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Thread: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

  1. #26
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    Sookie, I don't see how you could want DJones back after seeing that Dallas game. He was awful, and we got to see one of his classic moves where he goes overly physical for no good reason and then wonders what the call was about (when he literally grabbed and threw Tyler down). Green and Young have much better defensive footwork than Jones and are good at staying in front of people. Jones was living on rep and the chair pull. If DJones wasn't hitting 3s last year people would have been sick of him.


    Augustine without a doubt has been a disaster, but it's not like Collison didn't struggle against Hill. DC is a case of grass is greener. Yes he's better now than DJ is, but Mahinmi is also better than Lou and at the end of the year they can let Augustine walk.

    I mean the Pacers have one good win and it was against a team featuring Collison at point.


    Let's see DC put up nice numbers at the point with Roy playing like he is plus Danny out. We know what Hill can do with Roy and Danny because we saw it last year. It's not like this is Hill's first chance.


    And Collison still lets guys leave him on defense just about as badly as Augustine.

    DC was okay, but he was just a smaller, less physical and defensive version of Hill. DC has never been a great court vision passer and still isn't. And Dallas isn't exactly kicking everyone's butt. Their schedule has been pretty soft so far, at least for the wins.

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  3. #27
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    Roy hasn't been awful on defense. He's been a mix of strong and awful, averaging out to okay or maybe even slightly helpful. But on offense he's actually a problem. If Mahinmi could get things together you'd almost expect Roy to have to go to the bench.

    I like Roy and want him to succeed, but this start is exactly why people like me were in those debate threads saying that the signing of Roy was very risky. There were so many people that acted like letting Roy go would be a big mistake, but the fact is that it was always a tough call.

    And by the way, I fully expect Roy to come out of this at some point and just go on a 3 week tear where a bunch of people pop up saying "See, I told you". That's Roy, some great, some terrible, a little overpaid due to his only above average sum total on the year (by the end of this season I mean).

  4. #28
    I'm on a MAC! graphic-er's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    I think getting Danny Granger back will put this starting unit right back where they were last year. The squad did not change. Only they way defenses approach us. Once we get our major perimeter threat back, defenses will not get to choose who they want to cheat off of and double team at will.
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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  6. #29
    You Did It Joseph!!!! AesopRockOn's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    For those saying that we need to make a change with the backup point guard set up, we did in the second half of today's game.

  7. #30
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    What's wrong?

    Our three most highly touted players led the team in plus minus:

    West: -17
    Hibbert: -16
    PGeorge: -14

    Forget subs. Forget backup point guards. Forget the coach. These three guys need to stop sucking.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    What's wrong?

    Our three most highly touted players led the team in plus minus:

    West: -17
    Hibbert: -16
    PGeorge: -14

    Forget subs. Forget backup point guards. Forget the coach. These three guys need to stop sucking.
    George and West played 10 more minutes than Hibbert, and both most likely played every minute that Hibbert played. So most likely West and George were closer to net zero's, and it was Hibbert that was the problem. You also have Mahinmi who had a worse per minute +/- than Hibbert. Then again I could make a thousand different false arguments using +/-. That is the flaw of the stat, unless it is an outlier (i.e. relatively high or low compared to everyone else) it really is not a useful stat for an individual because it is too team based to give you an accurate summary of how an individual played.

  9. #32
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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    What's wrong?

    Our three most highly touted players led the team in plus minus:

    West: -17
    Hibbert: -16
    PGeorge: -14

    Forget subs. Forget backup point guards. Forget the coach. These three guys need to stop sucking.
    I wonder if since it was the starters fault for how badly the bench played last year, if it's now the benches fault for how bad the starters are playing.

  10. #33
    Member Ace E.Anderson's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by xIndyFan View Post
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    yeah, me too. More and more the $40M looks like a good investment.

    Now I'm not totally sure, but it appeared to me the Knicks were sagging into the paint big time. And the guys on the perimeter were just not hitting their shots. Now maybe I'm wrong, would not be surprised , but that's my take on things. The fastest way to fix things is for Paul George and Lance to hit shots. Plus Melo is just too big for Paul to guard.
    14, 4 and 6 are good numbers for a PG. And he's off to a slow shooting start. If he gets closer to his career averages, he could easily average 16, 4 and 6.

  11. #34
    Member Ace E.Anderson's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    For those saying we need a better "facilitator" within our offense, how can you facilitate when guys are missing wide open J's and layups? There is no magic formula for entering a "pass first PG" (even though only about 8 exist in the league anymore) when we cant hit any shots. Having a guy that only looks to pass to other players, WILL NOT help because our players aren't consistent enough shooters/scorers at this point.

