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Thread: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

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    Welcome CJ Miles! BlueCollarColts's Avatar
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    Default George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    13.8 ppg and 5.3 apg, may not sound like great numbers but the Pacers made the right move signing him for that amount of money. Hill has made 2 game winning shots this season last night and @ Toronto in the opener, even last season Hill was ranked top 10 in the NBA in his productions in the final 2 minutes, the dude is clutch. I know some people say we over payed for him but I disagree, Hill was worth every bit of it. We have two players we can go to for buckets when we need them and that is George Hill and David West.

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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    that 13.8 will easily rise to about 15ppg once he starts shooting around his normal %'s.

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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Right on! I thought this was the worst move we made this offseason, but he proved me wrong pretty quickly.

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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    By the way if you are mad at Hill's contract I'm telling you to get yourself ready to be disappointed with West's new contract next year.

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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    The counter-argument would be that if George Hill played better before the final two minutes of the game, we wouldn't have needed the heroics. I mean, the guy spotted the Lakers at least four points on easy fast breaks last night, and in the first half he only managed three points against All-NBA defenders Darius Morris and Chris Duhon. His shooting has been atrocious all season and his passing remains sub-par for a starting point guard. In a season where we desperately need consistency from our players (and we're certainly not getting it from Hibbert and George), Hill hasn't delivered. You could argue that he's been the second best player on the team thus far, but the team is only 7-8.

    He hasn't shied away from the big moments, and he's hit more game-winners than I can remember, but let's judge the guy on the entirety of his work - every game, every minute. The front office already gave him $40 million based on a ten-game run. They overpaid because they remembered the good and forgot the bad. Let us not make the same mistake.

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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
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    The counter-argument would be that if George Hill played better before the final two minutes of the game, we wouldn't have needed the heroics. I mean, the guy spotted the Lakers at least four points on easy fast breaks last night, and in the first half he only managed three points against All-NBA defenders Darius Morris and Chris Duhon. His shooting has been atrocious all season and his passing remains sub-par for a starting point guard. In a season where we desperately need consistency from our players (and we're certainly not getting it from Hibbert and George), Hill hasn't delivered. You could argue that he's been the second best player on the team thus far, but the team is only 7-8.

    He hasn't shied away from the big moments, and he's hit more game-winners than I can remember, but let's judge the guy on the entirety of his work - every game, every minute. The front office already gave him $40 million based on a ten-game run. They overpaid because they remembered the good and forgot the bad. Let us not make the same mistake.
    I have posted that he was not worth near that much. I think I was probably wrong. 8 million is a good deal for him. Him Lance and George fit really well. Obviously Lance will be the odd man out when Granger returns, but I'm afraid that will hurt us. I think Lance starting at point is our best option going forward, simply because his defense, ball, handling and court vision are what we need at the point, not Hill's scoring. I think George Hill is better suited to be a 6th man, because he would be arguable the best one in the league. For some reason I believe that could solve our woes against Miami and other top teams. Obviously we need Hill now more than ever, I just think Lance has a higher ceiling he seems to be climbing towards fast at the point guard position.

    Sure he has been playing off the ball a lot, but good things seem to happen when he gets the ball in his hands. I understand this may be by design to
    ease him into the roll, but eventually we need to put the ball in his hands and let him go to work becuase he is out best creator for himself and others we've got. That includes Granger and Hill. He will make mistakes sure, but Hill and George have made their fair share and when any of the three are driving into traffic, I trust Lance's handles the most. I also trust his ability to pass into the post more than any other player for some reason. If his double clutch shots while driving to basket keep dropping at an increasing consitency, he may become our best all around player.

    Free Lance. He is better at creating for Hill, than Hill is for creating for him. We may see Hill's woeful shooting percentages increase to the level they were when Collison was still a big part of our offense. I think Hill's main problem this year is he is being asked to have the ball in his hands more than at any point in his career so far. They have Lance leashed so he doesn't have the chance to get Hill open looks. But Lance does get Hill good looks a lot considering he may not touch the ball at all on many possesssions.

