This. Herb Simon is a real estate and business man. The majority of owners in the NBA are not hands on basketball guys. They have other businesses to run. Do you think Herb Simon's major income stream comes from the Pacers? IMO, the only restriction he has ever put on his management team is "no LT". Bird said he and Herb had commited to around 64 million for this team. The end results is closer to 69 million iirc. This is and has not been a really restrited ownership especiallly when you own one of the lowest attended teams in the league. If Simon didn't love the Pacers and the City, this team would have been sold years ago. Simon should have sold the team after the 60+ win season when it's value was probably at it's highest. JMHO.
Buying high and selling low is never prudent...
Nothing in life worth having comes easy.
Last edited by jtroub8; 11-20-2012 at 04:00 PM.
I so wish we could vote some "fans" off the island and ban them from returning when the team turns things around. I'm not against criticism and I'm often pretty critical myself, but every year we have "blow it up" and "tank away" and a bunch of other 19 year old lost puppy love reactions of "I'll never love again, you don't know my pain".
Some people just need to avoid posting mid-game right when things are sour. Other people just seem beyond hope. The team has come out of the gate clunky, but the players don't look specifically untalented and nearly all of them have played better in prior seasons.
It's been a lot of bad teams, but it's also been MORE ROAD GAMES THAN ANY TEAM has played. So maybe we are misreading some aspects, maybe we are underestimating chemistry issues or the loss of Danny.
The point is that it's insanely too soon to start talking about tearing the whole team apart. Frank is the closest to the hot seat and even he deserves time to figure things out. He's only in trouble if the team goes off into the ditch. They've threatened to do so, but so far they've kept a couple of wheels on the road which means he should continue to have a shot to get things on track.
The point I was making is that even if the lottery balls bounce your way, your team has to first be one of the worst teams in the league, second hope to wind up with superstar instead of a Darko or Marvin Williams, third try to build a team around that superstar to turn the team from a loser to a contender, and finally worry about keeping said superstar player when his contract is up.
That recipe fails more often than it succeeds.
I'm down with the Pacers trading one or maybe even 2 of their players to get a proven scorer added to the roster but I'm not interested in adding a bunch of youngs that might or might not pan out. I'm convinced that you only win a championship with team lead by All-Star veteran players. The draft is a crap shoot and this year's draft looks very iffy. I'd rather try to sign or trade for someone else's All-Star if we're going to make a trade right now. If not, you might as well play this season out and make any necessary changes in the offseason.
Also "Blow It Up" is NOT A PLAN, it's just some jack*** thing to say that doesn't even mean the same thing to everyone that agrees with it. Pacergeek would do one trade, Vnzla would do the opposite, and so on. Almost no one would break it apart and rebuild it the same way, no one would agree on keeping Frank or dumping him, who is replacing him or even which player to draft.
Not to mention that if this team gets it turned around (and maybe they won't) I don't expect too many people agreeing with the blow it up to loudly start threads saying "I sure was stupid about that blowing it up thing".
If by "turning things around" you mean from been in the lottery to make it as the 8th or 7th seat then yeah you are right, hopefully next year they bring the same people back because they need another year together to figure things out.
I realize that threads like this tend to be annoying over a long season but I think right now people want to vent & don't really mean blow it all up. If we all were reasonable & patient it would be a very boring forum.
Yes it's to early for this type of actual thinking but it's not to early to be concerned.
Not only that, but the logical fallacy comes from people always recalling anecdotal version of what a great situation those teams were in, and then when it fails they just forget about that part and focus on the new "bad team". And then when someone does win that's also all they focus on.That's the norm unfortunately. Even the Knicks when they blew up their team by trading Ewing and the Bulls post MJ and Pippen had several runs at the top lottery picks and they had several of their picks blow up in their faces. A lot of the guys they drafted looked like studs and turned out to be straight up duds.
It's like seeing a Powerball winner and saying "see, it works, that's how you get rich" instead of sitting in the depressing parking lot of a gas station watching lottery loser after lottery loser walk out with dud tickets.
Cap space and Player to be Named Later never won a title. The Pacers cleared cap and got what they wanted - West, a FA that is paying off in spades. They turned one draft pick into a solid starting guard, had 3 great drafts to add Roy, Granger and Paul, doing much better than many teams drafting before them.
Just what is the team going to do with the new picks and cap space they get. Sign another variation of West, draft more Paul's and Danny's. Risk getting Cole Aldrich instead of Roy Hibbert?
Aren't you the same person that was talking s*** about Larry's draft? now you are saying that he has been drafting well? I want to know what you are drinking or smoking.........
"The Pacers cleared the cap and got what they wanted"? really? this was the master plan?
And don't worry to get off the high horse to answers my questions either.
Last edited by vnzla81; 11-20-2012 at 05:37 PM.
I think you can make some trades and still make the playoffs, the point is to build for the future not for the now, keeping this team intact is only going to get the Pacers as far as the first round, what is the point?