    Also unless you have a Kobe or Lebron (and even if you do) in today's NBA your starting PG needs to your starting PG needs to be able to SCORE the ball whether its while having size and shooting ability, or extreme speed and quickness, they need to be able to be a major threat offensively. Yes you have the rare Rondo, CP3, Dwill. But aside from those all-star PG's-- most PG's today are scorers first and facilitators second.

    Though Hill is coming off a bad game, he has easily been one of the few bright spots this season. If we replaced him with this magical pass first PG who looked to run the offense, we would simply have a bigger, less crappy version of DJ--a guy trying to get everyone involved but can't because nobody can hit a damn shot.

    Our offensive problems are simple--we can't shoot/score consistently enough. It's not because of our PG. It's because we, as a team, shoot 38% pretty much every game. When we are shooting well (see Mavs game) we look good. When we don't then we look bad. It's pretty simple

  12. #35
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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    We're shooting poorly, and that's compounding the issue, but we're not getting great looks either. Yeah guys are missing some open jumpshots, but there haven't been enough open jumpshots either.

    A lot of guys on this team are in roles they don't belong in at this point because of Granger's absence as well. George shouldn't be handling the ball. He's a fine third option, but he can't create consistently with the ball in his hands. Neither can Green or Young, and Hill is far from ideal in that regard either.

    A Gerald Green fan who now finds himself rooting for the Suns.

  13. #36
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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    For those saying we need a better "facilitator" within our offense, how can you facilitate when guys are missing wide open J's and layups? There is no magic formula for entering a "pass first PG" (even though only about 8 exist in the league anymore) when we cant hit any shots. Having a guy that only looks to pass to other players, WILL NOT help because our players aren't consistent enough shooters/scorers at this point.

    Also unless you have a Kobe or Lebron (and even if you do) in today's NBA your starting PG needs to your starting PG needs to be able to SCORE the ball whether its while having size and shooting ability, or extreme speed and quickness, they need to be able to be a major threat offensively. Yes you have the rare Rondo, CP3, Dwill. But aside from those all-star PG's-- most PG's today are scorers first and facilitators second.

    Though Hill is coming off a bad game, he has easily been one of the few bright spots this season. If we replaced him with this magical pass first PG who looked to run the offense, we would simply have a bigger, less crappy version of DJ--a guy trying to get everyone involved but can't because nobody can hit a damn shot.

    Our offensive problems are simple--we can't shoot/score consistently enough. It's not because of our PG. It's because we, as a team, shoot 38% pretty much every game. When we are shooting well (see Mavs game) we look good. When we don't then we look bad. It's pretty simple
    There are multiple problems right now.

    First, no one is hitting shots.

    Even if they were, we're not getting that many good looks. In my opinion, most of the good looks take place when Lance makes things happen. But, even when he does, guys aren't making the shot. Vogel needs to keep putting Lance in the mix to get guys good shots, and then they need to start hitting them.

    (Lance did not have a good game yesterday, granted. New York jitters, maybe?)
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  14. #37
    Member MikeDC's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    What's wrong:
    1. Mediocre PG play. Cause: George Hill isn't really a PG and DJ Augustin has played terrible. Solution: Either Augustin gets better or they figure out a trade.
    2. Poor SG play. Cause: Their best SG is busy playing PG. Solution: Same as problem 1. With a better PG, you move Hill back to SG.
    3. Poor SF play. Cause: Their best SF just found out he has a possibly degenerative knee condition. Solution: None really. Wait 3 months, get by with PG and hope Danny is fixed when he gets back.
    4. Mediocre PF play. Cause: West is the last man standing, so he's getting that much more focus from defenses, and he's not good enough to carry a team on his back.
    5. Terrible C play. Cause: Roy Hibbert's head mostly, with supporting issues cause by poor PG play and lack of shooting. Solution: Get Hibbert's head into the game. To some extent, solving problem 1 might help a bit too.

    So basically, the way I see it, the Pacers have one problem they can potentially solve on their own. If they could land a better PG, they could shift Hill to the 2 and be in much better shape.

    Unfortunately, I don't see how the Pacers can fix Hibbert's head or Danny's knee. They pretty much just have to hope they get better. But if those three things happen (better PG, Roy getting his **** together, Granger getting healthy) I would still feel pretty good about a new PG, Hill, Granger, West, Hibbert team with Paul, Lance, Young, Green, Tyler and Mahinmi as the backups. I'd probably give up any of those backups except Paul George to get a good PG option, but I think my whole argument falls apart when I consider that there aren't many good PG options available that I can think of trading for. So...

