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Thread: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

  1. #126

    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Just like within any profession, professional athletes have the right to maximize how much money they are to be paid. If a team wants to offer him big money, why does he need to turn it down? Because the Pacers drafted and developed him? Unfortunately, that's NOT how it works. Yes the Pacers drafted and developed him, but that's the organizations job--to draft good players and put them in the best possible position to develop and succeed. Had the Pacers not drafted him, another team would have, and would have done the same thing--did everything they could top help him succeed.

    You can argue that the Pacers could have went another route as opposed to re-signing Hibbert for a big money contract, but don't get angry at Roy because he maximized his earnings. He didn't MAKE the Pacers pay him. We made that decision as an organization. That's not on Roy.

    Sorry, but loyalty works 2 ways. Where was Hibbert's loyalty to the Pacers? His loyalty was only to himself and his pocketbook with his "it's all about me attitude." I'm not asking Hibbert to re-sign for peanuts, but what he insisted on being paid is too much for him. He's not that quality of player for the money he's being paid.

    Again, I can't believe Portland isn't smiling that the Pacers matched their offer. Personally, I feel they have a nice rookie in Meyers Leonard at Center for the future. Hibbert's overpaid contract makes him near impossible to trade with his play. Hopefully, he'll get his game together along with some mental toughness to make his contract a good one.

  2. #127
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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Did you not read anything that Count55 posted?

    Please, before you spout any more falsehoods about Roy's restricted free agency and his "all about me" attitude, please read up on NBA RFA:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restric...ted_free_agent
    http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q43
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  4. #128

    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    Sorry w/o the name of who this mysterious 2nd team was with some type of validation, it is nothing but a rumor. The NBA is full of stories everyday that is nothing but rumors. I just don't believe Hibbert had another team chopping at the bit to sign him at that type of salary.

    I'd hate to say how many times I've heard the story "I've got others interested if you aren't" at this price only to see those other interested parties never step up. It's called a negotiation ploy, and aqents aren't immuned to using it.

    If you have some concrete info on who this supposed 2nd team was, I'd love to read it.

  5. #129
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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    It doesn't matter if the 2nd team was a false rumor or not. Portland laid a max contract out for Roy. From that moment forward, that's what he was going to get, either from them or from us. Period.

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  7. #130
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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    Sorry w/o the name of who this mysterious 2nd team was with some type of validation, it is nothing but a rumor.

    If you have some concrete info on who this supposed 2nd team was, I'd love to read it.
    The problem is that you are basing your arguments on rumors or beliefs as well.

    Therefore, we cannot have a factual discussion here.

  8. #131

    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Quote Originally Posted by MAStamper View Post
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    It doesn't matter if the 2nd team was a false rumor or not. Portland laid a max contract out for Roy. From that moment forward, that's what he was going to get, either from them or from us. Period.

    I hear you. I just feel the Pacers overpaid. Bottom line is the Pacers signed Hibbert to a max deal, and they are tied to that contract for 4 years. I TRULY hope Hibbert earns every dadgum penny of his max contract, but I have my doubts.

  9. #132
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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    He is a heck of a player at either the 1 or the 2 and I am glad we paid the man.

  10. #133
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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Quote Originally Posted by MAStamper View Post
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    It doesn't matter if the 2nd team was a false rumor or not. Portland laid a max contract out for Roy. From that moment forward, that's what he was going to get, either from them or from us. Period.
    Exactly. This is the kind of stupid misunderstanding of fundamental facts that gets people with these crazy opinions.

    Yes, if Roy murdered a baby then that would make him a horrible human being. He didn't, that's not a fact and opinions should not be based on it. Please apply this natural connection between FACT and OPINION DRAWN in all future debates, if only for our sanity.


    It just bugs me so much because it's not the same as "he really did score 15 points" and one person's opinion is that this is "a lot" and another is "that's not enough". That's when people will have different opinions. But when someone decided that 15 points was really 1 point, then no s*** they won't think that he scored enough. Argh. And people wonder why they can't agree on some of this stuff.

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  12. #134
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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Also, Roy is underperforming his PRIOR SEASONS. Take the contract of the books for a second. Right now Roy is not meeting his own standard, whatever value that might be. So until he meets his standard it's not appropriate to debate the intelligence of the resign.

