Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 51 to 68 of 68

Thread: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

  1. #51
    On the Vogel Wagon gummy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Indy
    Posts
    3,924
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    For those calling for Vogel to lay into his team (there were a lot of those posts in the last few game threads) - he is.

    "The normally mild-mannered coach lost his cool in the locker room at halftime of Tuesday’s loss to Toronto. Then he came unglued after the first quarter Wednesday with his team down 16 points. Vogel ripped into his team so loudly, he could be heard on press row along the baseline."

    http://www.indystar.com/article/2012...yssey=obinsite

    Also from the article:

    "Vogel is in a tough situation because he has to toe the line when it comes to criticizing his players. Players like West and George Hill can handle being scrutinized, but the Pacers as a whole are a weak-minded team. You can see it in their body language on the court. Their team morale is the lowest it has been since Jim O’Brien was coach."

    Ugh.
    Last edited by gummy; 11-16-2012 at 04:10 PM.
    "Freedom is nothing else but a chance to be better." - Albert Camus

    "Appreciation is a wonderful thing. It makes what is excellent in others belong to us as well." - Voltaire

    Michael Pina, Red94: "There are so many different ways the Pacers can beat you. They have an All-Star scoring threat, imposing figures on the front line, steady point guard play, and most importantly, a defense that'll choke the life out of just about every offense that crosses its path."

  2. #52
    Member Sparhawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Age
    34
    Posts
    5,324

    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Quote Originally Posted by gummy View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    For those calling for Vogel to lay into his team (there were a lot of those posts in the last few game threads) - he is.

    "The normally mild-mannered coach lost his cool in the locker room at halftime of Tuesday’s loss to Toronto. Then he came unglued after the first quarter Wednesday with his team down 16 points. Vogel ripped into his team so loudly, he could be heard on press row along the baseline."

    http://www.indystar.com/article/2012...yssey=obinsite

    Also from the article:

    "Vogel is in a tough situation because he has to toe the line when it comes to criticizing his players. Players like West and George Hill can handle being scrutinized, but the Pacers as a whole are a weak-minded team. You can see it in their body language on the court. Their team morale is the lowest it has been since Jim O’Brien was coach."

    Ugh.
    Weak minded team.

    Man, that hurts.
    Lance + Starting SG = Awesome

    Now really free Lance!

  3. #53
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Age
    33
    Posts
    28,142

    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    @ChrisDenari: The @Pacers "D" and rebounding good enough to win. 4th in Scoring "D", 1st FG% "D". Major problem: 30th in scoring, FG%; 26th 3FG%, 20th FT.

  4. #54
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Indy
    Posts
    8,045

    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparhawk View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Weak minded team.

    Man, that hurts.
    To bad it is true, and it all starts with Hibbert.

  5. #55

    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    . . . Scout No. 1
    "They're searching for who should get the ball at the right time. (Coach Frank) Vogel has condensed his offense to only a handful of plays and runs them all the time. You know what's coming. They're easy to defend because you can play everybody straight up without the concern of getting beat. There's only occasional times where Roy Hibbert is going to go off. You know how he's getting the ball, the plays that are coming. They don't strike fear in anybody."
    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    . . . The playbook is too simple and has very little "punish you for attacking too much" type of secondary responses in terms of movement, picks and screens. . .Frank needs to take the next step more than Paul, Roy or George do. I hope he can, but I'm worried that he can't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Obviously the professional scouts are correct however in defense of Frank here a little I want to say this. . . I'm not saying Franks offense hasn't been an issue, it has, but Phil Jackson couldn't win with your only two reliable post players are continually missing easy shots that the offense has produced for them.
    I read the scout's take as a defense of Frank, not a condemnation. That Frank is doing pretty much all he can to make the offense simple enough for the players to run. The comments were not that the offense was bad in and of itself, but that Frank has had to simplify things so much [so the team is able to run it] rather than Frank's offense is bad. I thought it was saying our Pacers players are not very smart, not that the coach can't design an offense.

  6. #56
    On the Vogel Wagon gummy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Indy
    Posts
    3,924
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Quote Originally Posted by xIndyFan View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I read the scout's take as a defense of Frank, not a condemnation. That Frank is doing pretty much all he can to make the offense simple enough for the players to run. The comments were not that the offense was bad in and of itself, but that Frank has had to simplify things so much [so the team is able to run it] rather than Frank's offense is bad. I thought it was saying our Pacers players are not very smart, not that the coach can't design an offense.
    I think you are right. And before the next person says "How much more simple can it get?" (a comment based on last year's system) the implication is that the coaching staff tried to install a more complex system during camp and the players can't run it. Consequently, we have never actually seen it this year.

    Now that's partly on our team (low BB IQ overall) and partly on the coaching staff - they need to have a good feel for what the players can handle. But I understand that this can be difficult, because you do want to challenge your team to grow. Now that we're in the mess we're in I think it's clear that Frank and co. are going to need to do more than just simplify. We also need to diversify (even if the additional plays end up being relatively "simple").
    "Freedom is nothing else but a chance to be better." - Albert Camus

    "Appreciation is a wonderful thing. It makes what is excellent in others belong to us as well." - Voltaire

    Michael Pina, Red94: "There are so many different ways the Pacers can beat you. They have an All-Star scoring threat, imposing figures on the front line, steady point guard play, and most importantly, a defense that'll choke the life out of just about every offense that crosses its path."

