Not much chance at Gotham City on Sunday, especially with the nix defeat at Memphis. I was glad to see Rick Carlisle's #CHUCKSTRONG haircut last night. Glad he's on board with that.
Not much chance at Gotham City on Sunday, especially with the nix defeat at Memphis. I was glad to see Rick Carlisle's #CHUCKSTRONG haircut last night. Glad he's on board with that.
ONLY 8 TO's! That half of the normal TO's committed.
23 asts... that shows ball and player movement.
19-31 FT shooting is just feeable, terrible, atrocious! This has to improve along with getting to the line more often as a team.
DWest 5/9 for 55% shooting instead of the 3 previous games of 25% shooting.
Now, I want to address the bench. For 9 games I've read how this bench sux and how some miss last years bench. Well, this bench doesn't sux, and overall is better than last years bench. Too many have selective memories regarding last years bench.
Ian is better than Lou. Lou couldn't hit a jump shot if his life depended on it. Lou was a TERRIBLE FT shooter. Ian has a mid-range jumper and can hit FA. Ian isn't the reb'r I'd like... yet, but he'll get more comfortable in the game allowing better reb'ing.
Sam Young is better at "D" than Dahntay was. Just remember it took Dahntay TWO years as a Pacer to have the season he had last year where his 3 pt and FT shooting improved. If Sam can play good "D" and give 5-7 PPG, he's replaced Dahntay w/o a problem.
Gerald Green is younger and more athletic than Barbosa. He can score as much per game as Barbosa did, and he comes at half the price Barbosa was.
Augustin unfortunately isn't better than DC, but then I wasn't impressed with DC's game last night either. The good thing is DJ Augustin is an expiring contract. I'm surprised DJ isn't playing good ball, as I've been a DJ fan, to get a new contract. Hopefully, he'll come out of his funk, but if not he won't be hard to replace next year.
As many others have said, I just hope the play from last nights game continues. I really enjoyed watching the game last night. Due to past games play, I was expecting a loss last night, but got to watch a different team bring a good and much needed win.
Now, let me preface my statement about the bench being better. It could have even been more improved than it is if the FO had spent their money more wisely. They just flat dropped the ball.... period!
Lance is fitting better than I thought he would. This is the first time this year that this team even remotely resembled last years team. Let's hope the new offensive style Frank implemented stickd around and makr this team more competetive and watchable.
The main difference between last night and the past few games was that we hit more open shots and turned the ball over a lot less. We have an elite defense right now, so if we can hit more open shots than not, and turn the ball over less, then we have the potential to be in most games.
I still think that we could make a trade. Our young players (Lance, George, Paul, Green, DJ, Tyler) have all shown they play a lot better within an up tempo type of game. If we can add a real 3pt shooter and/or a more athletic big, I think we could be much improved for the long run. If not a trade, then maybe sign a legit 3pt shooter.
Right now, I'm happy for Young though.
Ps.. For everyone that wanted DC at the point instead of Hill, last nights game should put that to rest. For most of the season Hill has been our best player at the PG position. He may not be what most PD'ers want, but he's already good and keeps getting better at playing the position.
Convenient timing to put this out here when the audience is going to be more receptive. I agree with most of what you wrote, but not about Sam Young and Gerald Green. I have to disagree that Sam Young is better defensively OR offensively than Jones. They are both better at guarding SGs than SFs, but Young gets pushed around against anybody physical. And you used offensive stats to back up his defense? Regardless, I don't feel it was a full correct assessment Jones also shot 77% FT his first 2 seasons with us, then "jumped" all the way up to 83%. Considering he only played 15ish minutes a game, that's about a 5-10 game hot streak from the line. So he was never a bad shooter, but he didn't really improve. His 3 point shooting improved for sure. But it improved to a point where he is a far better 3 pt. shooter than Sam Young, and he was already vastly improved by his second season with us.
Green brings a different kind of scoring as Barbosa, and I don't think you can say at this point if he is as good as Barbosa. Past the first 10 or so games with us, I was already over Barbosa. But judging from Green's play in this season, I don't think you can say he's a better offensive player. They score in different ways. Green's also not an experienced player. A lot of the plays Barbosa made for us were actually sneaky defensive plays where he realized what was happening and put himself in a position to create a TO.