    What I mean is the Pacers didn't "blow it" because of what Roy is doing now. Roy is just not playing up to his level, and I mean his already established level, not some projected future level.

    Maybe his established level is also not worth that money, but I have to think that if he were simply putting up the same numbers as last year we wouldn't even be discussing this. So let's first get past the "slump" issue and before we get on to evaluating if "normal Roy" would have been worth matching.

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  14. #135
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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    No, but I am not making accusations either. That is the difference. I am not going around acting like I have some kind of idea of how it went down. All I know is that we signed Hill for a flat $8 million a year(not abnormal for a starter of his quality), and so far he has lived up to his contract. That is all I know. You might think he hasn't, and you have the right to that opinion, I am not arguing against your opinion, that doesn't mean it is ok to go around making accusations about how the front office should have done it when you have no idea how it actually happened. You are just creating baseless rumors.
    And this is the reason to establish the facts before fighting on the opinion. With the facts on George Hill we could pretty easily dispute or confirm if guys putting up his current numbers (also tied in with his last couple for a sense of growth and trending) typically get his type of paycheck. If they do, then his deal was a good one. If they don't then they missed.

    I realize this is more boring than just being irrationally mad or positive about things, but I assure you there can still be passion about things that can be somewhat "proven".


    To me it feels like Hill's numbers are similar to what an 8m PG would get, maybe even better than that. Then there is the harder to quantify "guts/clutch" factor, and if you want to keep the passion in the debate then maybe we should focus on that instead of FG%, AST, and PPG from an 8m guy.


    Frankly the Pacers 2 key players are Hill and West, the entire offense only works because of what they do for the most part, so I'd say they were both easily worth the money and will continue to be so. Of course I also think Roy kicks the slide and comes back with a vengeance and ends up with a whole new bandwagon of fans. Frankly his defense is so good he's already earning a good chunk of his deal on that alone.

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  16. #136

    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    I honestly feel like some people haven't looked much into what players not on the Pacers get paid.

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  18. #137

    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    Sorry, but loyalty works 2 ways. Where was Hibbert's loyalty to the Pacers? His loyalty was only to himself and his pocketbook with his "it's all about me attitude." I'm not asking Hibbert to re-sign for peanuts, but what he insisted on being paid is too much for him. He's not that quality of player for the money he's being paid.

    Again, I can't believe Portland isn't smiling that the Pacers matched their offer. Personally, I feel they have a nice rookie in Meyers Leonard at Center for the future. Hibbert's overpaid contract makes him near impossible to trade with his play. Hopefully, he'll get his game together along with some mental toughness to make his contract a good one.
    I wouldn't bother if I were you. The things they come up with to defend Hibbert says enough for me. And always it's his environment that causes most of it, never Roy.

    Portland did us a favor by offering him that contract.
    Hibbert is struggling because our spacing isn't any good.
    Roy going to sign a contract with Portland isn't his wish, it's Portlands wish and he had to accept it because that is how FA works.

    Like you said, it works both ways. Some players take a paycut to play somewhere, for the sake of the team, and it's a fact Hibbert isn't one of them. I'm not saying there aren't any influencing factors from outside, but for me it's 50-50 until proven otherwise. Portland offered the max and Roy accepted their offer. No need to sugarcoat it EDIT and say stuff like technically he didn't take the max. They just call it the max to feed the haters.
    Last edited by MvPlumlee; 12-03-2012 at 06:52 AM.

  19. #138

    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Quote Originally Posted by MvPlumlee View Post
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    Some players take a paycut to play somewhere, for the sake of the team
    Outside of vets who have already made their big money, can you name a few?

  20. #139

    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tuts Tomb View Post
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    Outside of vets who have already made their big money, can you name a few?
    I'm thinking about all players that didn't need a third party to come to an agreement. Of course, it's an unknown what they might have gotten if they would have.
    I mean players like Granger, Horford... We don't know if they could have gotten more per year but it was possible.
    Isn't that beneficial for the team? More money to spend every year and at least one year more committed to the team? Or 2 with Roy's PO.

