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Thread: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Quote Originally Posted by xtacy View Post
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    said this before and gonna say it again. his problem is lack of mental toughness and that killer instinct. it has nothing to do with age. you either have it or don't.
    Does Andre Iguodala have killer instinct?

    Maybe you need killer instinct if you're going to be a top banana but we know that Paul won't be that. Just like Roy doesn't really need to score that much. With Danny, West, and Hill we just need Roy and Paul to be complementary players.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Idk how I feel about this whole age excuse. PG has been in the league, receiving consistent minutes since the second half of his first yr. Yes he's improved, but it's been steady, smaller improvements. It's not the fact that he doesn't score 20ppg that pisses ppl off, it's the fact that he has times where he plays like he doesn't care. Thompson is the same age and has been in the league a yr less than PG, and he doesn't seem to be struggling to look to shoot or score.

    Many of the better players in this league are extremely young. SO I don't buy the "it's because he's young" bit. His defense has been inconsistent this year as well. More than a few players have scored on Paul pretty easily. If he's not playing good defense, then at this point he's an average to below average starter, because his J is inconsistent, he can't create his own shot, and he can often times be lazy.

    We dont fully know what we have in PG at this point, but if he's going to continue to be so inconsistent, he needs to be on a short leash in the same way that Lance is. Lance's inconsistent play stems from being too aggressive, Paul is the opposite.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Quote Originally Posted by xtacy View Post
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    i started to doubt it. i mean the rest of the league can't be stupid enough to trade for him, can they? imo we are stuck with him and that's depressing.
    They are still stupid enough to trade for him. They will attribute his struggles to everything else but him. Be it the abysmal Pacers offense or the presence of Danny. People will still want to trade for him 'till his 5th year at least because he is simply so young and so athletic.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Funny how the Danny Grangers fan club members and Danny Granger excuse makers are the ones that want to trade Paul George because "is enough of excuse making" lol, yeah let's trade the guy with the must potential and let's keep Danny and West for the future because "they are guys that play like old mans so they should be able to play for at least 5 more years" .....


    At this point I'm hoping they trade him for another "old man game" type of player to see what this same people are going to say when Paul George is kicking a$$ on another team and the Pacers are in rebuilding mode once again.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    For some constructive criticism of PG, besides the obvious stuff (shoot more but less from outside, get to the line): When he whiffs a shot he almost always has poor form. A shot doesn't have to be pretty to be effective (Reggie was the master of the off-balance, awkward but deadly shot), but he's got plenty of time and still rushes it.

    He takes one or two inside fadeaways per game. I've said it before, but this is a shot he needs to take more often, but mixing in a pump-fake. He's still shooting close to 0% on the season on those shots, but it's because he doesn't finish with form so the shots always hit the front of the rim. This gets me to wondering why a 6'10 guy would rush a fadeaway against defenders who are almost invariably shorter than he is (and thus have almost no chance to block the shot). The answer, I think, is the same reason he doesn't take the ball to the basket: He is very scared of contact.

    Why he's so scared of contact, I don't know. Maybe he feels like his body can't handle it, but if that's the case he needs to hit the weights (which was suggested by several posters in the offseason). I think it's crazy when people say he can't be an elite scorer. He absolutely can, the physical tools and ability to shoot from outside are there. Whether he will or not is another story, and one that depends on what he wants to be.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Quote Originally Posted by AesopRockOn View Post
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    If anyone actually expected 20 points per game from him, I have only sympathy for Paul.
    No kidding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I'm not ready to give up on Paul George. He's still just a 22 year old third year player. That's the age that a rookie is if they stay all four years in college. That's the age Roy was in his rookie season, and look how much better he's become in his mid 20's. Paul is still a very young kid in a man's league. Virtually no player in the NBA peaks at age 22. You don't know what you really have in a player until they are at least age 24-25. If Paul was playing like this in his fifth season, then yes I'd agree that he likely wasn't ever going to get much better. But he still has all the time in the world. You don't give up on a talent like Paul when they're just 22 years old unless you get some trade package that blows you away.

