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Thread: Too much blame on Vogel

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    Default Too much blame on Vogel

    I feel everyone is blaming coach Vogel too much for the "awful" start to the season so far. He's doing the best he can with the team he has right now. Maybe some of it has to do with Granger being out? But I blame the GM who traded away and released playmakers from last year's team like Collison, Dahntay Jones, Lou, and others. That team had great chemistry and they were productive, both the first and second unit. Now we only have 7 players that are returning to the team this year. The management expected that we'll still be as good and now without Granger and new bench players, it may take a while until they can play together correctly
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    Default Re: Too much blame on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Coopdog23 View Post
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    I feel everyone is blaming coach Vogel too much for the "awful" start to the season so far. He's doing the best he can with the team he has right now. Maybe some of it has to do with Granger being out? But I blame the GM who traded away and released playmakers from last year's team like Collison, Dahntay Jones, Lou, and others. That team had great chemistry and they were productive, both the first and second unit. Now we only have 7 players that are returning to the team this year. The management expected that we'll still be as good and now without Granger and new bench players, it may take a while until they can play together correctly
    Some of it is Granger being out but the fact is that Vogel in in way over his head. He was lucky when he got the interm job and last year, the Pacers, my managements own declaration overperformed. Vogel is consistently be outcoached during games. 7 players returning with all five starters back is pretty good. That should not have been a problem at all. I think this team with Granger out will struggle to make the playoffs. With Granger, I thought they were a five or six seed because several teams really improved their rosters (Heat, Celtics, Knicks, Nets and 76ers if Bynum ever plays). Chicago is holding its own and they will take off and leave the Pacers in the dust if and when their star PG returns. Atlanta is also improved...... ...

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    Default Re: Too much blame on Vogel

    If Lou is a playmaker, Mahinmi is a superstar.

    I really don't see the blame you are talking about. Yeah people complain about the rotations, but there will always be people complaining about the coach. Vogel has shown a willingness to change things when things aren't working. He was slower to change than most fans, but lets be honest most fans won't lose their job if the change just makes the team worse. It is easy to say after one game that Vogel should do this, this, and that when you are sitting on the sideline with no accountability. It is different when your livelihood is at stake.

    Since he did change the offense things have cooled down a lot towards him, to a point where it is best to shrug it off as people being emotional idiots.

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    Default Re: Too much blame on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    Some of it is Granger being out but the fact is that Vogel in in way over his head. He was lucky when he got the interm job and last year, the Pacers, my managements own declaration overperformed. Vogel is consistently be outcoached during games. 7 players returning with all five starters back is pretty good. That should not have been a problem at all. I think this team with Granger out will struggle to make the playoffs. With Granger, I thought they were a five or six seed because several teams really improved their rosters (Heat, Celtics, Knicks, Nets and 76ers if Bynum ever plays). Chicago is holding its own and they will take off and leave the Pacers in the dust if and when their star PG returns. Atlanta is also improved...... ...

    Augustin and Mahimi have been busts so far and Green hasn't done so well either
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    Default Re: Too much blame on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    Some of it is Granger being out but the fact is that Vogel in in way over his head. He was lucky when he got the interm job and last year, the Pacers, my managements own declaration overperformed. Vogel is consistently be outcoached during games. 7 players returning with all five starters back is pretty good. That should not have been a problem at all. I think this team with Granger out will struggle to make the playoffs. With Granger, I thought they were a five or six seed because several teams really improved their rosters (Heat, Celtics, Knicks, Nets and 76ers if Bynum ever plays). Chicago is holding its own and they will take off and leave the Pacers in the dust if and when their star PG returns. Atlanta is also improved...... ...
    Making a comeback OlBlu?
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    Default Re: Too much blame on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Coopdog23 View Post
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    Making a comeback OlBlu?
    I never left. Just speaking my mind and telling you how I see it. I predicted they would be 48-34 with Granger. I don't think Granger would make all that much difference. They are certainly a better defensive team without him and the scoring is more spread out....... ...

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    Default Re: Too much blame on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Coopdog23 View Post
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    Augustin and Mahimi have been busts so far and Green hasn't done so well either
    I think Mahimi has played very well and Green is about what was expected. Anyone thinking you were going to get more out of Augustin is delusional. He was a decent player on one of the worst teams in NBA history. He is about equal with Collison or a little less.... He is not that big of a deal..... ...

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    Default Re: Too much blame on Vogel

    One line from Vogel I really liked was a year or two ago when he said he needed to let guys try to play through tough patches.

    "They will make mistakes," he said. "And I will make mistakes."

