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Thread: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

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    Default Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    First let me start off with stating the obvious, going 2-1 on a West Coast swing is a good thing. I didn’t get a chance to fire off one of these last night so I don’t want the fact that we lost tonight & I will be complaining take away from the fact that I do consider this a successful road trip.

    We haven’t turned the corner as a team yet but you can certainly start to see some improvement from where we were just 3 weeks ago.

    Now having said that let’s deal with tonight’s loss.

    The Warriors are actually pretty good. In the long run I don’t see them leading the Pacific but who knows with some of those teams out there. They have a really good back court & while they still need some more size up front they have at least started to play a far more physical game than they used to. You can thank Mark Jackson for that.

    Honestly being the second night of a back to back I’m not surprised we lost and actually even though I can’t say we played particularly well I will say if Jack had not had the incredible shooting night he did I think we could have pulled this one out. But then again maybe not, can’t live off of what ifs. He did get hot and they pulled away.

    Again I am not blaming the entire loss on this but once again Frank played the bench as a unit in the first and let the get behind on a G.S. 10-0 run before he did anything. The starters had the lead but once they lost the lead I think we battled back to take a one time two point lead but that was it. He has got to stop using them as a unit or if he must he has to realize right away when they get behind a 6-0 run he has got to stop it.

    Now to their credit they played very well in the 3rd when the starters just didn’t bring it so there is that.

    I think David West was just gassed and sadly right now we have to depend on him for almost 40 min. a night as on the W.C. trip Tyler has just been horrid. His shot is not falling and every since we have come out west his lack of vertical has really been exposed more than normal.

    Also it is very apparent that Frank has a very short tolerance for Lance Stephenson. Lance made a mistake by not being ready for a pass that West threw to him causing a turn over and he also showed up late on a couple of defensive assignments and that was the night for him. I have no problem with that btw as long as he does that with most of the other players, but let’s just say that our other wing player is not held to the same standard and frankly tonight did not deserve to play one min. more than Lance.

    Also just for an interesting bit of trivia for tonight. Miles Plumlee drafted at 26 was not dressed to play tonight (it was his turn to not play) and Festus Ezeli drafted at 30 started for the Warriors. Don’t get me wrong Mahinmi played well tonight, I thought anyway, but man wouldn’t it have been nice to have that big bruiser waiting in the wings?

    Let’s just do grades for tonight.

    David West: A
    He is still living some off of that A+++ game from Sacramento. But you could tell he didn’t have his legs totally under him tonight but even with that he still led us in points, rebounds, steals and tied for the lead in assist. What more can you ask from the guy? I’m sure he would have liked to have gotten any help at all from someone beyond Hill & Roy but alas it wasn’t to be. While these are game to game reviews I want to say that West has stepped up and played large & in charge on this W/C swing.

    Paul George: F-
    His trade value will never be higher.
    I was tempted to just leave it at that but his game is so putrid right now that I feel the need to add this. I never want to hear another word about moving Granger so Paul George can play his natural position of small forward. I knew at the time his 37 point game was pyrite and I said so after the game. Will he get better? Well frankly he has to, I don’t know if it’s possible to play worse. Hell Roy in his worst games of the season still somehow scored a point. He’s starting to make me miss Brandon Rush and I don’t even like Brandon Rush. Here’s a fun fact, he has now played in 17 games and has only shot a total of 33 free throws.

    Roy Hibbert: B+
    Very solid defensive game from Roy. He also did fairly well from the field and hit 3 of his 4 free throws. His rebounding might have been a little better but the danger of playing a team like the Warriors is that a lot of their shots go long so that kind of negates interior position. If we could have gotten anything at all from George Roy’s game was good enough to win. But when your small forward position nets you 8 points (all by the backup) everybody else is going to have to play above average. Well Roy defended slightly above average but his offense was just average.

    Lance Stephenson: C
    Started the game out great and even as bad as his night ended up it was still better that Paul George’s craptastic game. He made a couple of mental errors and Frank pulled him. I think he was hoping that lightning would strike again & Young would not only defend well but have another amazing scoring night. Didn’t happen and Lance was, IMO, needlessly benched. Still learning to move without the ball and I think that is probably going to be very hard to learn for him but he is getting better.