    The problem is that this forum hyped him up way too much and had T-Mac-like expectations for him.
    Before last nights game, Paul was averaging 14.3pts. Not what we wanted, and some expected obviously, but let's put it into perspective for a 3rd year player. (Assuming it stays at that level throughout the remainder of the season) Last season in his wonderful 3rd year, James Harden averaged 16.8pts, and that got him the best bench player in the NBA. Yeah, it's the bench but it also got Harden a max contract. I'm not saying Paul is on that level, I'm saying expecting 17pts would be a pretty exceptional step forward into becoming a star.

    Danny's third year, he went from averaging 12pts to 19pts. That won him the MIP award. Obviously Paul's progression isn't that good, but that was the best improvement in the entire NBA. That shouldn't be the standard.

    Paul averaging 14pts, while isn't a best case scenario, is still showing signs of progress. Paul has shot horribly, on shots we know he can make. If he starts just hitting a little lower than his average, that ppg will increase to 15/16. Right back at that Harden level. (who was playing 31mins a night to get that btw and PG is at 32)

    No, Paul hasn't played well yet, but the fact that he's averaging 14ps while playing like crap actually gives me hope that he can keep progressing forward. If he doesn't end up as a superstar, so what? That's the best case scenario, not the standard.

    EDIT: And to keep with the Harden theme (and no, I'm not comparing them) Harden also averaged 4.1rebs and 3.7assists. Paul is averaging 6.5rebs and 3.4assists.

    Paul is turning into a pretty good player, and I just hope that the expectation that he should be a superstar doesn't spoil that.

    Last night sucked though.
    Last edited by Since86; 12-02-2012 at 01:12 PM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Thompson is the same age and has been in the league a yr less than PG, and he doesn't seem to be struggling to look to shoot or score.
    Thompson scored 4 points in 2/8 shooting (in 23 minutes) against OKC earlier this season.

    Thompson also scored 2 points in 1/6 shooting (in 22 minutes) against Utah last season.

    Gordon Hayward scored 4 points in 1/8 shooting (in 27 minutes) against Denver this season.

    He also scored 4 points in 1/10 shooting (in 33 minutes) against San Antonio in Game 3 of the SAS vs Utah playoff series.

    He scored 0 points in 0/7 shooting (in 25 minutes) in Game 4 of the same series.

    He also had several low scoring games during the last season.

    The point is that it is natural for those guys to have some low scoring games. It's also natural to have some big scoring nights. They will be more consistent as they mature.

    One thing I noticed while searching basketball-reference.com for their games was that Klay Thompson seemed to be less prone to low scoring nights. But if you look at their career numbers it makes absolute sense.

    Klay Thompson is averaging 11.8 FGAs per game in his career. 4.6 of those are 3 point shots. He is averaging 15.6 FGAs this season. 6.8 of those are 3 point shots.

    Gordon Hayward is averaging 6.9 FGAs per game in his career. 1.9 of those are 3 point shots. He is averaging 11.1 FGAs this season. 3.3 of those are 3 point shots.

    Paul George is averaging 8.7 FGAs per game in his career. 3.2 of those are 3 point shots. He is averaging 13.5 FGAs this season. 5.3 of those are 3 point shots.

    So, it's pretty natural that Thompson is scoring more because he's also shooting more. He also posts the highest Usage Rate of the 3. His career USG% is 24.5%. PG's career USG% is 19.2% and Hayward's is 17.7%.

    So, why is he shooting more than the other 2? Well, it's quite simple, really.

    Golden State runs a perimeter-oriented system. Utah and Indiana run post-heavy offenses.

