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Thread: Fixing the Pacers Offense and Attacking Zone Defenses

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    Member naptownmenace's Avatar
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    Default Fixing the Pacers Offense and Attacking Zone Defenses

    Because of the Pacers slow pace and very predictable offense, most teams are successfully stopping the Pacers with zone defenses. Even when they play man-to-man, the lack of movement away from the ball makes it easy for defenders to contest any pass made or shot attempted.

    Even last year the Pacers struggled against Zone defenses. Remember that collapse against Sacramento in January? The Pacers led by 14 and went 6-25 in the fourth quarter on their way to a disappointing loss. A Sacramento beat writer broke down how the Kings successfully attacked the Pacers with their zone play-by-play.

    http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2012/1...indiana-pacers

    With the exception of recovering on loose balls and offensive rebounds, the Kings were almost perfect defensively in the fourth quarter. This wasn't a fluke with the opponents missing tons of open shots. This was an opponent completely thrown off by the zone, the quickness of the Kings lineup and its own inability to get anything easy.
    Why do they struggle against the Zone? Sure they miss Danny's ability to knock down 3s but there are several ways to attack a zone other than knocking down 3s. You can attack it by increasing the motion of the offense. Motion away from the ball keeps the defense guessing. Setting screens can force a zone defender into moving out of position or create favorable mismatches.

    I've noticed is that the Pacers movement and screening technique in the halfcourt has been very poor and at time non-existent. What happened to setting screens to free up shooters? I haven't seen them do much of that since the first half of the first game of the season against Toronto. A lot of that is on the ball handler because they don't run their man into the screens properly and the other half of the problem is that they just don't set screens often enough. That's on the coaching staff as much as it is the players

    From the Guide to Basketball Coaching:
    The coach should never use players at a position where they show no ability. He should assign duties that best utilize the abilities of each player. The offense should keep the best rebounders in position to rebound, and the good shooters should take the most shots. All the others should understand proper screening technique to be able to screen for the better shooters.
    I think the Hibbert has been miscast as Patrick Ewing in our offense. He doesn't even have Rik Smits game in the post or shooting ability from the perimeter so unless he can post up and seal his man deep inside the lane, don't throw the ball to him in situations where he has to try to dribble and back his man down. I think he's at his best when he can catch the ball in a position to score. Think of how the Dallas Mavs and the Knicks used Tyson Chandler. That should be the way he's used in the Pacers offense. He should be setting a lot of screens away from the ball to free up shooters and could be used in Pick-and-Roll situations at the top of the key. He could wind up with some nice easy dunks if he slashes to the basket hard off those picks.

    The 4-1 Zone Offense could help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=...w&feature=fvwp


    Another way to hurt the Zone is to increase the tempo. So far the pace is way too slow and they are getting into their sets very slowly. That could be because of Hibbert and West. Neither player will win any foot races but they must push the tempo using a controlled fast-break. They were actually pretty successfully last year when they used this type of offense. Darren Collison was perfect for this type of offense but George Hill was also effective later in the season when he became the full-time starter.

    I'm no coach but I've watched enough games in my to see that the offense is stagnant. I'm sure Vogel and Shaw see it as well. It will be interesting to see if they incorporate any of these tactics. If not, it'll be a very long and painful season.

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    Member naptownmenace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fixing the Pacers Offense and Attacking Zone Defenses

    Sorry for another long post but I didn't want the points in the OP to get lost with what I'm posting here.

    I think this is what the current Pacers offense is - Double-Post Motion. Someone with more knowledge, please correct me if I'm wrong. Below is a good description of what it is. After reading this description, I don't think that this is the best offense for the Pacers because of they just don't have enough good perimeter shooters. However, the issue could also be that the post players just aren't executing the plays properly (neither West or Hibbert move enough on offense).

    Quote Originally Posted by GuidetoBasketballCoaching
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    http://www.guidetocoachingbasketball.com/offenses.htm

    Double-Post Motion basketball offense

    [b]Positioning Rules[b]

    The Post Men:

    You have 2 post players in this offense. They may locate at/or near 7 different spots:

    low post(s).
    mid post(s).
    elbow(s).
    top-half of free throw circle.

    When the offense begins both posts go down low and post up.

    The Perimeter Players:
    You have 3 perimeter players. The 5 spots they can locate at are:

    the point.
    the wing(s).
    the corner(s).

    When the offense begins the ball is in the point's hands and the other two players are usually in the wing areas. Perimeter players should try to stay about 12 feet apart. If you are more than 12 feet apart - the ball is in the air longer and the chance for a deflection increases.

    If you are closer than 12 feet you allow a defender to defend the pass and still be in position to stop the drive. Keep proper spacing.

    General Rules

    When you make a pass you must move - it is easy to guard someone standing still.

    Only dribble for the following reasons:

    to make an immediate drive to the basket.
    to improve your angle of pass to your teammate.
    to get out of trouble.
    to prevent a 5 second count violation. It is very important that your players understand what the 5 second count is.

    Post Rules

    Both posts should immediately go to the low post area on each side of the lane and post up. You want the ball in the low post - thus it is very important you teach your players how to post up.