    George Hill: A-
    Just ran out of gas at the end. He could not keep up with the fresh Jack and then the refreshed Curry. Had a great night from behind the arc and almost brought us back in the game but I just think he didn’t have anything left.

    Tyler Hansbrough: F
    He also was scoreless but at least he only played 11 min. and frankly being a bench player isn’t expected to bring at least 14 points a night to the floor. Is that to much to ask of Paul btw? Just bring 14 points to the game on a nightly basis; I’ve given up on the 20ppg that we all thought might be there so how about just reaching double figures? Anyway Tyler has had a horrific W/C swing and he has got to get to playing better because West will not be able to keep up these kind of min. Maybe seeing Carlos Boozer will light a fire under him.

    Ian Mahinmi: B+
    We are finally starting to see what we saw in the pre-season from Ian. He fouls to much but I think we are just going to have to get used to that from him. He is doing a decent job of protecting the rim and while I’d like to see him get more active on the boards he at least has been playing offense like he means it lately. 6 of 8 from the line is a blessing. Again he played well enough from his position to win this game, if only he could have gotten some help from his small forward.

    Gerald Green: B
    Not the greatest defensive exhibition you will ever see but it was good enough. His shooting was solid and he was doing work on the board. In fact you could say that he played well enough from his position for us to have won the game. If only he could have gotten some help from his starter.

    Sam Young: C+
    Deducting some points for not hitting enough shots. However let’s be honest here if you are really needing him to hit his shots to give you a chance to win your likelihood of winning is not great anyway. Decent defense as always and hustle as always. But since I didn’t get to comment on his Kings game I’ll give him a little break on this game.

    D.J. Augustin: C+
    Honestly just too short for Jack. He couldn’t do anything with him because Jarrett would just pull up and nail the jumper right over him. But I still wonder why with his size he doesn’t try to press the dribbler and get the ball out of their hands. Decent from the field and he made good passes to get people good shots but they just flat out missed them. Still once again we are only able to get Hill 11 min. of rest for the game; I have real doubts about if George ever gets injured.

    No real shame in losing the game but there is one player who should be ashamed of the game he played. Again good west coast trip and now we can come home for a day and get ready to face the Bulls.



    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    God I love that movie. That's all I have to add.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    What do you think about Ian playing the back up four when west needs a break if Tyler isn't playing that good on certain nights? I like the idea of Roy and Ian next to each other defensively. Ian doesn't bring the offensive game West brings obviously but it's slightly better than Tyler's hoping he gets fouled offense. I know we tried it in the pre season but I'd really like to try it now.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Also just for an interesting bit of trivia for tonight. Miles Plumlee drafted at 26 was not dressed to play tonight (it was his turn to not play) and Festus Ezeli drafted at 30 started for the Warriors. Don’t get me wrong Mahinmi played well tonight, I thought anyway, but man wouldn’t it have been nice to have that big bruiser waiting in the wings?
    We do have that big bruiser. He's called Miles Plumlee. We just don't play him.

    The Warriors are forced to play Ezeli. Their starting Center (Bogut) is injured and their back-up Center (Biedrins) is sucking donkey *** the last 2-3 years. So, they're out of options.

    Don't get me wrong, Ezeli is playing good. He's in my fantasy team for a reason

    But I'm quite confident that if Miles got the same chances that Ezeli is getting he would play just as good.

    However, I'm happy to have a healthy starting Center and a good back-up unlike them

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Quote Originally Posted by Miller_time04 View Post
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    What do you think about Ian playing the back up four when west needs a break if Tyler isn't playing that good on certain nights? I like the idea of Roy and Ian next to each other defensively. Ian doesn't bring the offensive game West brings obviously but it's slightly better than Tyler's hoping he gets fouled offense. I know we tried it in the pre season but I'd really like to try it now.
    I'm not sure.

    I like the idea but at the end of the day Ian has to be able to give Roy some breathing time on the bench and he fouls so frequently now that I'm not sure he could play another position without fouling out.

