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Thread: This team needs to be blown up (OLD thread!! 2012)

  1. #151
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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    There are two ways to approach this issue.

    #1 way: This year's team is underachieving.

    #2 way: Last year's team was overachieving.

    Given that our best player is missing and we have a brand new bench that has still to find any chemistry or rhythm I'm much more inclined towards the 1st option.

    It's the most logical assumption imo but in general I'm a glass half full kind of person.
    Option 1 is keeping them in the lottery, option 3(they play a bit better) is going to keep them in 8th or 7th place.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    No Danny, worse bench, Roy sucking, teams getting better and actually upgrading.
    1) Danny will not be out for the whole season. If Danny is to be out for the whole season then you can feel free to overwrite most of the things I've said as wrong as I'm counting on Danny to be back on February as it has been stated.

    2) The bench will not look like that for the whole season. Ian, Green, DJ and Young need some time to mesh together. It's almost an entirely new bench. You cannot expect results from day 1, imo.

    3) Roy will not suck for the whole season. He has been in such slumps again only to emerge again as the Roy we all know and love (and sometimes even better).

    4) I agree that teams like the Knicks and the Nets got better. But teams like the Hawks and the Bulls got slightly worse (granted, the Bulls mainly due to Rose's injury). Orlando got a lot worse and Philly is a wild card. If we played as good as we played last year we would have no problem to secure the Central. Of course, we're playing a lot worse than last year. Still, I have faith that we can turn this around and secure a 4th to 6th seed.

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    People don't want to hear it but NY and Brooklyn had a lot things happening to them last year reason why the Pacers were better than them, Amare out, Melo out of shape and injured, Brook Lopez out, Deron got hurt, coaching changes in NY, etc.
    Please stop with the "people don't want to hear it" thing. It is annoying and untrue. People don't want to listen to exaggerations and overreactions. They have no problem listening to some actual facts.

    1) Brook Lopez being out was a valid problem for the Nets. Shelden Williams is simply not a starter. Johan Petro is one of the worst big men that France ever produced. Their front court rotation (except Humphries) was brutal.

    2) Deron getting hurt was a problem as well, of course. The Nets sucked last year for those simple and valid reasons. It makes absolute sense that they are good now.

    3) Amare being out does not seem to be such a big problem for the Knicks now, does it? It never was. Amare is still not a good fit with Melo. They will never be a good fit.

    4) Woodson is a lot better than D' Antoni for the Knicks. Their last season surge was not a fluke. This Knicks team is not bad at all. But with Danny we can still beat them. Just like we did last year.

    Both the Knicks and the Nets are legit this season. But I have no reason to believe that they are any better than we were last year.

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    There are many reasons to believe that Danny is not coming back this year and even if he does there are many reasons to believe that he is not going to be healthy enough to make a difference, there are also reasons to believe that he is never going to be the same Danny ever again, so hoping for Danny to come back and fix everything is just a dream.
    Then please explain those reasons to me.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    If our offense was as good as it was last year this team would have one of the best records in the league, and we most likely only have 2 or 3 losses.
    Yeah I don't know about that, just so you know I can also play the IF game too, "IF Wall and Nene are healthy we don't win either games against Washington".....

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Looking back on our games, I count up to four games we probably win with Danny, even with our warts. That would have us at 9-3, 3rd in the east. Gives me some perspective.

    It's not that we don't have a lot of issues, it's that we're talented enough when healthy to win ugly versus bad and mediocre teams. Which would keep us afloat while we tighten things up. Instead, we've stepped over the threshold and lost those games, hence the crappy record.

    In other words, this start is nauseating, but it's not that the team is dying. It's just got a stomach flu.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    You are right that having players back completely changes games, but that isn't something the Pacers can control and not really an accurate comparison. They can control how well they play on offense, and so far only two teams have outscored last years Pacers average in regulation.