    So, it's quite natural that Klay attempts (and hits) more shots than the other two. He has the green light to do so.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Quote Originally Posted by xtacy View Post
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    said this before and gonna say it again. his problem is lack of mental toughness and that killer instinct. it has nothing to do with age. you either have it or don't.
    I think he is who he is in this regard, but you have to consider that he can still make strides as a skill/finesse player.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Quote Originally Posted by MAStamper View Post
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    I think he is who he is in this regard, but you have to consider that he can still make strides as a skill/finesse player.
    Reggie was a finesse player but he had a finesse game and was agressive. Paul needs some work.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    DJ gets a C+? Another too kind grade. Someone has a man crush. Look at +/- in 1st when DJ hit the court. I told Gnome that Jack might have 20 by the half. Also said he would hit halfcourt over DJ before he did. Game over.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Quote Originally Posted by AesopRockOn View Post
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    If anyone actually expected 20 points per game from him, I have only sympathy for Paul.
    In an interview last year, Paul said his goal was to break the Pacers all time scoring record.
    .

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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom View Post
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    Just like Roy doesn't really need to score that much. With Danny, West, and Hill we just need Roy and Paul to be complementary players.

    I about choked on this statement while eating a Triscuit! I sure in the he11 would hope a player being paid the MAX is more than a complementary player. I'm sure Roy's agent didn't sell Walsh on Hibbert just being a complementary for a max contract. You can bet Portland looked at Hibbert as more than a complimentary player when offering a max contract. If that is all Hibbert needs to be then he should have been paid D Jordan and J McGee complimemtary 10 mil salary.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    I about choked on this statement while eating a Triscuit! I sure in the he11 would hope a player being paid the MAX is more than a complementary player. I'm sure Roy's agent didn't sell Walsh on Hibbert just being a complementary for a max contract. You can bet Portland looked at Hibbert as more than a complimentary player when offering a max contract. If that is all Hibbert needs to be then he should have been paid D Jordan and J McGee complimemtary 10 mil salary.
    Hibbert is the anchor of the defense, and must be accounted for by all defenses. He might be a "complimentary" player on offense, but he is the most important complimentary player in the league.


    With Paul his potential lies in his all-around game, not his scoring. His peak scoring wise really should be about 18ppg, and he is not the type of player you just give the ball and tell them to do his thing like so many people want him to be. While his ball handling is much improved it still isn't good enough to do that. If people would just understand the type of player Paul, instead of projecting what they want him to be (i.e. LeBron or Durant) maybe you guys will realize how much better he is than last year. The only thing preventing him from averaging 16+ppg is his career low type of shooting, which is remarkably similar to how Granger shot last year in the first month or so. George struggled on defense last night, but anyone that has watched George could have told you he was going to struggle. He struggled for the same reason he always struggles against active sharpshooters. He has improved from last year, but he still has a long way to go in that category.

    George played like **** last night, but it has been the only game where he has played like **** from start to finish this season. That tends to happen when you play teams that are able to expose your biggest weakness. While he has had defensive lapses this season, he hasn't had anymore than anyone else. They are just more obvious than everyone else because we are so used to his great defense, and typically he is guarding the other teams best perimeter player. While he hasn't done a great job of scoring he has found other ways to contribute most of the season. If it wasn't for his 9 assists against Sacramento David West most likely doesn't go off for as much as he did nor do we win that game. So far he has had one game where he was not able to positively affect the game. Not bad for a third year player.

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  22. #39
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    PG 18 ppg? Nah. I'd say more like 14 is his ceiling. What we're seeing is about the best we'll get on offense, IMO. He might become more consistent though.

    I want the coaching staff to tell him they want him to be a defensive stopper, and I mean a true stopper: able to play off the ball as well as on and the passing lane. Guy could be a defensive force, DPOY type. That's where his impact identity lies, so tell him to focus on that.