    However when Tyler plays like this, fortunately he has not played like this all season long, my answer would be sure why not.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    We do have that big bruiser. He's called Miles Plumlee. We just don't play him.

    The Warriors are forced to play Ezeli. Their starting Center (Bogut) is injured and their back-up Center (Biedrins) is sucking donkey *** the last 2-3 years. So, they're out of options.

    Don't get me wrong, Ezeli is playing good. He's in my fantasy team for a reason

    But I'm quite confident that if Miles got the same chances that Ezeli is getting he would play just as good.

    However, I'm happy to have a healthy starting Center and a good back-up unlike them
    I have to agree with this......I was sitting behind the bench and was scanning the bench for Plumlee sitting in a suit and didn't see him. But I think that Vogel sees Plumlee as a Center...and that role is filled by Mahinmi. I'd have ZERO problem having Plumlee taking Hansbrough's minutes if he's not doing anything....but from the few garbage minutes that I have seen him play.....I liked what I saw...he's active, has length and far more athletic than anyone on else on the Team.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Quote Originally Posted by Miller_time04 View Post
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    What do you think about Ian playing the back up four when west needs a break if Tyler isn't playing that good on certain nights? I like the idea of Roy and Ian next to each other defensively. Ian doesn't bring the offensive game West brings obviously but it's slightly better than Tyler's hoping he gets fouled offense. I know we tried it in the pre season but I'd really like to try it now.
    Is it me or is it that Vogel hasn't played Mahinmi with Hibbert that much together?
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    If anyone actually expected 20 points per game from him, I have only sympathy for Paul.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Quote Originally Posted by AesopRockOn View Post
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    If anyone actually expected 20 points per game from him, I have only sympathy for Paul.
    I would have been happy with him just scoring 12 points.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AesopRockOn View Post
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    If anyone actually expected 20 points per game from him, I have only sympathy for Paul.
    But is it too much to ask that my starting SF scores 1 point?

    F*** is Paul frustrating to watch.
    Stop quoting people I have on ignore!

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Is it me or is it that Vogel hasn't played Mahinmi with Hibbert that much together?
    I don't think he has at all really in the regular season. I'd like to at least try it out.


    But yeah I'd love for Paul to average 14/8/3/2 steals while being a defensive stopper.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Paul George: F-
    His trade value will never be higher.
    I was tempted to just leave it at that but his game is so putrid right now that I feel the need to add this. I never want to hear another word about moving Granger so Paul George can play his natural position of small forward. I knew at the time his 37 point game was pyrite and I said so after the game. Will he get better? Well frankly he has to, I don’t know if it’s possible to play worse. Hell Roy in his worst games of the season still somehow scored a point. He’s starting to make me miss Brandon Rush and I don’t even like Brandon Rush. Here’s a fun fact, he has now played in 17 games and has only shot a total of 33 free throws.
    i started to doubt it. i mean the rest of the league can't be stupid enough to trade for him, can they? imo we are stuck with him and that's depressing.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    I'm not ready to give up on Paul George. He's still just a 22 year old third year player. That's the age that a rookie is if they stay all four years in college. That's the age Roy was in his rookie season, and look how much better he's become in his mid 20's. Paul is still a very young kid in a man's league. Virtually no player in the NBA peaks at age 22. You don't know what you really have in a player until they are at least age 24-25. If Paul was playing like this in his fifth season, then yes I'd agree that he likely wasn't ever going to get much better. But he still has all the time in the world. You don't give up on a talent like Paul when they're just 22 years old unless you get some trade package that blows you away.

    The problem is that this forum hyped him up way too much and had T-Mac-like expectations for him.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 12-02-2012 at 09:51 AM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    DJ rarely play press D on the ballhandler b/c, in addition to being lilliputian in statue, he's also slow as molasses straight line and laterally. Not a good combination of physical attributes. I don't see how the guy gets a C+. Per usual, he has 2-3 good plays, but they fail to override his poor ones coupled with his overall ineffectiveness and influence on the game as a whole.