  7. #156

    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    I love your optimism, but the reality is that the NBA is a superstar-driven league. We don't have any. What happened last year was not a good blueprint for the future success of the Pacers. Our best player right now is arguably David West, who is probably a top 15-20 player in the east. That's not going to get it done
    So because the Pacers don't have a superstar, they should do what exactly? Hope one falls in their laps? Trade any or all the current players and bottom out and hope to draft one? If its so easy how do they do it?

    The starters push the eventual NBA champs to six games, the team makes significant changes to the bench, and now 11 games in and 1 major injury later and all of a sudden they're not good enough. The run is over. They have no superstar so they should blow things up. A lot of you guys are as bad at talking basketball as the Pacers are playing right now.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    So the Pacers lucked out last season because many teams lost one of if not their best player? So does this mean that many teams THIS year are lucking out because the Pacers are without their best player? Does it not work this way?

    I've been one of the ones that have advocated in flipping an asset or two in order to make our roster compliment eachother a little more. I'm a bit on the pessimistic side that Danny will come back in February, AND will be the Danny of old. No he never relied on athleticism or quickness, BUT knee injuries are brutal to come back from--and can often times be a chronic issue. We won't know until he comes back, but by the time he comes back, it will have been too late for us to realize what we need, and the opportunity to flip an asset or two for another scorer will have been lost.

    With us having an elite defense thus far, we will have a chance in most games. And yes, most of our players are shooting at career low levels--so there is a chance for us to turn things around with our current group. I guess I'd just feel a lot more comfortable if we had at least one player who can put the ball in the basket. Not even at an elite, or even a stater level. Just someone who can consistently knock down open shots.

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  10. #158

    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Well to put another perspective, let's look at the Miami team on the first few games with their new players (James, Bosh, etc.). They were touted as champions in the offseason yet they "sucked" (they were still a little above 0.500) in their first 20+ games, including their bad loss to the "mediocre" Pacers. Yet after that they managed to recover and even became the #2 seed, eventually reaching the finals.

    Now, I'm not saying that the current team will become like that, or that we're as strong as Miami that time. I'm just showing that early struggles are still recoverable, and they just need to pull themselves together. Hibbert is still struggling, but I believe he'll eventually recover his "all-star" self. George is struggling offensively, but he's still doing well on defense most of the time. I'm sure his shooting woes are more psychological. West and Hill cannot carry the game by themselves all the time, but they're doing what they can while their 2 struggling buddies are trying to figure things out. Lance is still adjusting too from EOB (end-of-the-bench) to starter role, so they'll make plays for him as he grows on the court. The new bench are struggling because they play together most of the time and there's not much chemistry yet, but I'm sure they'll solve their problems when they start playing more together.

    Let's just relax and back off the legde for the meantime. The losses really hurt especially that we have played low-tier teams for the most part, but there are still a lot of games to play and anything can happen, not only on the Pacers but also on the 29 teams. Just look at last year's Boston, Chicago and Orlando at the start and at the end.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    I love your optimism, but the reality is that the NBA is a superstar-driven league. We don't have any. What happened last year was not a good blueprint for the future success of the Pacers. Our best player right now is arguably David West, who is probably a top 15-20 player in the east. That's not going to get it done
    In the end, it's still basketball. The NBA can be as much of a superstar-driven league as it wants. In the end the best team wins.

    Miami wouldn't win last year if their role players didn't hit their open shots. It was LeBron and Wade that lead them to the championship but even them couldn't do it alone. They needed that contribution by the rest of their team because basketball is a team game.

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  13. #160
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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    maybe the trailblazers still want hibbert, we'll take batum off their hands and lilliard

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    True but last year was one of those years were multiple stars got hurt opening the door for teams like the Pacers, Philly, Denver, etc, have you noticed that neither one of those teams look as good as they looked in the beginning of last year? it has been reported by many people that in short seasons young teams do pretty well, the same happened in the previous lockout.
    1) Philly shook up their line-up considerably. They traded Iguodala for Bynum. They also amnestied Elton Brand and let Lou Williams and Jodie Meeks walk. They replaced them with Dorrel Wright, Jason Richardson and Nick Young. That's a significant number of changes. Plus, Bynum is hurt and Kwame Brown is starting. You cannot expect them to replicate last year's performance as they need a lot of time to gel. This year's Sixers are not the same team with last year's Sixers.