One point I haven't seen mentioned (forgive me if I missed it) is that Carlisle did not have the Mav's defense collapse on the paint the way practically every other defense has done all year. That could be because we caught them off guard with the ball and player movement, making it harder to go away from a man-to-man defense without risking defensive 3 second violations. However, it will be very interesting to see if this holds up against a defense determined to establish the zone by blocking travel paths.
That said - ball movement and passing? That's what brung us, please stick with it.
"Every time I pitched it was like throwing gasoline on a fire. Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw!"
- Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh
Before last night, we just kept passing around the horn until finally, maybe, we posted up a big. Or we threw up a prayer from the perimeter.
“People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown
It was odd that for the first time we didn't see hard low post traps, doubles or any zone that I noticed. Rick has always believed in one on one defense and they stuck to that most of the night it seemed.
FIRST 6 MINUTES OF OFFENSIVE SETS
BTW, I also promised Bill that I'd go through the tape to talk about the fact that for the most part the offense was NOT FIXED and was living more on defensive created transitions than quality half-court. That will take awhile. But in the meantime here is the one thing I did bring up to him that got this discussion going, the EARLY possessions and how they showed the issues still there.
1) Modest FT line cross lane pick by Roy to get West the high arc feed to the high post. West took the pass and dribble drove to the rim. Reason it worked - KAMAN SUCKS ON DEFENSE. He not only doesn't switch, he literally comes into the lane UNDER Roy picking Brand, almost helping to slow down Brand. He literally doesn't look at West as he's getting the pass even though it was obvious as hell.
Pacers pick/spacing = B, Mavs defense = D
2) Steal at the FT line gives Paul a transition. Mayo has position on him and is able to square up and force him to cross the lane with Collison and Brand closing quickly. Rather than turn to set up he forces the awkward reverse attempt and comes up empty. There are 4 Mavs there and no other Pacers which means that there will be no shot at any rebound. He tried to be a hero.
Pacers "offense" = F or No Grade
3) Loose ball picked up in lane (Lance slapped a pass away from Kaman=nice). Lance gets ball from Hill on floor and forces the dribble drive full court against all 5 Mavs ahead of him. He stops on the wing as Roy is posting, 3 Mavs between Lance and the rim, Lance drives and hops into a falling, awkward jumper and no shot at the rebound again.
Pacers offense = F
4) Collison bad miss allows Pacers to get transition mismatch of Collison on Paul. Paul and West work the post feed switch, feed to West who dribbles out and passes to Paul who has run by and put Collison in the low post. Paul dribbles off his own foot and wastes a 7-8 inch advantage at the rim
Pacers offense = B+ in concept, F in execution by Paul.
**** there's no good reason to not be at least 6-0 at this point and possibly drawing 1-2 fouls, the defense has been great ****
5) Lance defends Marion well, missed turn jumper. Modest transition with George pushing it up. Full HC set now. Roy posts Kaman, Paul feeds and does the STANDARD BASELINE RUN THROUGH. The one that we've seen the ball stolen on in several of the last few games. Mayo completely lets Paul get 3 feet ahead of him and oddly is not challenging Roy either, just lagging behind. Roy has easy pass to Paul for simple dunk (not oop or special athletic move needed).
Pacers offense = C for predictability (if I ranted about this specific play being their primary play in the "Scouts" thread, then it's freaking predictable), Mavs defense = D for effort and awareness...watch some tape already
BTW, at the game when I saw this live I said "I can't believe they fell for that". It hasn't worked for about 5 games now.
6) Kaman takes a long hurried jumper? (ugh, I was wrong to want him here). They try to post Roy, Hill can't feed from the corner, almost holds it too long, back to Lance at the right arc, West and Roy do a non-contact run-by and Roy comes out to set the high PnPop with Paul who got the SLOW rotation from Lance. Team is moving through mud at this point and the play is dying with 7 seconds on the clock. Roy comes to the FT line and gets the return pass, Marion shows help from Lance, Marion bites light pass fake from Roy to Lance. Meanwhile Kaman slowly lumbers back toward Roy with no effort to recover which leaves Roy with the full lane. He drives and misses dunk but draws foul (misses both)
Pacers offense = C, Mavs defense = D (Kaman effort, Marion bit fake too hard)
7) Kaman misses shot at rim (more ugh), West pushes outlet to Hill who make briliant outlet up to Lance on the right wing. Lance immediately goes into a drive, jumps in the air in the lane ala Fred Jones but at the last second finds Paul out on the left arc for the open 3.
