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Thread: This team needs to be blown up (OLD thread!! 2012)

  1. #201
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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    This is why I must sit in the front row or I don't watch the game at all. I don't get why so many fans here settle for 2nd rate viewing situations. Perennial losers I guess.
    Some of us don't consider front row as superior. In fact I hate sitting in the front row of the floor level.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    It's a chicken or an egg thing, I get what you're saying, winning can make you a super star.

    But maybe superstars just win?

    Dunno, it's tough for me to not agree with the superstar folks after last year, not saying you can't win a title with a TEAM, just saying it's a lot harder when you hit the playoffs.
    You also have to take into consideration that the team is still young, and it is rare that a young team wins the championship. It is usually veteran teams who have played together for a full season or two before they win a championship.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    It's a chicken or an egg thing, I get what you're saying, winning can make you a super star.

    But maybe superstars just win?

    Dunno, it's tough for me to not agree with the superstar folks after last year, not saying you can't win a title with a TEAM, just saying it's a lot harder when you hit the playoffs.
    It is a little chicken-egg, I don't disagree. I just hate they "you must have" when every season there are more teams failing using that model than winning.

    I mean guys like Melo or Nash qualify as superstars and they don't make the Finals even. And then guys like Ellis or Joe Johnson or Blake Griffin - if their TEAM wins it all and they are playing, they are going to obtain superstar status unless they just were miserable in the post-season.


    There's a similar stat of "must have a top 5 pick". Well no s*** all the title teams have top picks. That's because you have 8-10 active draft classes which makes 40-50 top 5 picks, and with a salary cap it's kinda hard for teams to assemble more than 2. Miami is barely getting by and has a bench so bad they could lose games for them. They are paying those 3 players nearly their entire cap space and they didn't even draft 2 of them.

    Plus top 5 picks have less uncertainty for failure. They might not be stars but they have enough talent to stay in the league and land on teams, whereas pick #20 is hit and miss. So then you find that many teams have a top 5 pick which qualifies them for this rule (ahem, Mike Dunleavy) so the odds are that a random choice of teams will have a top 5 guy on it.


    Just like no one threw out the stupid "no FA will sign in Indy" theory even though David West took a dump all over it in the first off-season the Pacers ever had cap space to go after someone, at least since maybe 1986.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 11-21-2012 at 02:41 PM.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    This is why I must sit in the front row or I don't watch the game at all. I don't get why so many fans here settle for 2nd rate viewing situations. Perennial losers I guess.
    You and Bill were season ticket holders when JOB was the coach I don't think you can judge other people for expecting more out of the team, as I see it doesn't matter if the worse coach in Pacers history is coaching because you two are still going to go to the games.

    My point is that anytime you are telling me anything about the team and "how happy we should be just to make it to the playoffs and don't set your goals too high or you are going to be miserable" I take it with a truck load of salt because I know that either way you are going to be there.

    No disrespect but fans like you are the ones that keep mediocre teams stay mediocre, when a front office knows that you are going to show up not matter what they don't try hard to put a product that could actually compete for a championship, again no disrespect

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    You and Bill were season ticket holders when JOB was the coach I don't think you can judge other people for expecting more out of the team, as I see it doesn't matter if the worse coach in Pacers history is coaching because you two are still going to go to the games.

    My point is that anytime you are telling me anything about the team and "how happy we should be just to make it to the playoffs and don't set your goals too high or you are going to be miserable" I take it with a truck load of salt because I know that either way you are going to be there.

    No disrespect but fans like you are the ones that keep mediocre teams stay mediocre, when a front office knows that you are going to show up not matter what they don't try hard to put a product that could actually compete for a championship, again no disrespect
    Pretty much all of this post is completely hilarious and BS too.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    This is a self-fulfilling prophecy. When you win you are then viewed as a superstar, and when you don't win it's always counted against you even if you are a superstar.

    Paul Pierce saw his status rise dramatically just by being a top scorer on the Celtics title team, and even KG and Ray Allen saw improvements in how they were viewed. But KG had better years and looked sharper while in Minny failing to win it all.