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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
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    The counter-argument would be that if George Hill played better before the final two minutes of the game, we wouldn't have needed the heroics. I mean, the guy spotted the Lakers at least four points on easy fast breaks last night, and in the first half he only managed three points against All-NBA defenders Darius Morris and Chris Duhon. His shooting has been atrocious all season and his passing remains sub-par for a starting point guard. In a season where we desperately need consistency from our players (and we're certainly not getting it from Hibbert and George), Hill hasn't delivered. You could argue that he's been the second best player on the team thus far, but the team is only 7-8.

    He hasn't shied away from the big moments, and he's hit more game-winners than I can remember, but let's judge the guy on the entirety of his work - every game, every minute. The front office already gave him $40 million based on a ten-game run. They overpaid because they remembered the good and forgot the bad. Let us not make the same mistake.
    I believe you can say that about a lot of players in the team, specially all the new contracts.

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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Quote Originally Posted by 2minutes twoa View Post
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    I hate the perception that he has been a bad defender just because our pick and roll defense is terrible. People ripped him for being schooled by Tony Parker, but it wasn't Parker breaking him down one on one. I think Hill is a very solid defender.
    Me too. I've stated this several times, but I also think he can give a little more effort than he has. He just now getting into bball shape and he played with a wrap on his thumb for weeks so I expect he'll improve in all facets of the game as the season rolls along.

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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    Me too. I've stated this several times, but I also think he can give a little more effort than he has. He just now getting into bball shape and he played with a wrap on his thumb for weeks so I expect he'll improve in all facets of the game as the season rolls along.
    I think we keep overlooking that Hill missed all of the preseason with that hip-pointer and thumb injury. I believe that if Danny was healthy at the start of the season, he might've sat out the first couple of games. I expect his shooting accuracy to come back if the thumb injury fully heals.

    I reserve all judgement on his contract until the end of the season. Getting into it at this point is useless. There are way too many games left to play.

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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I believe you can say that about a lot of players in the team, specially all the new contracts.
    You could also say the opposite about the players we let go, though

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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I believe you can say that about a lot of players in the team, specially all the new contracts.
    Shut, you can say that about most of the players in the NBA, NBA contracts are in a large part built on potential, production is key as well, but how else do you explain a lot of these contracts being given out. We didn't overpay for Hill, for Hibbert, now that is a different story, but really in this market what are you to do.

    Hill is still young enough and is getting better in the PG role, I think he fits well with this team, and really has seemed like a leader.
    Why so SERIOUS

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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    I knew it was always a great move. Hill is a great all around player. Hes a great defender and has a lot of playoff experience (coming from SA).
    "So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.



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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    It's pretty silly to say whether he's worth all, some, or none of the new contract 15 games in. Like Joey Crawford after calling a blocking foul, give it some time to breathe first.

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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    It really doesn't matter how well or not he performs, he could put up 20/10/10 and it still wouldn't mean 5/40 was a good contract if you could have signed him for less. Fact is there was no competition, he could have very likely been had for less, the market for players considered at or near his level dropped out, and we overpaid, regardless of his production.

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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    It really doesn't matter how well or not he performs, he could put up 20/10/10 and it still wouldn't mean 5/40 was a good contract if you could have signed him for less. Fact is there was no competition, he could have very likely been had for less, the market for players considered at or near his level dropped out, and we overpaid, regardless of his production.
    Wait a minute. Comping him to other players is only half of what is involved in retaining or acquiring a player. The other half of the matter, really a more important consideration, is whether there are other teams that had the cap space to pay him as much as we did.

    I don't recall whether other teams still had that kind of money or not. I do agree with you that a good deal for any team is one in which you don't have to pay substantially more than the minimum amount that it actually takes to sign a player.

    I would have hoped we could have gotten Hill for 5.5M - 6M per year. It didn't happen. But I really cannot say with certainty why. Could we have lost him if we had only been willing to pay that amount?

    It seems reasonable that to lessen the risk in losing him that we were required to pay an amount more than the MLE. That much I feel like I know. But how much more than the MLE, who knows?