    When the ball is passed from point to wing, this is when the posts begin to work together with rules. The weak side post will key on how his offensive post partner is defended.

    If the post on ball side is fronted the weak side post will flash ball side elbow. If he receives a pass we look for the low post pin and a high low play. If no high low pass then high post slides down and players have just switched spots.

    If the ball side post has the defense playing behind him - the weak side post breaks straight up the lane to the weak side elbow. We want the ball passed into the low post every time in this situation.

    Note if the weak side post defender doubles down then the weak side post player needs to get a pass out from the low post for the elbow jumper.

    If the defense plays the ball side low post with a 3/4 defense then the ball side post will come and screen for the weak side post. If the defense switches on this play - the screener always steps back to the ball.

    A teaching point we always use to prevent turnovers - low post player has his hand up yelling for the ball. When player is going to vacate the post (screen away), we drop our hand a one second count before we turn and go. This prevents turnovers when you pass and the player has vacated the post and the ball hits him in the back of the head.

    [b]The post player always has the freedom to break up to the high post when he sees the point to wing pass having trouble being made. This movement opens up the backdoor cut for the wing player.[b]

    Perimeter Rules

    The perimeter players have 5 spots to locate in. They can do the following:

    pass and cut to the basket and relocate to an open perimeter spot.
    pass and screen a partner perimeter player away from the ball.
    pass and "v" cut and replace yourself.
    relocate with a shallow or deep cuts.
    pass and slide - this is cutting to an open spot away from the ball.

    Any time that a pass is made to a high post player, the perimeter player who made the pass sets a pick for the perimeter player closest to that post with the ball. Using this pick that player cuts off the post looking for a hand off and an open path to the basket. Otherwise, keep good spacing, using the 3-point arc to help.
    The points in bold are what the Pacers don't do a good enough job at for this offense to be successful.
    Last edited by naptownmenace; 11-16-2012 at 10:37 AM.

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    Default Re: Fixing the Pacers Offense and Attacking Zone Defenses

    I didn't read this thread (sorry), just the title. No point to cause I know what it will say. why is it that people from all over have to explain to the public on how bad the Pacers are.

    I honestly don't think Frank knows how to attack a zone defense let alone run an offense best suited for his team and our best penetrator (DC) to help break a zone down is no longer with us. KP and Walsh just didn't see it necessary to have someone who can pick the tempo up and penetrate at will like DC....hmmm So, what the heck was they thinking? How to keep Big Roy!

    What exactly did Frank do in the off season, obviously, he didn't study our team and weaknesses to prevent this monstrosity from happening.


    Come on Pacers, get it together, this is very depressing!!!
    .

    Frank Vogel says "Killer instinct, start strong, build a lead and then step on their throats."

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    Default Re: Fixing the Pacers Offense and Attacking Zone Defenses

    This is somewhat quite obvious but Shaq is right we have to get Hibbert easy Buckets.
    http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nb...ime-pacers.nba

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    Default Re: Fixing the Pacers Offense and Attacking Zone Defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel33 View Post
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    This is somewhat quite obvious but Shaq is right we have to get Hibbert easy Buckets.
    http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nb...ime-pacers.nba
    You're right and Shaq pointed out something else the Pacers don't do. Post-and-Repost. Good point. They have to get into their offense quicker to do that. Even if they do it's going to be tough to score. Shaq forgot to mention that he had Brian Shaw, Rick Fox, Glen Rice, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, and Ron Harper to toss the ball out to.

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    Default Re: Fixing the Pacers Offense and Attacking Zone Defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel33 View Post
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    This is somewhat quite obvious but Shaq is right we have to get Hibbert easy Buckets.
    http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nb...ime-pacers.nba
    This is what I've been saying. He holds on the ball for far too long before making a move. He needs to decide to go left or right within 1-2 seconds. If he doesn't have anything then pass it out.

    All the while, when Roy does get into trouble, it always seems like our guys are on the opposite end of the court just standing around. There needs to be plans in place that as soon as Hibbert starts to make his move, the other guys need to move too. Run screens or something to get someone open in case Roy is in trouble.
    Lance + Starting SG = Awesome

    Now really free Lance!

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    Default Re: Fixing the Pacers Offense and Attacking Zone Defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparhawk View Post
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    This is what I've been saying. He holds on the ball for far too long before making a move. He needs to decide to go left or right within 1-2 seconds. If he doesn't have anything then pass it out.

    All the while, when Roy does get into trouble, it always seems like our guys are on the opposite end of the court just standing around. There needs to be plans in place that as soon as Hibbert starts to make his move, the other guys need to move too. Run screens or something to get someone open in case Roy is in trouble.
    Seriously, it shouldn't be so *****ing hard.
    Lance + Starting SG = Awesome

    Now really free Lance!

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    Default Re: Fixing the Pacers Offense and Attacking Zone Defenses

    Jeff Van Gundy says it best when he said the NBA is a "make or miss league". Right now our best players (Hibbert, Hill, West, George) are missing VERY makeable shots. To me, this more than anything, has been the issue.

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