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Thread: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

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    Default What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    For one, I'm a diehard pacer fan. With that said, I think the two main problems is George Hill and Roy Hibbert. For one, I was NEVER impressed with George Hill as a point guard last year. Hes a wonderful combo guard but not a legit starting point guard. The main problem now is, we over paid for him, and now we are stuck with him.

    Next is Roy Hibbert, he is 7'2 and he can't dominated. I want to see him get the ball deep and just simply dunk over his man. He never does this, he is too weak. Is Hibbert a bad player? No hes just overpaid for what little he does. He looks good against bad players, but when he goes up against a duncan, chandler, or noah he cant do anything. He is too soft and is too easily pushed off.

    They should have let George Hill walk, he wanted too much money. They couldnt do that because they wasted a 1st round pick on him, so they overpay for a combo guard. Was Collison the answer? Probably not but hes a better point guard.

    I think their only chance right now is let DJA start, and move hill to 2, and PG to the 3, until granger is back. Turn up the tempo a bit and get some fast breaks going between dja, hill, and george. Then in the half court sets, feed the ball to west/hibbert and when they double team find the freaking open guy.

    Once granger is back, they are better off starting DJA instead of hill, HE IS NOT A LEGIT POINT GUARD. I have yet to witness him run the fast break and get an assist. Hell I'd rather witness lance starting than Hill

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    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    The problem is our offense...good, consistent shooting specifically. When you lose Granger and replace Collison, Barbosa and DJones...you lose a lot of shooting ability and need to make that up. The problem is, the Pacers have not replaced it and we are paying for it in spades.

    DJ Augustin is killing us. He's not only a poor defender he's not producing on offense. He averaged double figures and seemed like a good player. But his performance has been lacking and he is nothing close to the offensive threat Collison was. I am very, very unimpressed by Augustin.

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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    The problem is our offense...good, consistent shooting specifically. When you lose Granger and replace Collison, Barbosa and DJones...you lose a lot of shooting ability and need to make that up. The problem is, the Pacers have not replaced it and we are paying for it in spades.

    DJ Augustin is killing us. He's not only a poor defender he's not producing on offense. He averaged double figures and seemed like a good player. But his performance has been lacking and he is nothing close to the offensive threat Collison was. I am very, very unimpressed by Augustin.
    I would like to see B Hansbrough given a shot.
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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by owl View Post
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    I would like to see B Hansbrough given a shot.
    Laughable.

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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Miller_time04 View Post
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    Laughable.
    DJ's play has been laughable. I'm all for experimenting with lineups, Ben playing over DJ is something I'd want to see way before we see DJ promoted to the starting lineup.

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Goyle View Post
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    DJ's play has been laughable. I'm all for experimenting with lineups, Ben playing over DJ is something I'd want to see way before we see DJ promoted to the starting lineup.
    I thought the point was Ben over Hill, which is laughable. Ben vs DJ, at least the way DJ is playing and shooting, that's in the park of reasonable. However as much as I like Ben's game, I still think it's a bit of an overreach to think of him as a legit 15 mpg 2nd string PG. He's a gamer but he's not loaded with NBA level talent. Maybe if he had a dead-eye outside shot.



    The primary problem is 28m getting the team some solid inside defense and nothing else. Roy has just got to get out of his funk, esp with Danny out. Paul was obviously not ready, which isn't really a surprise.

    However for all the "we changed the offense one morning before a game" talk, that's the item that's laughable. I mean I'm all for Vogel trying to fix things, but it's is NOT REALISTIC to think the team will just instantly fix everything before a game.

    The solutions will take weeks. The talent is there but the connections have them aimed squarely at a lottery pick.

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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Miller_time04 View Post
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    Laughable.
    Totally, because all the other point guards on the roster have been on a tear.
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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by owl View Post
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    I would like to see B Hansbrough shot.
    Isn't that being a little harsh ??

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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    The problem is our offense...good, consistent shooting specifically. When you lose Granger and replace Collison, Barbosa and DJones...you lose a lot of shooting ability and need to make that up. The problem is, the Pacers have not replaced it and we are paying for it in spades.

    DJ Augustin is killing us. He's not only a poor defender he's not producing on offense. He averaged double figures and seemed like a good player. But his performance has been lacking and he is nothing close to the offensive threat Collison was. I am very, very unimpressed by Augustin.
    Why do you think Charlotte allowed him to leave. I saw where fans said he was not what the stats said he was and we would be sorry we added him....

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    I also laugh at the blame on the bench. Young was the big goat, then comes in and shows that he's part of the solution. His defensive awareness has been a highlight the last 2 games. He covers up a lot of mistakes by others simply on awareness.

    Mahinmi wasn't great today, but he's already looking better than Lou and appears to have more room to grow. His thing is confidence and awareness because he's big, fast and strong.

    Green hasn't been the big scorer the last few games but his athletic ability has done wonders on defense and rebounds. He stops things that would otherwise be easy scores with plays that go unnoticed.



    The issue isn't them because West, Roy, Hill and Hibbert are struggling just as much. Hill's getting by on guts and an ability to drive in transition. The problem is when/where they are getting each other the ball.



    Oh, and they happen to be a damn elite defensive squad and look to be getting better at that end. So while the offense is one of the most disgusting things this side of a JOB 3pt chuckfest, the defense is something they can hang their hat on.

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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    I also laugh at the blame on the bench. Young was the big goat, then comes in and shows that he's part of the solution. His defensive awareness has been a highlight the last 2 games. He covers up a lot of mistakes by others simply on awareness.

    Mahinmi wasn't great today, but he's already looking better than Lou and appears to have more room to grow. His thing is confidence and awareness because he's big, fast and strong.

    Green hasn't been the big scorer the last few games but his athletic ability has done wonders on defense and rebounds. He stops things that would otherwise be easy scores with plays that go unnoticed.



    The issue isn't them because West, Roy, Hill and Hibbert are struggling just as much. Hill's getting by on guts and an ability to drive in transition. The problem is when/where they are getting each other the ball.



    Oh, and they happen to be a damn elite defensive squad and look to be getting better at that end. So while the offense is one of the most disgusting things this side of a JOB 3pt chuckfest, the defense is something they can hang their hat on.
    One of the bench benches in the NBA hands down.

  19. #12

    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    We will be allright once we get that creating SG, Barbosa type of player only this time starter material.

    And a bit more freedom for some of our players wouldn't hurt either. Augustin in particular.

  20. #13

    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    I also laugh at the blame on the bench. Young was the big goat, then comes in and shows that he's part of the solution. His defensive awareness has been a highlight the last 2 games. He covers up a lot of mistakes by others simply on awareness.

    Mahinmi wasn't great today, but he's already looking better than Lou and appears to have more room to grow. His thing is confidence and awareness because he's big, fast and strong.

    Green hasn't been the big scorer the last few games but his athletic ability has done wonders on defense and rebounds. He stops things that would otherwise be easy scores with plays that go unnoticed.



    The issue isn't them because West, Roy, Hill and Hibbert are struggling just as much. Hill's getting by on guts and an ability to drive in transition. The problem is when/where they are getting each other the ball.



    Oh, and they happen to be a damn elite defensive squad and look to be getting better at that end. So while the offense is one of the most disgusting things this side of a JOB 3pt chuckfest, the defense is something they can hang their hat on.
    Sorry, not buying it. DJ is a downgrade from DC and AJ. Green is a downgrade from Barbosa (and Certainly from Hill when we played him at the backup 2). Although I like Young (a lot, actually), I'd rather have Dahntay. And Lou and Ian are pretty much a wash. If Hans and Lance hadn't improved it would be scary. Perhaps part of it is chemistry hasn't been developed. But that's only part.

    It's not all their fault. Granger isn't playing, Hibbert is essentially not playing. PG hasn't taken over as the star. West is still West. And Hill is Hill playing out of position. Our collective team IQ isn't too high. The Pacers Struggle to pass, shoot, and box out.

    Now, Indiana usually gets beat by New York anyway. And all teams go through spurts of crap. and I'll be honest and say that I think Danny would fix a lot of the problems. (Particularly the mental side of what's going on.) Because not only is his shooting and toughness desperately needed because this team can't shoot and isn't mentally tough, but that will take the focus of defense off of Roy and PG. Which can only help them.

    I don't know what to do with this team. Speeding up the game sounds like a good idea, considering the team's handicaps. But when you can't pass and you can't rebound, and your Bigs are slow and slower..that's not exactly a primary option. Anything else and execution is going to be an issue..with no real point guard..poor passing/movement/ball movement. Vogel's simple inside outside offense is probably the best approach honestly, we just have to be able to shoot in order to fix it.

    But yes..at least they can play defense.

  21. #14

    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    No ball or player movement. Standing behind the arch to shoot a 3 just ain't cutt'n it. Shooting 20 3 ptrs with little ball or player movement isn't the way to win even with good "D". That should be pretty obvious by now to the FO, the coach, and the players.

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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    . . . Oh, and they happen to be a damn elite defensive squad and look to be getting better at that end. So while the offense is one of the most disgusting things this side of a JOB 3pt chuckfest, the defense is something they can hang their hat on.
    This seems to be the thing that keeps getting overlooked. And the surest indication that things are not as bad as it appears. This reminds me so much of the early 2000's Detroit Pistons. Could defend like crazy, but just couldn't score. Scoring is much easier to find that defense.

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    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    Why do you think Charlotte allowed him to leave. I saw where fans said he was not what the stats said he was and we would be sorry we added him....
    I've seen him play and I thought he would be better. I didn't expect him to be as good as George Hill, but I didn't realize he wasn't better than AJ Price. Augustin makes TJ Ford look like a superstar.