    Can we add another player to the roster? My impression is yes. If so, I'd do it and reduce DJ's court time as much as possible. He is such a defensive liability there's almost nothing he could do to make up for it.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I'm not ready to give up on Paul George. He's still just a 22 year old third year player. That's the age that a rookie is if they stay all four years in college. That's the age Roy was in his rookie season, and look how much better he's become in his mid 20's. Paul is still a very young kid in a man's league. Virtually no player in the NBA peaks at age 22. You don't know what you really have in a player until they are at least age 24-25. If Paul was playing like this in his fifth season, then yes I'd agree that he likely wasn't ever going to get much better. But he still has all the time in the world.

    The problem is that this forum hyped him up way too much and had T-Mac-like expectations for him.
    What is the expiration date on this lame excuse? 28? Should we wait six years to expect anything? You know how old Klay Thompson is? Twenty-two. Same age. Roasted him alive.

    TMac expectations were a combined product of his college play & his self-created hype, because he talks about being the man and getting to that superstar/elite scoring level. Don't blame people for expecting him to put some effort behind his words. In any case, scoring 0 is inexcusable from a starter, period. And to think, some people thought he had "turned the corner" after that fluke all-3's performance. Yuck.

    Zero points, zero effort. His new nickname should be NEX. As in, No EXpectations. Because from now on that's certainly what I'll have. You want to give a guy the benefit of the doubt, especially when he talks such a good talk. But at the end of the day you've got 18 yr olds who come in the league with a scorer's mentality (hint: more than jacking up threes), but this guy is playing like a backup with wasted height.

    I mean seriously, it's more than the lack of ability/desire to score. He's not even as effective as he should be defensively. Two years later and he's still regularly having the same mental lapses we saw from his rookie season.

    I'm not saying cut him, but I might be saying bench him when Granger comes back, because Lance is playing better on-ball and obviously better on offense.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdStrike View Post
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    What is the expiration date on this lame excuse? 28? Should we wait six years to expect anything? You know how old Klay Thompson is? Twenty-two. Same age. Roasted him alive.

    TMac expectations were a combined product of his college play & his self-created hype, because he talks about being the man and getting to that superstar/elite scoring level. Don't blame people for expecting him to put some effort behind his words. In any case, scoring 0 is inexcusable from a starter, period. And to think, some people thought he had "turned the corner" after that fluke all-3's performance. Yuck.

    Zero points, zero effort. His new nickname should be NEX. As in, No EXpectations. Because from now on that's certainly what I'll have. You want to give a guy the benefit of the doubt, especially when he talks such a good talk. But at the end of the day you've got 18 yr olds who come in the league with a scorer's mentality (hint: more than jacking up threes), but this guy is playing like a backup with wasted height.

    I mean seriously, it's more than the lack of ability/desire to score. He's not even as effective as he should be defensively. Two years later and he's still regularly having the same mental lapses we saw from his rookie season.

    I'm not saying cut him, but I might be saying bench him when Granger comes back, because Lance is playing better on-ball and obviously better on offense.
    Well for starters, let's not act like the guy has done nothing. Over the course of his three years here, he has played very good defense and has shown that he has the skills to score the ball. He started on a team that had the 5th best record in the league last year.

    Yeah he had zero points and no effort last night. But just a week and a half ago he hit nine threes. Neither one of those extremes should be used to predict the type of player he'll be. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

    I don't know what the expiration date is on this "excuse". But after watching the NBA for years, I do know that very very very few players have hit their peak at age 22. It's an extremely young age anyway you slice it. Many rookies are that age. I don't think you really know what a player is until about age 25. I'm not saying that the dude is going to be dropping 25 a game in a couple of years. But I am saying that he should get stronger, more confident, more knowledgeable about he what he needs to do, etc etc.

    Isn't a lot of the stuff being said about Paul the same type of stuff that we used to say about Roy in his first couple of seasons? Roy had mental lapses in his third season too.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 12-02-2012 at 10:14 AM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    He has played very good defense.........sometimes. He's also had a lot of bad defense. He started on a team that had the 5th best record in the league...so did Darren Collison. Nobody is saying Paul George is going to average 0 ppg. But if he averages 12-13 ppg with Granger out (by jacking up threes and refusing to approach the basket or get to the line) and while the team is desperately sputtering then he will be deemed a disappointment by (almost) all.