    2) Denver is not the same team either. They gave up some depth in Arron Afflalo and Al Harrington in order to trade for Andre Iguodala. Is it going to work? Who knows? It's still early to tell. They are not the same team as last year either.

    So, as you can see out of the teams you mentioned it's only the Pacers that have maintained the same core as last year. The only problem is that our best player is injured. Which means that we're not the same team until he comes back.

    Conclusion: The whole "young teams do pretty well on lock out seasons" narrative is just that. A narrative. It's not an actual fact.

    However, you have every right to believe that it's true

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Not only that but the Pacers were also doing something that many people didn't have an explanation for, they had a pretty good defense(like this year) and a horrible offense(like this year) and they were still able to win ugly games.
    The offense was equally ugly but it wasn't as bad.

    Wanna know the difference?

    I'll focus on two important but often underestimated elements of the game. Free throws and turnovers. Let's compare last season to this season, shall we?

    Percent of Points from FTs (last season): 20.7% (1st)

    Percent of Points from FTs (this season): 19.0% (12nd)

    Free Throw % (last season): 78.1% (5th)

    Free Throw % (this season): 73.2% (24th)

    FTMs (Free Throws made) per Game (last season): 20.1 (2nd)

    FTMs per Game (this season): 16.8 (16th)

    FTAs per Game (last season): 25.7 (3rd)

    FTAs per Game (this season): 23.0 (17th)

    FTA per FGA (last season): 0.316 (3rd)

    FTA per FGA (this season): 0.286 (15th)

    FTM per 100 Possessions (last season): 21.171 (2nd)

    FTM per 100 Possessions (this season): 17.672 (18th)

    FTA per Offensive Play (last season): 23.9% (2nd)

    FTA per Offensive Play (this season): 21.3% (16th)

    Turnovers per Game (last season): 14.2 (tied at 11th)

    Turnovers per Game (this season): 16.9 (29th)

    Turnovers per Possession (last season): 15.0% (tied at 12th)

    Turnovers per Possession (this season): 17.8% (30th)

    Turnovers per Offensive Play (last season): 13.2% (tied at 9th)

    Turnovers per Offensive Play (this season): 15.7% (28th)

    You can find all those stats here -> http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/team-stats/

    Our offense last season wasn't pretty but it was effective. We were an elite team when it came to free throws and we were above average in taking care of the ball.

    This season? We are a middle of the road team when it comes in free throws and one of the worst in taking care of the ball. Couple that with Danny's absence and Roy's below par play and one can easily explain why we look that bad.

    Conclusion: You can have an effective offense even if it looks ugly as far as FG% and APG go, if you simply take care of the ball, go to the line often and hit your FTs. That's what we did last season. I have no reason to believe that we won't be able to do this again this season. It's vital for our success to improve in those areas and reach last year's standards.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by MAStamper View Post
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    The logic doesn't even require optimism, really. A team with previous success/talent is struggling while its best player sits and practically everyone else is playing below their mean average. When you consider that, the choice seems pretty obvious, whether you tend to be optimistic, pessimistic, or indifferent.
    I agree but as I generally tend to be an optimistic person I felt the need to point it out in order for the logic to be as impartial as possible.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Option 1 is keeping them in the lottery, option 3(they play a bit better) is going to keep them in 8th or 7th place.
    Why? I didn't say that they are going to underachieve for the next 70 games

    There's plenty of time to turn this around and stop underachieving. If we do that, we can grab a quite good seed.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by MAStamper View Post
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    Looking back on our games, I count up to four games we probably win with Danny, even with our warts. That would have us at 9-3, 3rd in the east. Gives me some perspective.