    Barkley and Reggie were on the flipside always having to justify their status.


    If the Pacers last year had won it all then people would think of West, Danny and maybe Roy as great. Keep in mind that to win it all they would have had to have more games like the ones where they beat Miami, so now you have more times on TV scoring points, more times being shown as the winner, more times having your image redefined by the media.

    Same guys, different view. And suddenly everyone says "we gotta follow the Indiana model to draft well and home-grow the superstars" or "first Detroit and now Indiana have proven that it's a different era". I know this is true because it's how all sports are reported and viewed.

    Whatever works is what is defined as great, even if 5 other teams have the same thing and flopped. And this definitely applies to "must have a superstar" because every season tons of all-stars and Dream Team types go home empty handed and no one says "time to throw that model away because it failed".
    First time I hear that superstars are build on the playoffs, I guess Lebron was not a superstar before winning the finals, Wade was not a superstar before winning a championship, yep Howard, CP3 and Melo are not superstars either.

    I would also like to know how many superstar less teams have won the Championship? one out of how many? and the team that did it had multiple all stars hitting their prime at the same time.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    No disrespect but fans like you are the ones that keep mediocre teams stay mediocre, when a front office knows that you are going to show up not matter what they don't try hard to put a product that could actually compete for a championship, again no disrespect
    You mean fans that actually like the franchise, and just don't jump on the bandwagon when they're good? FOR SHAME!

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    You mean fans that actually like the franchise, and just don't jump on the bandwagon when they're good? FOR SHAME!
    Fans like Seth and BillS and other folks who stick it out and buy tickets are the fans that people who stop spending money on the franchise should be thanking when they come rushing back when the going gets good again. To say that fans supporting the team is one of the reasons the team will stay mediocre is literally one of the dumbest things I have ever read.

    Anyone with half a brain could figure out that a team that is making more money with more supportive fans is going to be more willing and more able (!This is the key thing) to spend on big time players or on risky trades.

    The Colts got rid of Manning this offseason not because they thought the fans are just blind dummies who would hang around whether or not the Colts were good or bad, they did it because they could take a chance on Luck because the fans are loyal.

    You want Simon/Walsh/et. al. to feel comfortable taking risks? Then you better be willing to put your butt in a seat whether the team is 50-32 or 32-50.
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 11-21-2012 at 03:04 PM.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    First time I hear that superstars are build on the playoffs, I guess Lebron was not a superstar before winning the finals, Wade was not a superstar before winning a championship, yep Howard, CP3 and Melo are not superstars either.

    I would also like to know how many superstar less teams have won the Championship? one out of how many? and the team that did it had multiple all stars hitting their prime at the same time.
    And really, what actually happens when these superstars fail to win championships? It's pretty much always because they lose to a team with another superstar. Only 1 team can win it all every year. And when guys like Magic, Bird, Jordan, Kobe and Duncan dominate the game for years at a time, it's not like there's much to go around for everyone else (and thus the countless posts complaining about competitive balance, parity).

    Main reason Karl Malone never won was because Jordan beat him during his best oppurtunities. It's not all that scientific.

    Heck, if Jordan hadn't taken a hiatus for a couple years playing baseball, it's very possible people would be talking and analyzing why Hakeem was another superstar never good enough to win a ring.
    Last edited by d_c; 11-21-2012 at 03:11 PM.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    You mean fans that actually like the franchise, and just don't jump on the bandwagon when they're good? FOR SHAME!
    I like those fans(I like Seth, Peck, Bills, etc) I just don't feel like those fans have the right to tell me how upset I should be if the Pacers are out of the playoffs in the first round or don't make it because they go to games and buy seasons tickets not matter what.

    I other words their point of view is way different than those of us that are not season ticket holders and those of us that don't like to watch a s*** product on the floor.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I like those fans(I like Seth, Peck, Bills, etc) I just don't feel like those fans have the right to tell me how upset I should be if the Pacers are out of the playoffs in the first round or don't make it because they go to games and buy seasons tickets not matter what.