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    Welcome CJ Miles! BlueCollarColts's Avatar
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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    It really doesn't matter how well or not he performs, he could put up 20/10/10 and it still wouldn't mean 5/40 was a good contract if you could have signed him for less. Fact is there was no competition, he could have very likely been had for less, the market for players considered at or near his level dropped out, and we overpaid, regardless of his production.
    fact is you don't know if there was competition for him, you are assuming that there was no competition for him, the Rockets signed Omer Asik for over 8 mil a year, you can't tell me that you know for sure no team offered Hill, because you don't know.

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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCollarColts View Post
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    fact is you don't know if there was competition for him, you are assuming that there was no competition for him, the Rockets signed Omer Asik for over 8 mil a year, you can't tell me that you know for sure no team offered Hill, because you don't know.

    You act like it was a top secret that another team was interested in Hill, and no one knew anything about it! This is the NBA where rumors galore abide. The NBA isn't the CIA where secrets abound.

    The point is Walsh was bidding against himself. Hill was a RFA which gave Walsh a chance to match an offer sheet from another team. "NO" NBA team signed Hill to an offer sheet. There is a reason for that. No other teams were interested. IIRC, Hill turned down an offer from Bird previously. The number 7 mil seems to stick in my mind. Other teams weren't interested in Hill at that type of money. Checkbook Donnie rushed in bid against himself, and overpaid Hill when there was no reason to do so. That's why Hill is overpaid. If Hill had stayed in San Antonio, do you truly think RC Buford would have given Hill anything close to a 5 year 40 mil contract?? If you do, then I have some ocean front property down in Brown county I'd like to sell you.

    I felt all long, and I'm on record saying I felt Hill was worth between 4.5 and 5.5 mil. 6 mil wouldn't have been too much, but "8" mil was just plain overpaying. Thank you Mr. Walsh!

    Let's compare Hill with another home state player.... Mike Conley. Both are PG's and Conley makes a little less salary this year. Conley is a TRUE PG, where as Hill isn't. Conley is averaging 15 PPG on 50% FG, 43% 3pt, 81.6% FT. Conley averages 6.5 Ast with a 2-1 Ast/TO ratio. Conley is a better PG and makes his team mates better players. There is no doubt which is the better bargain or means more to their respective team as their PG, and it sure isn't George Hill.

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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    You act like it was a top secret that another team was interested in Hill, and no one knew anything about it! This is the NBA where rumors galore abide. The NBA isn't the CIA where secrets abound.

    The point is Walsh was bidding against himself. Hill was a RFA which gave Walsh a chance to match an offer sheet from another team. "NO" NBA team signed Hill to an offer sheet. There is a reason for that. No other teams were interested. IIRC, Hill turned down an offer from Bird previously. The number 7 mil seems to stick in my mind. Other teams weren't interested in Hill at that type of money. Checkbook Donnie rushed in bid against himself, and overpaid Hill when there was no reason to do so. That's why Hill is overpaid. If Hill had stayed in San Antonio, do you truly think RC Buford would have given Hill anything close to a 5 year 40 mil contract?? If you do, then I have some ocean front property down in Brown county I'd like to sell you.

    I felt all long, and I'm on record saying I felt Hill was worth between 4.5 and 5.5 mil. 6 mil wouldn't have been too much, but "8" mil was just plain overpaying. Thank you Mr. Walsh!

    Let's compare Hill with another home state player.... Mike Conley. Both are PG's and Conley makes a little less salary this year. Conley is a TRUE PG, where as Hill isn't. Conley is averaging 15 PPG on 50% FG, 43% 3pt, 81.6% FT. Conley averages 6.5 Ast with a 2-1 Ast/TO ratio. Conley is a better PG and makes his team mates better players. There is no doubt which is the better bargain or means more to their respective team as their PG, and it sure isn't George Hill.
    Conley's salary THIS year is lower, but he is actually being paid 5 million more over the life of the contract. Also, Conley has been playing for the same team, with the same starting 5 for 3 years now. Chemistry and familiarity has as much to do with his numbers as his talent. Why do I say that? Because just last year he averaged 13 and 6, and before that 14 and 6 with respectable shooting %'s. (44% and 37% from 3) The bump in scoring has to do with the fact that he's shooting 50% from the field and 43% from 3, who knows if he'll be able to keep up with that pace, but his career says that he wont.