  15. #38

    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    . . . Oh, and they happen to be a damn elite defensive squad and look to be getting better at that end. So while the offense is one of the most disgusting things this side of a JOB 3pt chuckfest, the defense is something they can hang their hat on.
    This seems to be the thing that keeps getting overlooked. And the surest indication that things are not as bad as it appears. This reminds me so much of the early 2000's Detroit Pistons. Could defend like crazy, but just couldn't score. Scoring is much easier to find that defense.

  16. #39

    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeDC View Post
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    but I think my whole argument falls apart when I consider that there aren't many good PG options available that I can think of trading for. So...

    JARRETT JACK.

    9.2/3.2/4.2... 51% FG... 45% 3pt... 88% FT

    This is as a reserve b/u PG.

  17. #40
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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    Most everyone wants to jump on Hibbert. And, true some small part of it is his issue. He's missing shots, that can't be denied. But he is also not getting the ball or not getting it at the right time.

    The offense is not running well. Hill may be having good individual games, but he is not running the offense. Collison was the PG on this team. And while I see why they traded him for a reliable backup big man, I wish they hadn't.

    What's wrong with the team? The offense is not running the way it did last year. The last two games have been better. Even the loss to NYK they showed some improvement. They have the possibility of a barely over .500 team without Granger if they get it together.

    Personally, I think West is trade-able if things don't turn around.

  18. #41
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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    JARRETT JACK.

    9.2/3.2/4.2... 51% FG... 45% 3pt... 88% FT

    This is as a reserve b/u PG.
    Yeah... he's about a zillion times better than DJ from what I can tell. I'd take him back and be thankful for it at this point.

  19. #42

    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    i don't think dj augustine has shown anything this year to suggest he belongs in the nba let alone starting. he really has been a disaster like seth said.
    he has been the biggest disappointment of all the new pickups this year (at least in my book)

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  21. #43
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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    I think it may be missed that we are defending at an even higher level than last year. Despite the problems we had fighting through screens against the Knicks, no one this year has been stymied by screens the way DC was.

    Was the possible loss in offense worth the trade-off? I don't know, but since defense is still being criticized when it is #1 in the league I think offense is sorely underrated by more than just the front office.
    BillS

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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    The team has shot itself in the foot multiple times this season. I wouldn't say they suck. They're much better than what they've done so far. The motivation and desire simply isn't there.

    Of course no Danny is a major detriment, but honestly, he's not LeBron. This team would pride itself on being a team, but too many guys look like they're trying to do way too much to fill in his "leader" spot.

    No one is moving around offensively and it's leading to terrible shots.

    There's no reason for this horrible start.

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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I think it may be missed that we are defending at an even higher level than last year. Despite the problems we had fighting through screens against the Knicks, no one this year has been stymied by screens the way DC was.

    Was the possible loss in offense worth the trade-off? I don't know, but since defense is still being criticized when it is #1 in the league I think offense is sorely underrated by more than just the front office.
    Losing DC is not why 3/4ths of last years starters are shooting at least 5% worse than last season, and the other 1/4th is shooting worse also.

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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    IMHO we are getting good (not great) shots and missing them. If we start hitting jumpers the inside will open up for West and Hibbert.

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  27. #47

    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    No ball or player movement. Standing behind the arch to shoot a 3 just ain't cutt'n it. Shooting 20 3 ptrs with little ball or player movement isn't the way to win even with good "D". That should be pretty obvious by now to the FO, the coach, and the players.

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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    This is what is wrong...


  29. #49
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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by WhoLovesYaBaby? View Post
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    Most everyone wants to jump on Hibbert. And, true some small part of it is his issue. He's missing shots, that can't be denied. But he is also not getting the ball or not getting it at the right time.
    That doesn't explain why Roy is playing so badly, when those criticisms were present last season.

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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    That doesn't explain why Roy is playing so badly, when those criticisms were present last season.
    And I really don't get why people keep going to the "Roy isn't getting the ball where he needs it" argument.

    Against Milwaukee Larry Sanders (!) was able to keep Roy at about 20'. The whole time he was in. 20'. Then, when Roy would get the ball, he'd either turn it over by trying some complex dribble drive, or take a wild running hook shot.

    It's going to be hard for the team to work on getting your 7' center the ball when he's not getting good position, or doing positive things with the ball once he gets it.

    I'd say:

    #1 - Roy needs to work on getting early position.

    #2 - Roy needs to work on protecting his position.

    #3 - The guards need to ensure that Roy gets the ball as soon as he has that position.

    #4 - Roy needs to work on decision making from the post. When to force a shot/pass/work the defender. It seems he rarely makes the "right" decision when he gets the ball down low, often settling for a heavily contested shot, or holding the ball for 7+ seconds and passing with 4 on the shot clock.

    Thing is, when it rains it pours. Once Roy gets it figured out, this whole team will look much, much better. I truly believe he will be the catalyst for change with this team.

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