    I other words their point of view is way different than those of us that are not season ticket holders and those of us that don't like to watch a s*** product on the floor.
    How does not spending money make a difference though? "Oh well we aren't getting anyt tickets, guess we should go trade for someone with a max deal...oh wait, we can't afford that"

    You don't have any right to tell them how they should feel either and to accuse them of being the reason the team remains mediocre? Basically just calling them blind sheep? Complete and utter BS.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I like those fans(I like Seth, Peck, Bills, etc) I just don't feel like those fans have the right to tell me how upset I should be if the Pacers are out of the playoffs in the first round or don't make it because they go to games and buy seasons tickets not matter what.

    I other words their point of view is way different than those of us that are not season ticket holders and those of us that don't like to watch a s*** product on the floor.
    Pointing out your unreasonable expectations isn't telling you that you don't have a right to feel a certain way. Stop with the victimization already.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Fans like Seth and BillS and other folks who stick it out and buy tickets are the fans that people who stop spending money on the franchise should be thanking when they come rushing back when the going gets good again. To say that fans supporting the team is one of the reasons the team will stay mediocre is literally one of the dumbest things I have ever read.

    Anyone with half a brain could figure out that a team that is making more money with more supportive fans is going to be more willing and more able (!This is the key thing) to spend on big time players or on risky trades.

    The Colts got rid of Manning this offseason not because they thought the fans are just blind dummies who would hang around whether or not the Colts were good or bad, they did it because they could take a chance on Luck because the fans are loyal.

    You want Simon/Walsh/et. al. to feel comfortable taking risks? Then you better be willing to put your butt in a seat whether the team is 50-32 or 32-50.
    I bet the Colts are selling tickets because they have Andrew Luck and not Curtis Painter, and I'm sorry I'm not expending money on a team whose goal is just to be mediocre every year.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I bet the Colts are selling tickets because they have Andrew Luck and not Curtis Painter, and I'm sorry I'm not expending money on a team whose goal is just to be mediocre every year.
    The Colts soldout every game last year, with Painter as QB and Luck at Stanford. Atleast pick accurate examples.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I bet the Colts are selling tickets because they have Andrew Luck and not Curtis Painter, and I'm sorry I'm not expending money on a team whose goal is just to be mediocre every year.
    Ok then you have zero right to complain about how much money they spend or don't spend.

    I own office buildings it is my job, I'm able to reinvest in my properties because people pay me rent. I couldn't do that if they didn't pay me rent. Now you would say oh they wouldn't pay you rent if you didn't do that. Do you see what I'm saying? There are similarities here.

    My point on both examples, it is a two way street man, you want us to go swing for the fences? To make a trade for a guy like James Harden and then invest $80 million in him? Then you should be willing to spend on the team.

    To say that the team stays mediocre because guys like Seth and Bill are just willing to keep dumping money into the team is just totally backwards and it flies in the face of what this team did in the 90s. So unless you think the Simons have just totally changed their tune maybe you should really think about what you are saying.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    The Colts soldout every game last year, with Painter as QB and Luck at Stanford. Atleast pick accurate examples.
    They sold out because they thought Manning was coming back and a lot of those tickets were sold before the season started so you are wrong.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    The Colts soldout every game last year, with Painter as QB and Luck at Stanford. Atleast pick accurate examples.
    Yeah but we didn't lose season ticket holders in 2011 because everyone assumed that Manning would play like he always had. It wasn't until late August that we knew Manning wasn't playing. We lost 13% of the season ticket holders even with a hyped player like Luck coming in. We've come close to not selling out a couple of the games. If we had another year of Painter or if this current team was really terrible even with Luck, then I fear we would have had a couple of blackouts.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    They sold out because they thought Manning was coming back and a lot of those tickets were sold before the season started so you are wrong.
    People thought the Colts were going to be total **** when this season started. Most expected 2-3 wins, and the Colts were still selling out an early game against a Minnesota Vikings squad then. No one knew what they would turn into. The Colts have been able to throw money around like drunk frat boys at a strip club because of the fan support. If people like you had jumped off the bandwagon in the mid 2000s because we weren't winning super bowls every year, they wouldn't have been able to do this. It's simple economics. You want the Pacers to spend, to make big deals, to go for home runs, but yet you say you won't spend when they suck, only when they are good again. Well that is a ****** way to make good things happen.