    It's not that we don't have a lot of issues, it's that we're talented enough when healthy to win ugly versus bad and mediocre teams. Which would keep us afloat while we tighten things up. Instead, we've stepped over the threshold and lost those games, hence the crappy record.

    In other words, this start is nauseating, but it's not that the team is dying. It's just got a stomach flu.
    I tend to agree about the record & to be honest with you I feel Danny would have taken the Bucks game because as we all know Danny Gragner is Monta Ellis idol, lord and master. That part is for you know who which will be replying shortly.

    However what concerns me is while it is painfully apperant Danny Granger is far better as a talent than even I thought what happens if he does not recover from this or if he is only 1/4 or even 1/2 the player he was? You know who will also be responding about this as well but there is some merit to this concern. This isn't inflamation or even an injury, this is a degeneration so I'm not sure what the recovery will be like.

    But worst case scenario I think that it's painfully apperant that the team as structured would not be anything more than a midling first round and out team in the future.

    Now of course when Danny returns riding the white horse and takes us to the second round from the 7th or 8th position & everyone has to finally bow to him (this is also for the benefit of you know who) we can pretend like this has just been a bad dream.


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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    I don't know what'll happen when Danny comes back, but if we win like 70% of our games with him it's going to be awesome to see him get worshipped all around the internet. He's taken unneeded hate for years.

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  21. #166
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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I tend to agree about the record & to be honest with you I feel Danny would have taken the Bucks game because as we all know Danny Gragner is Monta Ellis idol, lord and master. That part is for you know who which will be replying shortly.

    However what concerns me is while it is painfully apperant Danny Granger is far better as a talent than even I thought what happens if he does not recover from this or if he is only 1/4 or even 1/2 the player he was? You know who will also be responding about this as well but there is some merit to this concern. This isn't inflamation or even an injury, this is a degeneration so I'm not sure what the recovery will be like.

    But worst case scenario I think that it's painfully apperant that the team as structured would not be anything more than a midling first round and out team in the future.

    Now of course when Danny returns riding the white horse and takes us to the second round from the 7th or 8th position & everyone has to finally bow to him (this is also for the benefit of you know who) we can pretend like this has just been a bad dream.
    Is it degeneration? I thought what I had read said that it was something that takes a long time to get this bad and also takes about the same length of time of rest to feel better again. If rest can make it feel better, how can it be a degeneration? I thought degeneration meant something that is gone and that's it?

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by MAStamper View Post
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    Is it degeneration? I thought what I had read said that it was something that takes a long time to get this bad and also takes about the same length of time of rest to feel better again. If rest can make it feel better, how can it be a degeneration? I thought degeneration meant something that is gone and that's it?
    It does mean that. You're right in all those statements. Which is a BIG deal when Danny expires after next year. Danny's never going to be 26 year old Danny again. Old school and non-dependent on athleticism as his game may be it really doesn't matter, a "non-explosive" arsenal isn't the same as not being able to run. He makes it in the league to 35 he's going to be an off the bench spot shooter those last couple years in my opinion. That's what he'll be best suited for anyway.