    That's why I don't have any problem with the George Hill deal. Our front office feared that yet another FO would dictate the terms of the contract of one our players and they prevented that with giving Hill a bit too pricey contract and George accepted it. It's easy to say of course he accepted it, overpaying him like that, but at least he and the team could work out a deal that seems good for him and good for our team (according to our FO). Hibbert got himself a deal that benefits him the most and not so much the team (according to our FO).

    It's ok to disagree with that, everyone values players differently, but I would much rather have Roy to have the balls to be tough on the court than him to be tough in contract negotations. (Or tough enough to stand up against his agent). He could have said Paul Allen wants to pay me this much, I want close to it, but I'm willing to take a small paycut or drop the PO, or spread it over 5 years. Nope, it had to be what he got from the Trailblazers.

    With the help of his agent tough enough to impose his will to Donnie and Kevin, but Baby Davis, Ronny Turiaf or Joel Anthony? No, not tough enough for that.
    Last edited by MvPlumlee; 12-03-2012 at 07:00 AM.

  21. #140

    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Quote Originally Posted by MvPlumlee View Post
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    Portland did us a favor by offering him that contract.

    Hibbert is struggling because our spacing isn't any good.
    Roy going to sign a contract with Portland isn't his wish, it's Portlands wish and he had to accept it because that is how FA works.

    Maybe it's just too early in the morning for me, but I don't understand how Portland did us a favor.

    If signing a contract with Portland wasn't Hibbert's wish, whose wish was it? There is absolutely nothing that says a player HAS to sign an offer sheet when one is offered. I'll take the Devil's Advocate stance and lets say there truly was another team who was interested in Hibbert. Team B wanted to sign Hibbert, but wasn't offering a max contract b/c they didn't feel he was worth a max. They offered him an offer sheet 1st. Just b/c team B offered Hibbert a contract doesn't mean he has to accept it. Portland offered a better contract, so he took it instead of Team B's offer.

    I'll go on record like I did with Granger, and say Hibbert will never be an Allstar again. I'd love to be wrong, but truthfully I highly doubt I will be.


    Edit: I'm also on record saying O'Brien will never be a head coach in the NBA again too.

  22. #141

    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Quote Originally Posted by MvPlumlee View Post
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    I mean players like Granger, Horford... We don't know if they could have gotten more per year but it was possible.
    They took what they thought they could get. If they thought they could get Roy money, they would have.

    That's why I don't have any problem with the George Hill deal. Our front office feared that yet another FO would dictate the terms of the contract of one our players and they prevented that with giving Hill a bit too pricey contract and George accepted it. It's easy to say of course he accepted it, overpaying him like that, but at least he and the team could work out a deal that seems good for him and good for our team (according to our FO). Hibbert got himself a deal that benefits him the most and not so much the team (according to our FO).
    So your problem is with the concept of restricted free agency? All your examples of good guys have signed extensions.

    It's ok to disagree with that, everyone values players differently, but I would much rather have Roy to have the balls to be tough on the court than him to be tough in contract negotations. (Or tough enough to stand up against his agent). He could have said Paul Allen wants to pay me this much, I want close to it, but I'm willing to take a small paycut or drop the PO, or spread it over 5 years. Nope, it had to be what he got from the Trailblazers.
    So you wanted Roy to do three things:

    -Take a pay cut. How much? A million? Two million?
    -Drop the PO. And do what, make it a team option? I highly doubt the PO comes to matter at all.
    -Spread his contract from 4 years to 5 (???) No one in their right mind would do this, in any field. This shows me that you're not talking about this rationally and you're just looking for a reason to hate.

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  24. #142
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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    I don't see how Portland did us a favor, either. Up until they offered him that max, I still thought there was a chance he would cost less. It was disheartening to see how wrong I was, and so quickly, once free agency began. I thought Roy would make between $11m-$13m per year on average. Nope. He got $14.5m per on average.

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  26. #143
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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Quote Originally Posted by MAStamper View Post
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    I don't see how Portland did us a favor, either. Up until they offered him that max, I still thought there was a chance he would cost less. It was disheartening to see how wrong I was, and so quickly, once free agency began. I thought Roy would make between $11m-$13m per year on average. Nope. He got $14.5m per on average.
    Big men are the most popular positions to overpay. When it works out they are often the most important player on the floor, and their impact far exceeds their stats. The problem is, most of the time the player can't live up to the artificially inflated salary, because the salary is based on what could be instead of what is. Could Hibbert live up to 14.5 on average, sure, but most likely he will only live up to about 12 on average.