    You say anything short of a championship is pretty much a failure, how you expect any team to ever live up to that? It's not possible.
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 11-21-2012 at 03:21 PM.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Yeah but we didn't lose season ticket holders in 2011 because everyone assumed that Manning would play like he always had. It wasn't until late August that we knew Manning wasn't playing. We lost 13% of the season ticket holders even with a hyped player like Luck coming in. We've come close to not selling out a couple of the games. If we had another year of Painter or if this current team was really terrible even with Luck, then I fear we would have had a couple of blackouts.
    They sold out those early season games even when people thought the Colts would suck.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    Miami played outstanding team defense. Offensively, it was only Wade and James. Superstars win championships. What makes that series painful, is that they beat us missing their 3rd superstar Bosh. That series was there for the taking, but we simply lacked the talent to get it done
    No, it was not only Wade and James. I clearly remember Chalmers going off in a game when Wade couldn't get it done. I also remember Battier and Miller hitting some big 3s and Haslem hitting some key jumpers.

    It was mainly Wade and James but without the help from the rest of their team they wouldn't be able to do it.

    Also, I don't think we lacked the talent to get it done. What we lacked was clearly the execution to do so.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Pointing out your unreasonable expectations isn't telling you that you don't have a right to feel a certain way. Stop with the victimization already.
    Those expectations were set up by the Pacers front office and their 3,4,5,6 maybe seven or eight years rebuilding plan, they didn't say "hey let's wait for the contracts to expire so we can sign a bunch of scrubs back", they said "we are going to do whatever is possible to build a team were we can compete for a championship" have they done that? nope.

    We were all fooled to think that they were really going to do something and we bought the bs they were selling.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    They sold out those early season games even when people thought the Colts would suck.


    True, but it has been very close a couple of times. If the team was say 2-8 right now, then I fear this Bills game would be a blackout. Just a guess though.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    It's fine to say the Pacers had a bad plan, but to act like they didn't spend? 58 million Roy Hibbert? 20 million on David West? 40 million on George Hill? The Pacers spent a lot of money and they did it on guys they thought could win, you disagree with that, but you are acting like they mislead you or something. They did no such thing.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Basically, Vnzla, you can say whatever you want, but you pretty much said fans that consistently spend on the Pacers are a reason the franchise will stay "mediocre". There is no way for us to find middle ground on this because fundamentally your point makes no sense, and frankly it is offensive to those who have had season tickets through the bad and good years (me being one of those people).

    I support the Pacers because I want to see them succeed, not because I'm just a big idiot who lights piles of money on fire.

    So as far as I'm concerned, this conversation is over, but speaking as someone who had season tix when we were watching JOB run his BS all day, and then you saying people like me are the reason this team will stay mediocre, well, you can pretty much just bite me.

    And yes, I did take this personally, because it is my money and I choose to spend on the Pacers out of loyalty, and your suggestion is basically that folks like me (apparently Bill and Seth specifically) well we are just big idiots who don't get to have an opinion because we will spend our money on pretty much anything according to you. And evil Simon will just laugh all the way to the bank as he watches us suckers filter into arena as part of his master plan to stay "mediocre"
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 11-21-2012 at 03:32 PM.

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    Default Re: This team needs to be blown up

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    So I'm negative because I'm saying that Danny is like Rashard Lewis? are you serious? I wasn't even talking to you anyway, you need a hug or something?
    BUILD THAT NARRATIVE. You lack any semblance of critical thinking ability.

    TRADE FOR MONTA GUYS!

    Seriously, root for a different team.

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    Last Post: 12-08-2007, 06:28 PM

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