Pacers offense = B+ (good due to aggressive transition, not indicative of any half court structure), Mavs defense = N/A, burned by transition and never got set
TIMEOUT, Dallas offense getting crushed
8) Pacers good defense but Mavs stick with it and get Mayo a 3. Pacers come up for the first time with a set Mavs defense. Pacers PUSH IT UP with Hill's dribble and then another long pass up to Lance, exactly the same as #7. Lance drives to baseline where Marion turns him into a trap by Brand. But Brand leaving to help leaves West open at the FT arc. Kaman tries to close out from the rim and West drives at him, sets him up for a spin to the lane but Brand comes from Lance right to West and West is forced into a contested off-balance shot at the charge circle.
Pacers offense = C, good tempo to get an advantage, not really sure what to do after pass to West
9) Marion defended fairly well and misses turn jumper again. Transition is slower, partly due to Paul bringing it up. He drives lane and is turned away, dumps to West and then drags his man right into West's space (Marion even puts a hand up on West's upfake as he goes by). West is a little stuck, dumps to Lance on the wing. West picks for Lance to go cross-court to the lane, Brand is awful in moving off West to deny Lance and lets him go right to the rim for a layup.
Pacers offense = C, mostly bad, saved by Lance, Mavs defense = C, Brand should have been able to turn Lance away
10) Kaman takes another long jumper with no offense (just epic ugh). Modest transition and Roy does a good job of getting into Kaman post with Paul feeding. Paul does the standard baseline run-through and Mayo slaps at Roy as he goes by.
10b) High PnPop with Hill/Hibbert. Roy gets ball outside the right elbow. Hill then awkwardly brings Collison back to Roy trying to get the ball back maybe, not sure what the spacing goal is, but Collison is allowed to get near Roy and tips the ball out of his hands. Roy picks it up and just decides to dribble drive. He misses the PG style lane runner, which to his credit would be a decent shot. But this is in no way a quality offensive play designed to make that happen.
Pacers offense = D, confused, sluggish and still in each other's space
11) Kaman lefty hook, Pacers 2nd set from a made basket coming. This is a full play. West top arc over to Paul on left arc, Hill runs through and shows a FAKE low post of DC. Then he cuts back to set the real pick for Roy. Meanwhile Lance comes over the West screen to get the pass back at the top arc. Roy doesn't really clear from Kaman and to be honest it doesn't seem like Lance is even looking for that or the rotation back to Paul to feed Roy. Instead he shows upfake and then dribbles back over the West high PnPop. Back to West who then sets the shot screen and pass for Lance who takes a long jumper just inside the arc for the miss
Pacers offense = B-, good motion and picks, but ultimately this play does not generate a good look, Mavs defense = C, nothing special
12) Vince posts Lance, upfake, spin, layup. Lance stayed on the ground, looks like Vince got a little elbow hook for space. Another set out of a make. First they go to Paul at the left arc who waits for something to unfold until the 18s mark. No play and they instead setup with West top arc. Lance and Hill pick each other on right wing to get Hill free to take pass at left arc while Lance picks Kaman. Vince is able to hold up Roy which lets Kaman literally get to the low post before Roy. 12s on clock and Hill has to punt with a pass to Lance at the top arc. High PnPop with West at top of key, pass to West who has Vince switched to him. Backs down Vince but Brand easily doubles over to him from Lance who is sitting on the left arc waiting for the 3 kick out. FOUL
Pacers offense = B-, clunky but finally got a good situation out of it
12b) In bounds passer is Paul, Hill sets a backdoor pick for him which clears him, meanwhile pass to West rotates to Roy on right arc. He has height to easily feed Paul. Paul misses layup but Vince clearly fouls him by hipchecking him in the air, not to mention the Vince foul of running over Hill to "clear" the pick. The miss results in a Dallas transition and the game is tied at 9.
Pacers offense = A, Mavs defense = C for fouling without the call
That's the first 6 minutes. The score is 9 to 9 and based on the Pacers defense and opportunities it should have been closer to 18-9 instead. They've had one really sharp play for 2 points, a couple of other modestly good sets, and almost nothing productive from the HC. The Pacers are clearly in a "we must push it up at an insane pace" mode due to the terrible HC game. The best offensive sets came out of timeouts, so in that way it supports Vogel and the staff. The issue appears to be more about the regular go-to playbook, and that wasn't solved last night.