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  28. #144

    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    Maybe it's just too early in the morning for me, but I don't understand how Portland did us a favor.

    If signing a contract with Portland wasn't Hibbert's wish, whose wish was it? There is absolutely nothing that says a player HAS to sign an offer sheet when one is offered. I'll take the Devil's Advocate stance and lets say there truly was another team who was interested in Hibbert. Team B wanted to sign Hibbert, but wasn't offering a max contract b/c they didn't feel he was worth a max. They offered him an offer sheet 1st. Just b/c team B offered Hibbert a contract doesn't mean he has to accept it. Portland offered a better contract, so he took it instead of Team B's offer.

    I'll go on record like I did with Granger, and say Hibbert will never be an Allstar again. I'd love to be wrong, but truthfully I highly doubt I will be.


    Edit: I'm also on record saying O'Brien will never be a head coach in the NBA again too.
    Those are examples of other peoples words my friend, not mine

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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Quote Originally Posted by MAStamper View Post
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    It doesn't matter if the 2nd team was a false rumor or not. Portland laid a max contract out for Roy. From that moment forward, that's what he was going to get, either from them or from us. Period.
    Yes it does matter, there is a reason why I have arguments with people that throws bs information around to confuse those that don't know the facts, the more facts and true information we have the better this site if going to be, the more bs and false information we have the more closer this site is to become the next bleacherreport.

  30. #146

    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tuts Tomb View Post
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    They took what they thought they could get. If they thought they could get Roy money, they would have.



    So your problem is with the concept of restricted free agency? All your examples of good guys have signed extensions.



    So you wanted Roy to do three things:

    -Take a pay cut. How much? A million? Two million?
    -Drop the PO. And do what, make it a team option? I highly doubt the PO comes to matter at all.
    -Spread his contract from 4 years to 5 (???) No one in their right mind would do this, in any field. This shows me that you're not talking about this rationally and you're just looking for a reason to hate.
    Yes, I hate/don't like Hibbert and his deal. I have no problem admitting that. Hate/not liking makes you irrational.

    So does love/liking.

  31. #147
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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Yes it does matter, there is a reason why I have arguments with people that throws bs information around to confuse those that don't know the facts, the more facts and true information we have the better this site if going to be, the more bs and false information we have the more closer this site is to become the next bleacherreport.
    Understood, but he meant it doesn't matter if the second team was false or not in terms of what Roy was going to get paid once Portland made their max contract offer.
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  33. #148

    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Quote Originally Posted by MvPlumlee View Post
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    Yes, I hate/don't like Hibbert and his deal. I have no problem admitting that. Hate/not liking makes you irrational.

    So does love/liking.
    Just an observation. I think you're posing what is called a false equivalency. [someone please correct me if I'm wrong.]

    It seems that hating/not liking is way more likely to lead to irrationality than loving/liking. IMO, at least an order of magnitude greater.

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  35. #149
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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    Sorry, but loyalty works 2 ways. Where was Hibbert's loyalty to the Pacers? His loyalty was only to himself and his pocketbook with his "it's all about me attitude." I'm not asking Hibbert to re-sign for peanuts, but what he insisted on being paid is too much for him. He's not that quality of player for the money he's being paid.
    Agreed. I just cannot believe a professional athlete would have the nerve to put his and his family's well being ahead of his loyalty to a team that could and would trade him in heartbeat for the right deal. What a selfish prick. I can't imagine anybody caring any less about the loyal fans than Roy Hibbert. How dare he take the amount that was offered to him by multiple teams of people whose sole job is to determine what price a player is worth. He should have told the management groups in Portland, Indiana, and the other clubs who offered him a max contract that he wasn't worth that much. We all know that's what we would have done in his shoes. Becasue we have a sense of loyalty.
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  37. #150
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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Some of these people saying Roy (or any non ring-chasing NBA player in their prime) should have taken less than he was offered should do the same the next time their employer offers them a raise, or risk the wrath of some random person telling they are getting paid too much for them....


    Hmmm... I think theres an advertising campaign in there somehow.
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