    Knowing you can make mistakes is a big step toward success. Now we hear he is benching DJ. I still have hope for Vogel.
    .

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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Too much blame on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Coopdog23 View Post
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    Augustin and Mahimi have been busts so far and Green hasn't done so well either
    Mahinmi has played up and down all year. But he still gives us more than what Lou ever could. Lou was nice because of his energy and hustle, but he wasn't even playing double digit minutes for the most part this early last season--and he eventually turned into a fan fave.

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    Default Re: Too much blame on Vogel

    For the most part I've been encouraged by Franks willingness to recognize something isn't working and change things up.

    1. He changed up the offense after the horrendous start.

    2. He's stopped running it through Hibbert so much.

    3. Lance is starting. Remember Green, then Young, then finally Lance?

    4. Just demoted DJ.

    While he still makes some...interesting decisions, for the most part I think he's done a nice job in 1-1/2 years. I'm not as quick to throw the towel in as some are, and I think moving forward he's showing all the signs of being an excellent Head Coach.

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    Default Re: Too much blame on Vogel

    Vogel did an excellent job with the hand he was dealt his first two seasons (well really, 1/2 seasons) here. This season, he may have struggled a bit. But I think a lot of it also has to do with players struggling, players changing (no continuity. Which is big on a team that depends on teamwork and chemistry instead of star power. Not to mention, sans Lance, most games the bench has stunk.) and no Granger. Do I always agree with what Vogel decides to do. Not necessarily. But there is always a logical foundation behind what he chooses to do, and I can except his decisions because of that.

    No Granger is a huge deal. No Granger mean Paul George feels a tremendous amount of pressure. No Granger means that Vogel has to spend the first couple of weeks trying to find rotations that work in the starting lineup. No Granger means that Hibbert gets a majority of the defensive attention. No Granger means we, as a team, becomes a significantly less of a threat from three. No Granger is huge. And for whatever reason (maybe because people don't want to admit they were wrong about Danny) people ignore the loss of our best player.

    It's natural that when team's struggle for fans to blame the coach. But it's silly. Bottom line is, without Granger, this team is around a .500 team. Regardless of what Frank chooses to do or not do.

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    Default Re: Too much blame on Vogel

    The most important thing a coach can do is put guys in roles that take advantage of their strengths. Don't try and make a guy who can't shoot into a shooter, don't try and make a guy who can't handle the ball create offense, etc. Sometimes those things happen when the personnel on the roster doesn't have the skills you need to run a decent offense, but other times it's simply the case of a coach not using guys the way he should.

    Vogel's tried too hard to make these players fit into an offense that doesn't work without Granger (and without Roy operating effectively/DJ playing like he has in the past). Sam Young is standing around the three point line jacking up threes, and it's not his fault. He hasn't used Green even close to the way he should be used, and he's taken a roster that shouldn't have any issue getting up and down the court in transition into one of the slowest paced teams in the league. This team should be getting out on the break and it should be running an offense predicated on off ball movement. The offensive style they're using right now simply doesn't make any sense for this roster, it kills me to see them run it game in and game out.

    A Gerald Green fan who now finds himself rooting for the Suns.

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    Default Re: Too much blame on Vogel

    Oh I agree that it is not all his fault. But we all have to agree that Vogel is not perfect and is young and growing.....
    Well the line change subs need to stop. That has happened from day 1, and a lesson that Frank refuses to learn from. His offense is so simple and dependent on solid inside play that he is not getting from Roy, Tyler, or penetration from our backcourt. The players get the blame and Frank is switching things around. So I give him props for that and trying to find the right formula.

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    Default Re: Too much blame on Vogel

    I'd be happy to have Lou and Mahinmi actually. Let them be our 4/5 tandem off the bench.

    repole, I don't see that we'd be an all the time running team with Hibbert and West on the floor. But, it does seem like outside them, you could make it work. We looked good at times in the open court against OKC. Lance, George, Green, Tyler at minimum would work well. Would be great if I could put Agustin into that group, but I don't know if he can do anything right now.
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    Default Re: Too much blame on Vogel

    Definitely not a run all the time team, but 28th/30 in the league makes no sense. I mean the Spurs are 3rd and it's not like Tim Duncan is the quickest big in the world anymore.

    To me the signings of Green and DJ were a clear sign that the second unit was going to go up tempo, and yet that never happened.

    A Gerald Green fan who now finds himself rooting for the Suns.