Vogel has reacted to the problems by going with tempo to scrap together a few more points, maybe 8-12 you can get from that. And if the defense remains elite then that can work. They also are starting to run sets to get LANCE THE THREE ATTEMPT. Hill is obviously now trying to push the dribble and possibly go right into a lane drive on transition. But none of this adds up to "fixed". Last night Dallas showed a terrible defense and not much offense against a good Pacers defense.
This will not work against better teams. Roy needs to improve on getting/holding the low post, and the HC sets need to have more quickness and crispness. They still show very slow decision making going on and that makes them easy to recover against and defend. No one seems to know what's coming next.
Please note that most of my "above C" grades were due to effort or pushing the ball up. There were only a couple of moments of truly good offensive flow.
Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 11-17-2012 at 01:26 PM.
Saw Mark Cuban at Kilroy's after the game! My buddy who's a Mav's fan yelled "Go Mavs!" but it looked like Mark thought he was being sarcastic..
I've stated BEFORE this bench is better than last years bench, so I didn't conveniently wait for a more receptive audience to say it.
You are right that Barbosa and Green are different players and scorers. I said I felt Green would score as much as Barbosa did. Green will replace Barbosa's points. If you'll recall, I wasn't happy with Barbosa having 1 good game out of 3 or 4 last year, and voiced my displeasure about it numerous times. I never was enthralled with Barbosa from the get go, and much less with his disappearing act in the playoffs.
To be quite honest, Barbosa is a player who should be able to help the Celtics, and I'd much rather him be there than here.
This whole view of which bench is better should make for a good discussion after the season is over. IMO, this bench will be the overall better bench without a doubt.
To me the only thing Barbosa has on Green is experience.
For the sake of fairness, I forgot that my favorite play of the night came right after where I stopped and the team deserves credit for it.
They in-bounds sideline right and will get Lance the ball who dribbles it to the top of the arc. The play then is Hill is on the right wing (in-bounded) with Roy at the right lane. Paul is left wing with West at left lane. MIRROR picks with the guards going by the bigs and then Paul sets a staggered pick in the lane (with West already there) that prevents Collison from coming over the top of West on the curl by Hill. So now Hill curls West on the baseline and catches the pass from Lance on the move. This motion has him in-dribble going to the lane right away which forces Brand to switch. DC continues to try to recover and West takes just 1.5 steps back along the baseline. This gives Hill the return passing lane over the shorter Collison.
Hill does a hook pass over his head to the wide open West for an easy truly open jumper, which West hits. That's offense, that's what they need more of, and it was atypical on the night. I was talking about that play later because it stood out so much. A pick or screen that sets up an additional pick or screen works wonders.
Note that this was yet another out of timeout play call.
* and then the very next play Paul just dribbles into the right corner, does a couple of basic moves and pulls up for the long jumper miss, zero passing, setup, penetration....just when you start to believe
Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 11-17-2012 at 02:19 PM.
I'll pay very close attentiont to this vs the knicks but man I get the exact opposite opinion of that & I like Dahntay. Sam is a tank, if he were just 3 inches taller he would be a bruising power forward instead of a bruising small forward. Now if you were going to complain about his foot speed or God awful passing I could see, but getting pushed around?
I'm not going to proclaim you are wrong because maybe you saw something I didn't but I want to see this myself.
Speaking of Dahntay, how about that grab and yank takedown of Tyler, followed by the "what?!?" look. The camera view is from the opposite side, but from the bench sideline it was very obvious. He reached around Tyler's waste, hooked him and pulled him aside. Maybe it's his new variation of pulling the chair, more like throwing the chair?
"Freedom is nothing else but a chance to be better." - Albert Camus
"Appreciation is a wonderful thing. It makes what is excellent in others belong to us as well." - Voltaire
Michael Pina, Red94: "There are so many different ways the Pacers can beat you. They have an All-Star scoring threat, imposing figures on the front line, steady point guard play, and most importantly, a defense that'll choke the life out of just about every offense that crosses its path."
Alas, they tend to stick PG on the best scorer, which means Stephenson *usually* ends up guarding SFs and we get the same result.
Edit: Excluding Granger obviously.
Last edited by Eleazar; 11-17-2012 at 11:03 PM.