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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    Hill isn't a good point guard and I thought we overpaid him big time but he isn't too bad this season. It's Hibbert who really disappoints me, though then again we knew what we were getting when we gave him that contract
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    Bobcat fans telling us to cheer up = epic fail season
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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by yoadknux View Post
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    Hill isn't a good point guard and I thought we overpaid him big time but he isn't too bad this season. It's Hibbert who really disappoints me, though then again we knew what we were getting when we gave him that contract
    Its funny, no one was saying this last year when he took the starting job over collison
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  28. #19

    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    Hill would be good in a triangle type offense. I haven't been impressed with his pick and roll ability tbh. We need a two guard who can handle the ball and make plays for teammates (i'm not sure lance is that guy yet)

    Hibbert is being paid like he's a number 1 guy, but he's really 4th or 5th guy on a contender. he's just not efficient enough

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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    Its funny, no one was saying this last year when he took the starting job over collison
    I was.

    I've always maintained that he's not a PG.

    This is coming from a person who really likes Hill for what he is too.

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    Member LoneGranger33's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    I was.

    I've always maintained that he's not a PG.

    This is coming from a person who really likes Hill for what he is too.
    I'll second this. I was still beating the drum for Collison during the last ten games of last season - I think he got a raw deal, and I still think George Hill received more credit than he deserved for those wins (all against sub-.500 teams, if I recall correctly). I think we overpaid him for sure.

    All that said, I can't place much blame on him for this 4-7 start. Our offense is all-around ******. My concern is that when/if we fix it, it will require a better facilitator than Hill to succeed.

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    Roy hasn't been awful on defense. He's been a mix of strong and awful, averaging out to okay or maybe even slightly helpful. But on offense he's actually a problem. If Mahinmi could get things together you'd almost expect Roy to have to go to the bench.

    I like Roy and want him to succeed, but this start is exactly why people like me were in those debate threads saying that the signing of Roy was very risky. There were so many people that acted like letting Roy go would be a big mistake, but the fact is that it was always a tough call.

    And by the way, I fully expect Roy to come out of this at some point and just go on a 3 week tear where a bunch of people pop up saying "See, I told you". That's Roy, some great, some terrible, a little overpaid due to his only above average sum total on the year (by the end of this season I mean).

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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    For those saying we need a better "facilitator" within our offense, how can you facilitate when guys are missing wide open J's and layups? There is no magic formula for entering a "pass first PG" (even though only about 8 exist in the league anymore) when we cant hit any shots. Having a guy that only looks to pass to other players, WILL NOT help because our players aren't consistent enough shooters/scorers at this point.

    Also unless you have a Kobe or Lebron (and even if you do) in today's NBA your starting PG needs to your starting PG needs to be able to SCORE the ball whether its while having size and shooting ability, or extreme speed and quickness, they need to be able to be a major threat offensively. Yes you have the rare Rondo, CP3, Dwill. But aside from those all-star PG's-- most PG's today are scorers first and facilitators second.

    Though Hill is coming off a bad game, he has easily been one of the few bright spots this season. If we replaced him with this magical pass first PG who looked to run the offense, we would simply have a bigger, less crappy version of DJ--a guy trying to get everyone involved but can't because nobody can hit a damn shot.

    Our offensive problems are simple--we can't shoot/score consistently enough. It's not because of our PG. It's because we, as a team, shoot 38% pretty much every game. When we are shooting well (see Mavs game) we look good. When we don't then we look bad. It's pretty simple

  35. #24
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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    For those saying we need a better "facilitator" within our offense, how can you facilitate when guys are missing wide open J's and layups? There is no magic formula for entering a "pass first PG" (even though only about 8 exist in the league anymore) when we cant hit any shots. Having a guy that only looks to pass to other players, WILL NOT help because our players aren't consistent enough shooters/scorers at this point.

    Also unless you have a Kobe or Lebron (and even if you do) in today's NBA your starting PG needs to your starting PG needs to be able to SCORE the ball whether its while having size and shooting ability, or extreme speed and quickness, they need to be able to be a major threat offensively. Yes you have the rare Rondo, CP3, Dwill. But aside from those all-star PG's-- most PG's today are scorers first and facilitators second.

    Though Hill is coming off a bad game, he has easily been one of the few bright spots this season. If we replaced him with this magical pass first PG who looked to run the offense, we would simply have a bigger, less crappy version of DJ--a guy trying to get everyone involved but can't because nobody can hit a damn shot.

    Our offensive problems are simple--we can't shoot/score consistently enough. It's not because of our PG. It's because we, as a team, shoot 38% pretty much every game. When we are shooting well (see Mavs game) we look good. When we don't then we look bad. It's pretty simple
    There are multiple problems right now.

    First, no one is hitting shots.

    Even if they were, we're not getting that many good looks. In my opinion, most of the good looks take place when Lance makes things happen. But, even when he does, guys aren't making the shot. Vogel needs to keep putting Lance in the mix to get guys good shots, and then they need to start hitting them.

    (Lance did not have a good game yesterday, granted. New York jitters, maybe?)
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: What is wrong? I'll tell you what is wrong

    George Hill is one of the few players I've been happy with this year.
    DG for 3

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