    Then if we get some consistent O it's just gravy, and he's a great complementary player to West, Hill, Granger and (hopefully) Hibbert. But actually, Hill and Hibbert are definitely options 4 and 5. They don't have the DNA to be any more offensively.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Can we agree that he will never have a breakout year?He will be an excellent defender but never ever a constant offensive threat.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Quote Originally Posted by Johanvil View Post
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    Can we agree that he will never have a breakout year?He will be an excellent defender but never ever a constant offensive threat.
    Yep a player that's only 22 would never have a breakout year .....

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    In an interview last year, Paul said his goal was to break the Pacers all time scoring record.
    Slow and steady wins the race?

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    In an interview last year, Paul said his goal was to break the Pacers all time scoring record.
    Brandon Rush said he wanted to be the next Reggie. Doesn't mean I expected him to be.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Yep a player that's only 22 would never have a breakout year .....
    May sound way premature but you can see how weak he is mentally and shows no signs of consistency whatsoever.He will never become great player,a player that a team will rely on him.
    I will thankfully eat a humble pie if i am proven wrong but i just can't see it.

    LOL remember last year when we both said we were aspiring for Paul to become someone like Rudy Gay?Yeah,forget about that.
    Last edited by Johanvil; 12-02-2012 at 07:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    It's not so much that the expectation for George is to score 20 ppg. The Pacers run an equal opportunity offense, therefore having a player average 20 ppg is not likely, especially when the player is at best a 3rd scoring option. But it is NOT unreasonable to expect George to start becoming more consistent in the way he plays and how he effects the box score.

    Without any prior knowledge of Granger not being available, I would have expected George to provide between 10-14 points every night out, with a few 18-20 point games and a few 6-8 point games sprinkled in. When he isn't hitting his shots I would expect him to get to the line to contribute his minimum share of points. For the most part, George has contributed those points, although with Granger out, he is not contributing additional points to help compensate. Where I'm most disappointed in George offensively is in his inability to do the things he needs to do to get to the line and in the fact that I haven't seen a significant improvement in his ability to drive the ball.

    Defensively, you guys can give him accolades all you want, but frankly, I am extremely disappointed. Paul George is a great on the ball defender, although like most of his teammates he oftentimes loses his man through screens. But he absolutely sucks in weak side off-the-ball defense. So many on this forum hated Dunleavy's defense because he had difficulty staying with quicker opponents. But one thing that Dunleavy did do was to play very good weak side defense.

    Paul George claims to want to be a great player. Everyone talks about his work ethic, but frankly I don't see a lot of results. If you have such great athletic talents as Paul George and can literally stifle many wings in this league when you guard them man on man, then why in the hell can't you also guard them when they don't have the ball? Is anyone catching on yet? It should be very clear. Mr George lacks focus. It's that simple. He is not mentally tough enough to force himself to maintain the focus necessary to shut down his man whether or not his man has the ball. And, if you are very often guarding your opponent's best scorer, is there really anything more important for you to do on the defensive end of the floor than to take your opponent out of his offense... to prevent him from scoring?

    That leads me to what I think might result in the worst of all catch-22s for the Pacers. Like a former player named Bender, George shows a ton of potential. So much so that other teams will maintain interest. This season, the Pacers have expressed faith in George and have increased their dependency on him. So, what do we do following next season when it comes time to re-sign George if he continues his current inconsistency and also is unable to provide consistent focus defensively in order to become the truly elite defender he is capable of being? Will we be forced by other teams to sign him to a Bender-sized contract of 7M-8M per year if we want to keep him, all the time still praying that he becomes a mentally tougher player and that his potential finally comes to fruition?

    I've said all along that this is George's crap or get off the pot year. I think the Pacers have easily determined which post they need to hitch to. Granger is the SF, period. From my perspective at least, that question has already been decided. For me, it is now a question of who shall you keep. Do you re-sign West and know that you have your PF slot manned for another 3 years or so with an excellent player? Or, do replace West and the following year spend the bucks to keep George and continue to hope that you might have your SG slot covered? I suppose that it is entirely possible that the Pacers re-sign West and continue to wait on George, knowing they may have to trade one of the two by next year's trade deadline.