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    Default Re: Too much blame on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    Oh I agree that it is not all his fault. But we all have to agree that Vogel is not perfect and is young and growing.....
    Well the line change subs need to stop. That has happened from day 1, and a lesson that Frank refuses to learn from. His offense is so simple and dependent on solid inside play that he is not getting from Roy, Tyler, or penetration from our backcourt. The players get the blame and Frank is switching things around. So I give him props for that and trying to find the right formula.
    Problem is, Frank really hasn't learned that lesson.

    in his first season, quite often the starters would be down by double digits, and the bench lineup would come in and make the game close again. (Remember the goon squad.) The next season, there were times (until we traded for Barbosa, really) where the same thing happened.

    It's been this season and the tail end of last season where the bench has underperformed. (to say the least.)

    His strategy would be fine, if the bench unit blended well together. As it is, it doesn't.

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    Default Re: Too much blame on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    Oh I agree that it is not all his fault. But we all have to agree that Vogel is not perfect and is young and growing.....
    Well the line change subs need to stop. That has happened from day 1, and a lesson that Frank refuses to learn from. His offense is so simple and dependent on solid inside play that he is not getting from Roy, Tyler, or penetration from our backcourt. The players get the blame and Frank is switching things around. So I give him props for that and trying to find the right formula.
    He is learning slowly. He only does it in the first half now, and is more free flowing in the second half with his substitutions. He isn't changing as quickly as us fans (me included) would like to see, but there is reason to believe he is moving in the right direction.

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    Default Re: Too much blame on Vogel

    Lou brought energy to the team along with Tyler off the bench. That's what is miss from him
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    Default Re: Too much blame on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Mahinmi has played up and down all year. But he still gives us more than what Lou ever could. Lou was nice because of his energy and hustle, but he wasn't even playing double digit minutes for the most part this early last season--and he eventually turned into a fan fave.
    Ian gets a lot of credit for 3 good games, maybe 4. He's still been way more down then up but DJ and Green have set the bar so low he looks like the jackpot from this summers signings.

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    Default Re: Too much blame on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    Ian gets a lot of credit for 3 good games, maybe 4. He's still been way more down then up but DJ and Green have set the bar so low he looks like the jackpot from this summers signings.
    Well, that and the things he did in those games (Played great defense, scored efficiently, held down the 5 while Roy was out) are incredibly important. You have to actually watch to see the value, and the fact that he gave Dwight a bigger challenge than Roy shows how important he can be on this team. Not that Roy was bad, but you usually can't count on a backup 5 to give quality minutes against a beast like Dwight.

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    Default Re: Too much blame on Vogel

    I think in order to improve effectiveness from our second unit, we need to increase our game tempo. Augustin is not a player who will do well feeding the post and playing a slower tempo. He needs to run in transition. I'm just surprised we haven't seen Vogel ask him to get into the lane more offensively, to get the defense moving. We need to have Augustin on the floor with Mahinmi and Hansborough or a flat out small ball lineup. He needs to get more vertical in the pick and roll game and most of Vogel's sets for PnR are more lateral for Hill. That hurts Augustin's quickness, IMO. I love that Vogel has gone away from the five in five out rotations, but it almost would make more sense now than it ever did before with our personnel.

    Personally, I love the things Frank is doing. The team is having to make major adjustments without Granger. Other guys have had to step up into a role they have never thrived in and it shouldn't work itself out quickly. The biggest problem with this season so far, is that fans' expectations. That is it. Our offensive and defensive flow has gotten so much better, yet we have dropped a couple of games to some quality teams. Denver is in a similar situation to us in that their roster is getting adjusted to Iggy and their younger guys finding their games, especially Faried and McGee. Our lineup is more effective against some rosters than others and it shows. We play every team tight whether they are a top five team or bottom five team. That's what defense-dominant teams tend to do. I think Vogel has really improved his play calling and game management. And when he makes a mistake, I see him correct it the next time. His plays have gotten better, even if he is using personnel it wasn't necessarily intended for. Some of that is not making on the fly adjustments as quick as he should, but that is a very difficult skill even for professional coaches. There is a balance between pulling a guy and leetting a guy work through something, because of their personality and the type of mind games you have to play with certain players. Some guys take advice or criticism well in one fashion while others would completely reject the same response. I truly think Vogel can be a very good coach in this league. Just like Bill Belicheck and just about every single coach who has ever coached, you have to make mistakes to learn how to be great. I think Vogel can be that, but it may not necessarily be here and now.
    "Your course, your path, is not going to be like mine," West says. "Everybody is not called to be a multimillionaire. Everybody's not called to be the president. Whatever your best work is, you do it. Do it well. … You cease your own greatness when you aspire to be someone else."

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