Keeping Seth's man crush in "BAMF" and Danny for as long as he want all is going to do is prolong the rebuilding process 3 or 4 years down the road, now if the goal is to be happy just to make it to the playoffs then lets just go ahead and celebrate and I'm sorry for expecting more out of the team.
Is this really what all the waiting around and clearing cap space was for? It was exactly what I was worried about and got flamed for a couple of years ago. Why stand pat and wait out contracts if all you plan on doing with the cap space is resigning your own players.
This team is stuck in the same no mans land that it was 5-6 years ago.
Not good enough to win...Not bad enough to get any real help...Not enough cap room to make any quick fixes.
But BAMF is what you try to get to complete a rebuild, which is what they just got done doing last season. There is no process to prolong because the rebuild is over. This is the era of tweeking OR the era in which Bird's rebuild turns out to be horrible - ie, when Larry walked away they had the 5 starters he assembled plus Lance, Tyler and Plumlee, his guys and the end of the 3 year plan.Keeping Seth's man crush in "BAMF" and Danny for as long as he want all is going to do is prolong the rebuilding process 3 or 4 years down the road,
Now just a couple of months later it's time to start the rebuild? So each rebuild gets a month to evaluate and then you tear it apart again and start a new 3 year plan? It's such bunk, it sounds like NBA2K thinking where you can make a million deals per hour and hit reset when you don't like it.
It's like moving Mark Jackson for Jalen Rose to fix the broken team that lost in round 1 the year before (when Reggie missed 4 games with a busted eye). That worked out great. By the end of the year Brown was fired and Jax was already brought back in a trade...and then they went on another 3 year tear that proved that they in fact did not need to be blown up in the least.
Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 11-20-2012 at 06:03 PM.
Granger at 17, Roy at 17 and Paul at 10 were all good picks. West was perhaps the best FA signed when you look at dollars vs production and intangibles. Hill was a smart trade when you didn't need Leonard due to Paul. Roy was coming off an AS season and half of PD said it was obvious that you bring him back and another 30% were saying "it's close but maybe you gotta do it despite the risk".
I mean what was the offseason going to be? Hibbert walks and they pay Kaman? After seeing Dallas, no thanks, and I had interest at the time. Overpay some lesser center, maybe make Mahinmi the cheap starter.
It's time to dance with who we brought, even if it's starting rough. It's just so incredibly knee-jerk, and this is coming from someone that finds the offense unwatchable at times.
Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 11-20-2012 at 06:13 PM.
I have no idea what you could get for David though. I'm not opposed to the idea later on in the season closer to the trade deadline but you know that the player you get in return is probably going to be 50-75% as good as David West. I guess draft picks would be more or less the best part of the deal if you're building for the future. It's hard to get excited about that.
I think he build a team of mediocre players.
Yes I was happy with the Hill trade, I don't like his contract but I can live with it, Hill, Roy and Paul George are the only players I would keep if I was the Pacers.Granger at 17, Roy at 17 and Paul at 10 were all good picks. West was perhaps the best FA signed when you look at dollars vs production and intangibles. Hill was a smart trade when you didn't need Leonard due to Paul. Roy was coming off an AS season and half of PD said it was obvious that you bring him back and another 30% were saying "it's close but maybe you gotta do it despite the risk".
Kaman was not the answer, as a backup? yes, as an starter? nope.I mean what was the offseason going to be? Hibbert walks and they pay Kaman? After seeing Dallas, no thanks, and I had interest at the time. Overpay some lesser center, maybe make Mahinmi the cheap starter.
Well there is no option but to watch this crappy team play, their options are limited because they decided to spend all their money in two of their players plus a bunch of scrubs with two of them getting long term contracts.It's time to dance with who we brought, even if it's starting rough. It's just so incredibly knee-jerk, and this is coming from someone that finds the offense unwatchable at times.
In reality the only assets they have are West and Paul George, and the more this team sucks the bigger chance there is for your man crush to sign somewhere else and then once again the Pacers lose a player for nothing, unless they make a deal with a team for a second round or something.
I think you can get some packages for West from contending teams, here are some EXAMPLES:
West+ Ian to OKC for Perkins+ Lamb+ pick.
West+Ian to Boston for Bass+ Sullinger+pick.
West+ Green to Brooklyn for Brooks+ Humpries.
West+ Green to Orlando for Big Baby+ Redick.
West+ Ian+ pick to GS for David Lee+ Jarret Jack
West to Houston for Morris+pick.
West+ Ian to SA for Splitter+ Blair
This are some examples by looking at other teams.
Being unable to close out a game in which you have a comfortable lead in the 4th Q = Pulling a Frank Vogel
I just find it amusing that people say we should blow it up after a small picture of games without our best player. Heck we lost several games right at the end that we should have won. If we can stay around .500 until Danny returns I think we will be ok.