I still firmly believe Green is a player we've been looking for, for a while. Someone who is good with iso when we need it and a decent creator. He's almost like a rookie though and it clearly showed as he gave Chase Budinger that layup and the win, but he's still only 26. He was never given a fair shot in the NBA, so he redeemed himself last season with the Nets. I like having him here off the bench. KP definitely seemed to like him a lot as he quickly signed him when free agency opened in the summer. I believe he'll average around 11 points a game during the year.
Outside of that assessment based on what these scouts are saying, I agree with them. Especially on DJ and the fact that he's far too laid back. I don't know what he thinks when he's out there, but he's not assertive whatsoever. I knew he wasn't going to be scoring a handful of points as his role is to be GH's backup, but he's almost invisible when he's out there. Even when he was Raymond Felton's backup in Charlotte a few years ago, he still was a strong guy to have off the bench. He almost looks like he doesn't care and that he was going to get a free ride coming to a team that had just come off being the 5 best in the league.
The offense has looked like a major train wreck as well. Too much "me me" ball out there and not enough teamwork. Guys simply are not on the same page. Roy also needs to man up in the post and get into position for guys to find him. He's not being patient. He really needs to dust the cobwebs off and stop criticizing himself because easy opportunities to score are being missed.
This is not looking like an auspicious season thus far and it's a disgrace.
My question is, why bring in a guy who can score in isos and a point guard who wants to be pass first if they're just going to be asked to play in an offense that doesn't necessarily suit either of them?
You confuse pessimistic with realistic. I said all last year that the Pacers were playing way over their heads. Management also said they overperformed last year. It was a magic year with no injuries to the Pacers and other teams having injuries at key times like the Magic in the playoffs.... They were not as good as everyone thought coming into this season. They are not as bad as some folks think they are right now... I predicted 48-34 this year and 5th or 6th in the East. This is because they didn't make any big changes. They tweaked their bench but they did nothing to improve their starters. Other teams did improve their starting units. I also said that if they had a major injury, they would scrap to be the 8th seed in the east.... This team only had one winning season in quite a long time.... It will take, time, their are ups and downs. This is one of the downs.....
While we don't have guys who do the former, the latter is within the reach of pretty much anyone smart enough to be in the NBA - IF the offense is designed for it, rather than being "go here - plant - don't move until something specific happens (like a screen set or a defense shift or whatever)". While that is a bit of an exaggeration, I feel like our offense is closer to "plant" than it is to "be in this area and be aware of the ballhandler".
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...
"We've got to be very clear about this. We don't want our players hanging around with murderers," said Larry Bird, Pacers president.
I read this yesterday and thought it was spot-on. And what's not directly said in here, but is an easy place to connect the dots is this: the team is so bad at handling the ball and passing that the simplified offense is incapable of finding ways to get the ball to Hibbert in position to earn his contract. When you're a post player, you've got to depend on the rest of the team getting you the ball in position to succeed, and that's not happening. It seems so simple, yet the Pacers are really bad at it.
Its too bad we don't have a starting-quality pure PG. And spare me the "Collison" story, he was great driving the ball but not much of a passer. We need another PG so we can move Hill to SG.
At this point, and I'm no Lance Stephenson fan, I'd rather run with TBD - Hill - Lance on the perimeter. That's got to be better than Hill - George - Lance or any other awful combination we've thrown out at the wing spots this year.
I think Hill needs to be on the court no matter what, and I'm glad he was re-signed, but I still wonder if he's got a better future at SG than PG? (And if his future at SG is going to be better than Paul George's future at SG? I think so.)
Mike Brown's available? Vogel is starting to look at lot like Dick Versace at this point. Some immediate success with a couple of gimmicks, minor amount of playoff success, and then **thud** that's all folks, nothing else.
But I'm not enthusiastic AT ALL for Shaw. We don't need to just swap-out with another assistant coach with no HC experience. I know people on here would ***** about any "re-tread" coach but this team needs a voice with more experience to brigde the gap between their potential and consistent results.
Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
And life itself, rushing over me
Life itself, the wind in black elms,
Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you
This is what I'm saying. The playbook is too simple and has very little "punish you for attacking too much" type of secondary responses in terms of movement, picks and screens. Of course teams are going to double Roy, but it's not just "well then pass it". You've got to have guys going to places that are good passing lanes and present good continuation of play flow. Roy doesn't need to kick it to the shot, he kicks it to the guy that's then drawing help from somewhere else because his man doubled and he moved without the ball, and then that leads to the shot. Or a guy moves off a pick/switch and then picks someone else in order to confuse the switches and rotations.Scout No. 1
"They're searching for who should get the ball at the right time. (Coach Frank) Vogel has condensed his offense to only a handful of plays and runs them all the time. You know what's coming. They're easy to defend because you can play everybody straight up without the concern of getting beat. There's only occasional times where Roy Hibbert is going to go off. You know how he's getting the ball, the plays that are coming. They don't strike fear in anybody."