    Meanwhile this is Hill's first full year of being a PG, and his first full year as a starter for a Pacer team that is missing their best player, and has made a bunch of changes to their bench. He is coming off an injury in pre-season, and is easily having the WORST stretch of shooting within his career (normally 44% from the field and 37% from 3--the exact SAME as Conley).

    So bottom line, with Conley shooting the best he has throughout his career, and Hill shooting the worst within his career, the difference in points is a mere .9ppg and assists is 1.1apg. When you take into account the other factors (Hill's clutch ability, Hill coming off an injury, missing his team's best player, Hill being a first time starter, etc) I think it's clear that the numbers you spoke of for Conley are definitely not worth the EXTRA 5 million dollars throughout the life of the contract.

    So if you want to use Mike Conley as an example, then no, George Hill isnt overpaid.

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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Hill's a good player, but he's still not a PG, and that will be exploited again in the playoffs.

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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    Hill's a good player, but he's still not a PG, and that will be exploited again in the playoffs.
    He is a good player and he is a point guard, at least by my criteria. He doesn't have creativity or court vision, but he is still a floor general. He runs Vogel's plays all the time, much to my dismay, and I really wish he would take the ball to the basket more since his floater is his best shot (especially when he's struggling with his outside shooting).

    Then again, I think all the Pacers other than Hansbrough and West should drive the ball inside more.

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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    Hill's a good player, but he's still not a PG, and that will be exploited again in the playoffs.
    That's funny, who was the last great PG that led his team to a championship? Tony Parker?

    When we lose in the playoffs, it won't be because of Hill.

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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Omer Asik is significantly more valuable than George Hill. I do know no team had the cap space to make GH that kind of offer. I do know no team did offer it because we signed an RFA in such a rush, for no apparent reason, instead of waiting for him to get an offer. Do you really think someone out there was waiting around for the end of the RFA time period to throw GH a 10M a year deal? No? Neither do I nor any other reasonable person on Earth does either.
    Last edited by Dece; 11-28-2012 at 06:51 PM. Reason: that's an awkward sentence... meaning is conveyed though

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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    Omer Asik is significantly more valuable than George Hill. I do know no team had the cap space to make GH that kind of offer. I do know no team did offer it because we signed an RFA in such a rush, for no apparent reason, instead of waiting for him to get an offer. Do you really think someone out there was waiting around for the end of the RFA time period to throw GH a 10M a year deal? No? Neither do I nor any other reasonable person on Earth does either.
    You have to throw out the fact that trading away Kawhi Leonard for a one year rental would be a significant loss... I am sure the weighed on the psyche of pacer's management.
    "We've got to be very clear about this. We don't want our players hanging around with murderers," said Larry Bird, Pacers president.

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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    Omer Asik is significantly more valuable than George Hill. I do know no team had the cap space to make GH that kind of offer. I do know no team did offer it because we signed an RFA in such a rush, for no apparent reason, instead of waiting for him to get an offer. Do you really think someone out there was waiting around for the end of the RFA time period to throw GH a 10M a year deal? No? Neither do I nor any other reasonable person on Earth does either.
    Asik may be more valuable NOW, but prior to this season he was noting but a big physical body that could clog the lane. Meanwhile Hill had shown the ability to be a valuable contributor on playoff teams. We don't know who may have been interested in Hill. But when you compare him to other players making the same amount, he's not grossly overpaid to the point that it's a detriment to the team.

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    Default Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

    One concern that we prevented was a poison pill contract. If we had a feeling that that was looming, locking him up early was brilliant. This is not so far fetched, seeing what happened to Jeremy Lin. If Hill got a Lin offer, we probably would have had to let him go. I bet the Bulls/Knicks wish they wold have done what we did with Hill.

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