so Vogel can reward Young for saving his life this offseason, because that's the only logical explanation for his extended PT and green light to shoot.

    Quote Originally Posted by docpaul
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    Not sure what standard you're referring to? So far, he's played roughly 25 minutes a game. Over double his last year's average.
    It's not the minutes, it's the timing. He gets pulled when he's on fire, for example (see the Golden State game). All too often he is having an impact on the game and Vogel is like "nope, I can't stand for this. Lance! Sit! Sammy! Get in there!"
    Last edited by 3rdStrike; 12-04-2012 at 11:28 AM.

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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I guess I disagree with this. Lance HAS done a good job. His percentages are some of the best on the team. He has the highest +/- on the team. Others (ahem . . . Paul George . . . ahem) have not played very well but their minutes have not suffered.

    Lance is being held to a different standard. I'd like to know why.
    Not sure what standard you're referring to? So far, he's played roughly 25 minutes a game. Over double his last year's average.

    He successfully competed for the starting role, and has kept it.

    Rome wasn't built in a day.

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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by docpaul View Post
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    Not sure what standard you're referring to? So far, he's played roughly 25 minutes a game. Over double his last year's average.

    He successfully competed for the starting role, and has kept it.

    Rome wasn't built in a day.
    All good points.

    I would say that finishing is more important than starting, and Lance has been kept from doing so a few times. This last game, where he played extremely well, he was not allowed to finish and we lost the game, pretty handily.

    Again, your points are well taken if this is simply and only about Lance's development. He surely is on a fast moving track given your perspective. But I guess I am also interested in the Pacers playing better basketball right now. And my opinion is that happens much more effectively, and they win more games, by playing Lance more than 25 minutes and by letting him finish.
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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by docpaul View Post
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    Not sure what standard you're referring to? So far, he's played roughly 25 minutes a game. Over double his last year's average.

    He successfully competed for the starting role, and has kept it.

    Rome wasn't built in a day.
    The standard comment is about Paul George and others being allowed to make a lot of mistakes and miss a lot of shots and keep their minutes. It seems Lance is in jeopardy of getting pulled if he makes one turnover or misses one shot, and almost certainly if there are two. That might be a slight exaggeration, but not by much.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Vogel needs to do a better job with Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    His defensive rotations on defense are making Tyler look adept. It wasn't his offense, it was his off the ball rotations. When the pnr is applied our opposite wing is suppose to crash the paint. He is not doing that. At all. You all seem to think that the pnr roll problems are solely on Hill and Roy. And that is not the case. pnr defense is on the entire team.
    I agree with this, but I also agree with Eleazar that at this point I'd rather have his shooting and on-ball defense vs whatever we are calling Augustin's output.

    DJ gets beat off the dribble almost as a reflex. Even when he picked Jack's pocket it was on the backside so that had he missed he would have given JJack the clear line right to the lane. I want to have DJ playing if he's playing well, but he's been such a problem so far that I just don't see why they keep working him when instead they could have Lance be out there as the bigger, physical PG on defense and a guy that can threaten on offense more.

    Right now DJ is getting crushed on the offensive PnR, he never seems to find a smooth pass into the roll and often gets trapped rather than even finding his man on the PnPop.

    BTW, I complained to Gnome about this (and a Warriors fan) during the game. 1st quarter DJ comes in with the game at 20-16 (Ian is hitting his 2nd FT when he enters). This turns into a 10 point deficit within 6 minutes of game, for a total swing of -14. That was nearly the game right there.

    They pulled it back to down 6 by the time he left, and a small bit of that was DJ finally making a bucket. But less than 4 minutes after he'd left the Pacers had retaken the lead.

    Ultimately they slumped to end the 1st half and got really tired/sloppy in the 3rd, but maybe if you keep that -14 closer to -4 then the main unit can get a buffer to withstand the 3rd quarter slump. And I feel like Lance can help with that more.

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