They don't do any of that. Look at the low post to Roy plays. Besides the baseline give and go run through or the normal kick-out, what else do they do off of it? Stand and wait for Roy to beat a double team, and that takes so long that the drop down guy easily times his move with Roy's turn and disrupts him or knocks the ball completely loose. They don't even do a good job of quick reposts, that in-out-in-out keep guys from getting settled type of post work.
So teams just sit on it. And they Roy is getting a "good" look at the rim with a not-in-rhythm hook or runner or face up jumper (at best) that he misses.
When West does score it's always shoving his way through a double team, it's never in some quick, clear motion with space. So what kind of FG% do you expect that to generate?
Lance passing to the always in motion Tyler is about the only real active/motion offense we see, and I suspect that's mostly freelance between two guys that have familiarity.
Also I agree that of the 4 new guys, 3 look comfortable and DJ looks almost bored or disinterested. His play is well below what should be expected.
Green makes errors, but he also can shake guys for a drive to the rim and has come up with strong athletic plays well beyond dunks. Having hops to get in-traffic boards, challenge shots or chase plays down has a big impact. Just like people wanted to blame Sam Young and then he got benched for the two worst games the Pacers have played yet.
Green, Young and Mahinmi might not be starters, but they all can thrive in a good system. Right now the starters look just as bad, far worse than last year.
Vogel was always going to be the point of scrutiny this year. I said it during the off-season that to me he was the biggest question mark, and that wasn't because I thought he'd fail. I was one of the high mark predictors looking at 58 wins, and even without Granger I think they have enough talent to win 50.
But not if you have them using the playbook they are using right now. Not if they don't learn to react to how teams have decided to defend them. Bigs go to the FT line vs the zone but the team can't figure out how exactly to feed that or make it work for them. Teams triple Roy and no one knows what to do to punish them for it. That's why they are losing and why they have to be one of the 5 worst teams in the NBA at this point.
Frank needs to take the next step more than Paul, Roy or George do. I hope he can, but I'm worried that he can't.
Obviously the professional scouts are correct however in defense of Frank here a little I want to say this.
Roy all season and David the past 3 games are missing wide open shots that have been gotten in the flow of the offense or in other words by design.
Roy has been missing honest to God 3-4' baby hooks that last year was automatic. West has been missing his stright up 13-17' jumpers that once made him an all-star.
I'm not saying Franks offense hasn't been an issue, it has, but Phil Jackson couldn't win with your only two reliable post palyers are continuasly missing easy shots that the offense has produced for them.
I mean Bird/Thomas/Carlisle were all top dollar coach signings. I have no idea why we have such a paradox in this case.
God forgive me because I know he has saved the Pacers for the state of Indiana but right now I'm a little distraught with Herb because I honestly believe Birds flying the coop was because he was ready to go to the next level and Herb was ready for another 3 year plan.
Edit: Peck beat me to it.
You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....
I'm to the point I think Ian Mahinmi should start over Hibbert. Let Roy come of the bench and dominate back up centers to get his confidence back up. Mahinmi can start play 8 minutes then bring in Roy perhaps the demotion to the bench will light a fire under him. I don't care if he is making 13+ mil this year his performance ( more lack of) is not getting it done. Roy's too damn passive this season.
New York had the same issue last year but do you know what they changed? their starting point guard and their starting shooting guard were replaced with two above average passer and high IQ players in Felton and Kidd.
I guess my point is that for the Pacers to fix their issues they either have to have somebody to become some kind of star were he can take over anytime even if the offense is bad or they need to make some trades to bring high passing high BB IQ players to the team.
Walsh isn't going to make trades 9 games into the season. He'll wait and hope the players "bail" him out of his off season blunders. He'll only make a trade when he has no other option, and with a "wait and see attitude" it will be a long wait for others wanting a trade. Just get prepared to be more frustrated, and watch other NBA games if you want to view good BB being played.
I think the "selfish" tag on Tyler and especially West is a little harsh. Both of these guys get the ball a lot in situations with very little time on the clock, nobody moving to open a lane, and both of them have taken those shots their entire career. Tyler is more of a ball stopper than David, IMO, but check the time clock when TH gets the ball. Unless he just takes it from someone, or grabs a rebound and goes for the foul, his time is usually very short to make a move. That being said, I've posted before that Frank should make Tyler shoot 500 elbow jump shots a day and fine him for misses. He came here with a jump shot, I think he traded it for those cool goggles!