    P.S. If I were Paul George, I would get out some old tape of Ron Artest's Pacers games if I wanted to know how a player is to be guarded away from the ball.
    Last edited by beast23; 12-02-2012 at 07:12 PM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Quote Originally Posted by D-BONE View Post
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    I want the coaching staff to tell him they want him to be a defensive stopper, and I mean a true stopper: able to play off the ball as well as on and the passing lane. Guy could be a defensive force, DPOY type. That's where his impact identity lies, so tell him to focus on that.
    Sounds like McKey 2.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23 View Post
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    I've said all along that this is George's crap or get off the pot year. I think the Pacers have easily determined which post they need to hitch to. Granger is the SF, period. From my perspective at least, that question has already been decided. For me, it is now a question of who shall you keep. Do you re-sign West and know that you have your PF slot manned for another 3 years or so with an excellent player? Or, do replace West and the following year spend the bucks to keep George and continue to hope that you might have your SG slot covered? I suppose that it is entirely possible that the Pacers re-sign West and continue to wait on George, knowing they may have to trade one of the two by next year's trade deadline.

    P.S. If I were Paul George, I would get out some old tape of Ron Artest's Pacers games if I wanted to know how a player is to be guarded away from the ball.
    I am more inclined to believe that the FO would re-sign PG to an extension ( or matching whatever he gets on the RFA market ), re-signing West and then looking to trade Granger between now ( unlikely ) and the 2013-2014 Trade Deadline is the most likely scenario. This isn't because Granger isn't the better Player....it's more that this is the more cost effective option than signing Granger and West ( both older Players ) to big contracts and the simply moving PG ( a SG ) for another SG ( that is cheap ).
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Paul George: F-
    His trade value will never be higher.
    I was tempted to just leave it at that but his game is so putrid right now that I feel the need to add this. I never want to hear another word about moving Granger so Paul George can play his natural position of small forward. I knew at the time his 37 point game was pyrite and I said so after the game. Will he get better? Well frankly he has to, I don’t know if it’s possible to play worse. Hell Roy in his worst games of the season still somehow scored a point. He’s starting to make me miss Brandon Rush and I don’t even like Brandon Rush. Here’s a fun fact, he has now played in 17 games and has only shot a total of 33 free throws.
    When PG had his 37 point night, we were at the game and of course it was exciting. But when my girlfriend said something about how great it was, I told her I would trade those 37 points on 3's for a 20 point game all going to basket in a second.

    His play in the Warriors game was about as bad as it gets for a guy with his talents. Your shot not falling? Get to the basket and play great D. Yet he still floated around the arc and Klay was killing us.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23 View Post
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    P.S. If I were Paul George, I would get out some old tape of Ron Artest's Pacers games if I wanted to know how a player is to be guarded away from the ball.
    I would also ask Ron how a terrible dribbler gets to the rim.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Paul George is a slightly more skilled Derrick McKey, sure I would trade him in the right package

    The problem Peck and a lot of other people are having is they thought Paul would lead us in scoring even though that never really seemed in the cards. Peck, I believe you said Paul would average 19-20 per game at the forum party, so I can see why you are upset, but I told you then at Perkins that it wasn't realistic. If he continues to still gives us 14 ppg, 7 rpg, and 3 apg, with a couple steals and a blcok night, he is still one of the better two way wing players you will find, especially on a rookie deal. Sure, I would shop Paul, but right now I would shop pretty much anyone on the team in the right deal, Paul gives great production for his current contract, so if you're upset with him, well I think you just need to look no further than what were probably unrealistic expectations in the first place. The guy is most likely never going to average 18-20 ppg, that is hard to do in the NBA, Danny Granger is able to do it barely and his offensive game is miles ahead of Paul's.

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