    We re-sign/extend Danny expecting him to be a core piece during that contract then it's a major mistake. For better or worse I hope we let Danny, who I like immensely, pursue greener pastures after this contract just because I don't think he'll be able to make the money worthwhile. It's one thing to gripe about a 26 year old 7'2 guy making a ton of money but at least he's (knock on wood) healthy as an ox and plays consistently outstanding rim defense and can give you a solid 15ppg a night, we'll see. Dumping a bunch of money into a 3rd contract for Danny would just be a bad investment in my opinion, and I love the guy. Unless it's really franchise friendly I'm fine with letting him walk.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by MAStamper View Post
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    Is it degeneration? I thought what I had read said that it was something that takes a long time to get this bad and also takes about the same length of time of rest to feel better again. If rest can make it feel better, how can it be a degeneration? I thought degeneration meant something that is gone and that's it?
    Yeah, I think he meant chronic, not degenerative.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Yeah, I think he meant chronic, not degenerative.
    They're sort of the same thing when it comes to sports (a career is a short lifespan), but tendonosis is a degenerative problem. It's not really correctable, not while continuing a pro sports career.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by MAStamper View Post
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    Is it degeneration? I thought what I had read said that it was something that takes a long time to get this bad and also takes about the same length of time of rest to feel better again. If rest can make it feel better, how can it be a degeneration? I thought degeneration meant something that is gone and that's it?
    It's degeneration as it pertains to being able to keep up with he rigors of professional sports. This problem wont go away--within his pro career. Now later on in life, Danny will be able to walk just fine and lead a normal life. But as far as being able to jump, cut, etc--his knee issues will constantly be an issue. The 3 month timetable is so the swelling and pain can subside. Once he comes back, he'll be able to ice his knee in order to deal with the pain for the rest of the season. But moving forward, his knee will most likely always be a problem of some sort.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    It does mean that. You're right in all those statements. Which is a BIG deal when Danny expires after next year. Danny's never going to be 26 year old Danny again. Old school and non-dependent on athleticism as his game may be it really doesn't matter, a "non-explosive" arsenal isn't the same as not being able to run. He makes it in the league to 35 he's going to be an off the bench spot shooter those last couple years in my opinion. That's what he'll be best suited for anyway.

    We re-sign/extend Danny expecting him to be a core piece during that contract then it's a major mistake. For better or worse I hope we let Danny, who I like immensely, pursue greener pastures after this contract just because I don't think he'll be able to make the money worthwhile. It's one thing to gripe about a 26 year old 7'2 guy making a ton of money but at least he's (knock on wood) healthy as an ox and plays consistently outstanding rim defense and can give you a solid 15ppg a night, we'll see. Dumping a bunch of money into a 3rd contract for Danny would just be a bad investment in my opinion, and I love the guy. Unless it's really franchise friendly I'm fine with letting him walk.
    I've always thought Danny's career could evolve to what Rashard Lewis ended up being on ORL and now on MIA. A (excuse my language) stretch 4 who can play with a post player and simply knock down long 3's. If we could re-sign him for 6-8 Mil a yr with the idea that he'll be our 3rd-4th option offensively--I'd be willing to re-sign him. It just means we need to sign, trade for, or draft someone that can be good 1st and 2nd options as well.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Danny to me has been lucky to play this long, many teams passed on him in draft night because they never thought he was going to be able to play this long, I don't expect Danny to be Danny ever again but I hope I'm wrong.

    And with that said the Pacers should start to make plans with life after Danny Granger, failing to do so is going to put this team in a whole for years to come.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    I've always thought Danny's career could evolve to what Rashard Lewis ended up being on ORL and now on MIA. A (excuse my language) stretch 4 who can play with a post player and simply knock down long 3's. If we could re-sign him for 6-8 Mil a yr with the idea that he'll be our 3rd-4th option offensively--I'd be willing to re-sign him. It just means we need to sign, trade for, or draft someone that can be good 1st and 2nd options as well.
    I always compared Danny to Rashard Lewis and people here gave me s*** for it, glad to know that somebody also think the same thing.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I always compared Danny to Rashard Lewis and people here gave me s*** for it, glad to know that somebody also think the same thing.
    Pre-ORL Rashard Lewis was a very very good player. He wasn't a superstar, but he was basically a taller and tad bit more athletic version of Danny.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I always compared Danny to Rashard Lewis and people here gave me s*** for it, glad to know that somebody also think the same thing.
    you are the Great Carnac of NBA prognostication. when's the last time you were wrong? or is it always "well...I said so...once upon a time..because I said I said so...."

    I've spent a ton of time on message boards, you're the single most negative "fan" I've ever seen, bay far

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