    And where is Roy now? All those mental lapses added up to a career best 12.4 ppg in a contract year, and now he's a 7'2 starting center shooting 39%....who is still suffering from mental lapses.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdStrike View Post
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    He has played very good defense.........sometimes. He's also had a lot of bad defense. He started on a team that had the 5th best record in the league...so did Darren Collison. Nobody is saying Paul George is going to average 0 ppg. But if he averages 12-13 ppg with Granger out (by jacking up threes and refusing to approach the basket or get to the line) and while the team is desperately sputtering then he will be deemed a disappointment by (almost) all.

    And where is Roy now? All those mental lapses added up to a career best 12.4 ppg in a contract year, and now he's a 7'2 starting center shooting 39%....who is still suffering from mental lapses.
    Everything you say is true. All I'm saying is that I'd be surprised if he didn't improve over the next 2-3 seasons. Youth is a valid excuse in the NBA, IMHO. Most 22 year olds are going to struggle in the NBA at times.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    He and Lance were my favorite players a year ago, so I admit the fan in me may overreact a bit when it comes to PG. I'm just worried about him plateauing early. Not sure we have a staff that is conducive to player development.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    I would have been happy with him just scoring 12 points.

    As you're alluding to those 12 points, they would have won the game.

    Sorry, but I thought PG's "D" was terrible. He was AWOL in this game. It's this type of tripe from PG that Peck's comment "his trade value will never be higher" has me really thinking about it.

    I've said from day ONE PG was drafted to replace BRush. As Peck stated It's obvious SF isn't his position nor is he Granger's future replacement. For those that still think PG is, they had better wake up and see the reality he isn't. Look for the Pacers to draft or trade for Granger's replacement as that replacement isn't currently on the Pacers roster.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Frustrating loss made moreso by Vogel's dumb substitutions.
    Lance + Starting SG = Awesome

    Now really free Lance!

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Quote Originally Posted by xtacy View Post
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    i started to doubt it. i mean the rest of the league can't be stupid enough to trade for him, can they? imo we are stuck with him and that's depressing.

    Look at the bright side... at least the Pacers didn't draft Wes Johnson at #4 or Cole Aldrich #11 who was one pick behind Paul George. It could have been worse!

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdStrike View Post
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    He and Lance were my favorite players a year ago, so I admit the fan in me may overreact a bit when it comes to PG. I'm just worried about him plateauing early. Not sure we have a staff that is conducive to player development.
    This. I'm not blaming the offense entirely, but it's not a great offense to be developing young wings in. We ask our wings to stand around the perimeter and shoot 3's when our bigs kick it out, and that's what they do. Granger never would have developed into the player he is today if had to play in this offense early in his career.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Isn't a lot of the stuff being said about Paul the same type of stuff that we used to say about Roy in his first couple of seasons? Roy had mental lapses in his third season too.

    The next player the Pacers draft, whoever it is, has to be stronger mentally. I've b****** about how much Hill got paid, but I've NEVER complained about his mental attitude or lack of mental toughness. I'd rather have the toughness in a lesser quality player than have another Mr. Softee with All World Potential. Potential only gets you so far in this league. Prime example is Gerald Green. Mental toughness can overcome less athleticism. I don't need to see highlite reel dunks or live by the 3 pt shot. I want to see scoring from inside, mid-range, and outside. I want to see the attitude you can't stop me from what I want to do. Paul George doesn't have that type of attitude, and I don't envision seeing he'll develop one either.

    One of the reasons I've been a Jerritt Jack fan is he's a mentally tough player. Last nites game from Jack is just why I felt Bird dropped the ball and made a humongous blunder not re-signing Jack.
    Last edited by Justin Tyme; 12-02-2012 at 11:13 AM.

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    PROUD 2 B A PACERS FAN! xtacy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Warriors came out to play

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I'm not ready to give up on Paul George. He's still just a 22 year old third year player.
    said this before and gonna say it again. his problem is lack of mental toughness and that killer instinct. it has nothing to do with age. you either have it or don't.

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