  7. #57
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Chicago
    Age
    44
    Posts
    17,000

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Really. I thought those guys were brutal on Vogel. Maybe its the unsaid part... hard to imagine an experienced coach having some of the same issues right now, and I think that is what those anonmymous scouts were getting at. Frank looked good in the honeymoon period, but now that things aren't going well it could be that we're seeing a lack of depth in his bag of coaching tools. Vogel has simplified the offense for the benefit of his no-so-smart, poor ballhandling team and the scout is saying, "this is pretty easy to defend", questioning the decision to over simiplify (as he's clearly not getting the desired results.)
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  8. #58
    Member presto123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Noblesville, IN.
    Posts
    3,206

    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    The fan base fell in love with McBrick a few years ago because he made thundering dunks. That was all that he could do. Green may be about the same but more athletic.....
    That was not all he could do. He was the best passer on the team and better at that than anybody the Pacers have now. Heaven knows we could use that now.

  9. #59
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Everywhere. I live in a big motorhome and I travel the entire country
    Age
    67
    Posts
    3,288
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Quote Originally Posted by presto123 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    That was not all he could do. He was the best passer on the team and better at that than anybody the Pacers have now. Heaven knows we could use that now.
    Oh, please. He shouldn't even be in the NBA......

  10. #60
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    5,772

    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Tim, would you be of the opinion that making West a larger part of the offense at this time, in a sense encouraging him to be a bit selfish, would enhance the probability of winning a few more games until either additional players (Hibbert, George) can "step up" or Granger returns?
    Sorry...got wrapped up at work.

    I agree with this, though I think "assertive" is probably a better word. West is shooting at a near-career high clip in terms of attempts, but he's been missing over the last three games. I think West & Hill should be the guys looking to score, and every one else should play off of that.

    BTW...one of the big things about West needing to score more is that it alters the mechanics of the offense. Last year, West did a great deal of facilitating, and was generally the guy who reversed the ball, getting the offense to move from side-to-side. That isn't happening consistently - and when it does, they aren't converting on the shots as much.

  11. #61
    Pacers Fan For Life J7F's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Seymour, IN
    Age
    32
    Posts
    1,060

    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    That was far from brutal compared to the things I've been reading from Pacer fans on here...

    Not saying it's not somewhat deserved...
    Nothing in life worth having comes easy.

  12. #62
    Member GeniusJMG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Age
    23
    Posts
    83
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Oh, please. He shouldn't even be in the NBA......
    but mahinmi deserves to be in the NBA? McBob>Mahinmi

  13. #63
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    15,249

    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Painfully accurate.

  14. #64
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Everywhere. I live in a big motorhome and I travel the entire country
    Age
    67
    Posts
    3,288
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Quote Originally Posted by GeniusJMG View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    but mahinmi deserves to be in the NBA? McBob>Mahinmi
    Mahinmi is a true center McRoberts isn't....... The Lakers needed cheap bodies on the bench and they didn't keep him either...

  15. #65
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    In a Gym
    Age
    21
    Posts
    16,859
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Mahinmi is a true center McRoberts isn't....... The Lakers needed cheap bodies on the bench and they didn't keep him either...
    McRoberts would of been a great fit for Phil Jackson's offense. For what Mike Brown ran last year? Ya not so much I wish Josh would of got to play in the triangle he would of looked great.

  16. #66
    Yeah, I'm a Pacers fan. MyFavMartin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    In the Washington DC area
    Posts
    4,303
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Maybe do what Utah is and go big with Tyler at the 3?

  17. #67
    Member MikeDC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Pacers Land
    Posts
    118

    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    It's easy for those scouts to all be right when there are so many things wrong. As a practical matter, I'm not sure what the coach should be doing different. Hibbert is missing close shots. I don't think the PG play has been particularly adept at getting him the ball. I haven't seen most of the games b/c I don't have cable, but has the team noticeably gone away from getting him the ball in positions he got it in last year?

    It seems to me that things are worse across the board.
    1. Roy misses the same sort of shots he made last year.
    2. The PGs aren't as good at delivering the ball so they are getting him fewer close and easy looks than last year.
    3. The offense is even more predictable and one dimensional with Granger out.
    4. Replacing Granger and Collison with Green/Young and Augustin/Stephenson we should expect to be worse.

    My recipe for improvement would be
    1. Play Augustin more and hope like hell he gets it together. With a guy like Hibbert, it's incredibly important that we've got smart, good passers at every other position. The Pacers were successful last year playing Collison and Hill together. I'd do more of that.
    2. On that note too, I'd look to see if another solid PG can be procured without breaking the bank. Get a bigger guy who can play next to either of the two we've got, and Stephenson can be the fourth guy.

  18. #68
    You are my Lucifer D-BONE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Nirvana
    Posts
    6,943

    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Green is an iso player? Green can beat his man off the dribble? Green is a creator with the ball?

    What am I missing?

    He can jump. He can streak shoot the 3. I've seen no evidence that he can consistently break down D off the dribble and create for others or successfully score the ball. I think his ball handling looks about as dicey as PGs.
    I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

    -Emiliano Zapata

  19. The Following User Says Thank You to D-BONE For This Useful Post:


Similar Threads

  1. An Assessment of Pacer Talent
    By madison in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 04-26-2008, 10:59 AM
  2. An open honest discusion about the Pacers....
    By Peck in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 53
    Last Post: 12-29-2005, 03:38 PM
  3. Sporting News NBA preview, scouts take on the Pacers
    By Unclebuck in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 09-16-2005, 05:38 PM
  4. NBA scouts take on the Pacers.
    By Unclebuck in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 03-03-2005, 09:41 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •