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Thread: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

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    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I don't consider West selfish at all. IMO he is too unselfish. his job is to score and be a leader on our team. I want him to shoot a lot, if he is open out to about 18 feet and realtively open I want him shooting. If he is posting and can get a decent shot off, I want him shooting. it isn't like we have Lebron on our team for him to pass the ball too. Right now he doesn't even have Granger to pass to. He's our best offensive player right now.
    Well he has been shooting a lot lately and how is that working out? I think he is getting tired, I don't think you can use him as much as you think, he is not a young player anymore.

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    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23 View Post
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    Tim, would you be of the opinion that making West a larger part of the offense at this time, in a sense encouraging him to be a bit selfish, would enhance the probability of winning a few more games until either additional players (Hibbert, George) can "step up" or Granger returns?
    I realize you didn't ask me, but if I were the coach that is actually what I would do. West is one of our better passers also. I would run more of the offense through West like we did against the Magic in the first round of the playoffs. West is the only player that might draw a double team and he is a willing passer.

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    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Well he has been shooting a lot lately and how is that working out? I think he is getting tired, I don't think you can use him as much as you think, he is not a young player anymore.
    Well then we are screwed. Not sure I agree with your assessment. I mean he was dead tired Saturday night, but other than that I think he is OK. But if you are correct, then we are screwed

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    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Green ... it bugs me when many in this forum get excited about his dunks. I don't care about his dunks
    Because God forbid we enjoy his dunks, if nothing else.


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    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    When it is on purpose I would call it ball dominant - it seems unfair to me to use a pejorative like "selfish" to describe what someone is asked and expected to do.
    I wouldn't call doing it on purpose as the team strategy the same as ball dominant or selfish. I don't consider ball dominant to be all that different from selfish.

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    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    If you have poor passers on your team, one way to "fix" that is to get your team to pass less. I don't think that is what we want though.

    I think the triangle offense would be a disaster. can you imagine these players trying to pass the ball when they have to think. Can you imagine them when they have to try and read the defense to decide where to cut. No, that won't work.
    You'd think with our size we would want to focus on setting a lot of off-ball screens to get someone open. Theoretically we take up more space when set screens, right?

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    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy View Post
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    This is it. Period. I just don't know how you fix it, without major trades.
    Me, either. On the one hand, we have Kevin Pritchard, suggesting we very well could make moves.

    On the other hand, Donnie Walsh and Herb Simon are his bosses, so... nevermind.

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    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    I still firmly believe Green is a player we've been looking for, for a while. Someone who is good with iso when we need it and a decent creator. He's almost like a rookie though and it clearly showed as he gave Chase Budinger that layup and the win, but he's still only 26. He was never given a fair shot in the NBA, so he redeemed himself last season with the Nets. I like having him here off the bench. KP definitely seemed to like him a lot as he quickly signed him when free agency opened in the summer. I believe he'll average around 11 points a game during the year.

    Outside of that assessment based on what these scouts are saying, I agree with them. Especially on DJ and the fact that he's far too laid back. I don't know what he thinks when he's out there, but he's not assertive whatsoever. I knew he wasn't going to be scoring a handful of points as his role is to be GH's backup, but he's almost invisible when he's out there. Even when he was Raymond Felton's backup in Charlotte a few years ago, he still was a strong guy to have off the bench. He almost looks like he doesn't care and that he was going to get a free ride coming to a team that had just come off being the 5 best in the league.

    The offense has looked like a major train wreck as well. Too much "me me" ball out there and not enough teamwork. Guys simply are not on the same page. Roy also needs to man up in the post and get into position for guys to find him. He's not being patient. He really needs to dust the cobwebs off and stop criticizing himself because easy opportunities to score are being missed.

    This is not looking like an auspicious season thus far and it's a disgrace.

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    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    My question is, why bring in a guy who can score in isos and a point guard who wants to be pass first if they're just going to be asked to play in an offense that doesn't necessarily suit either of them?

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    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I have to agree with part of this. I think what has been missing is that the pass targets aren't moving without the ball to help the passer find a good passing lane - in fact, some of the turnovers have clearly been when someone with some semblance of court vision sees an open spot and that a player has a route to it, passes it there, but the pass receiver hasn't bothered to move to the open spot.

    We really just fail to move.
    Yeah I don't think we have the players to have a moving and well flowing offense, the Pacers need players that can move without the ball and that are smart enough not to throw the ball away.

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    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    You confuse pessimistic with realistic. I said all last year that the Pacers were playing way over their heads. Management also said they overperformed last year. It was a magic year with no injuries to the Pacers and other teams having injuries at key times like the Magic in the playoffs.... They were not as good as everyone thought coming into this season. They are not as bad as some folks think they are right now... I predicted 48-34 this year and 5th or 6th in the East. This is because they didn't make any big changes. They tweaked their bench but they did nothing to improve their starters. Other teams did improve their starting units. I also said that if they had a major injury, they would scrap to be the 8th seed in the east.... This team only had one winning season in quite a long time.... It will take, time, their are ups and downs. This is one of the downs.....

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    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Yeah I don't think we have the players to have a moving and well flowing offense, the Pacers need players that can move without the ball and that are smart enough not to throw the ball away.
    I'm not sure I completely agree here. There's a difference between moving without the ball while reading a defense and moving without the ball as part of an offense designed to put you in an area rather than plant you in a specific spot.

    While we don't have guys who do the former, the latter is within the reach of pretty much anyone smart enough to be in the NBA - IF the offense is designed for it, rather than being "go here - plant - don't move until something specific happens (like a screen set or a defense shift or whatever)". While that is a bit of an exaggeration, I feel like our offense is closer to "plant" than it is to "be in this area and be aware of the ballhandler".
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    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I aqgree 100% with all of this. His comments about Green are right on and it bugs me when many in this forum get excited about his dunks. I don't care about his dunks

    http://www.indystar.com/article/20121115/SPORTS04/211150364/What-s-wrong-Pacers-NBA-scouts-weigh-in?nclick_check=1


    The Indiana Pacers' goals for the season didn't change when they learned leading-scorer Danny Granger would miss at least three months.

    How they achieve those goals did, though.

    What was a team that clicked offensively and was solid defensively last season has been brutal on offense and experiencing defensive breakdowns at the wrong time this year.
    Those two problems are the primary reasons why the Pacers are 3-6 heading into tonight's home game with Dallas.

    The Star recently talked to three NBA scouts who have watched the Pacers in person or on film this season to get their take on what has gone wrong.

    Biggest problem

    Scout No. 1
    "They're searching for who should get the ball at the right time. (Coach Frank) Vogel has condensed his offense to only a handful of plays and runs them all the time. You know what's coming. They're easy to defend because you can play everybody straight up without the concern of getting beat. There's only occasional times where Roy Hibbert is going to go off. You know how he's getting the ball, the plays that are coming. They don't strike fear in anybody."

    Scout No. 2
    "You hate to compare what a guy is making like in Hibbert's case, but the reality is when you pay him all that money you expect him to easily get you double figures in points and rebounds. The shots he's missing are point-blank shots; it's not like he's shooting jumpers. You're talking about jump hooks, two or three feet from the basket. You see his confidence is not there."

    Scout No. 3
    "They're just a careless team. They don't know how to pass the basketball, that's why they're near the top of the league in turnovers. It's simple passes that aren't being made. You can't have an offensive structure if you don't know to feed the ball into the post."


    Replacing Granger

    Scout No. 1
    "David West is a legitimate pro, but he's too unselfish of a player and he's not going to go out there and give you 20-plus points a night. That's not his nature. The two people who should be doing that are Hibbert and (George) Hill. Hibbert has never handled pressure well in his career. Hill has more pressure on him to think while he's playing point guard. He's a better instinctual player. Playing off the ball (at shooting guard) will help him. It'll allow him to just play and score."

    Scout No. 3
    "You would think it would be Paul George since he's supposed to be the heir apparent at small forward for the Pacers. But he hasn't had the same impact that he had last year. Maybe it's because without Danny he's the focus of more team's scouting reports. The other thing about Paul is, he's not a good ball handler. You can't put the ball in his hands and tell him to make a play. You have to be able to handle the ball to do that."


    Bench woes

    Scout No. 2
    "I thought (D.J.) Augustin was going to be better than what he is. He's way too laid back when he plays. It's almost like he doesn't care. He needs to get back to playing aggressive the way he did in Charlotte. Gerald Green is who he is. He was successful in New Jersey because they were basically playing one-on-one basketball out there. That's his strong suit. But that's not how the Pacers play. If you (isolate) him then they're not going to get a lot of ball movement. You know what you're going to get from (Tyler) Hansbrough. A lot of energy from an undersized power forward."

    Scout No. 3
    "Remember the play in Minnesota where Green got beat for the winning basket when Chase (Budinger) went backdoor? That summed up Green right there. Freakishly athletic but not a smart basketball player. You'll be fine with him if you like dunks. You just can't depend on him in key moments of the game."
    I will now sum it up for everyone: We're ****ed.
    "We've got to be very clear about this. We don't want our players hanging around with murderers," said Larry Bird, Pacers president.

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    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    I read this yesterday and thought it was spot-on. And what's not directly said in here, but is an easy place to connect the dots is this: the team is so bad at handling the ball and passing that the simplified offense is incapable of finding ways to get the ball to Hibbert in position to earn his contract. When you're a post player, you've got to depend on the rest of the team getting you the ball in position to succeed, and that's not happening. It seems so simple, yet the Pacers are really bad at it.

    Its too bad we don't have a starting-quality pure PG. And spare me the "Collison" story, he was great driving the ball but not much of a passer. We need another PG so we can move Hill to SG.

    At this point, and I'm no Lance Stephenson fan, I'd rather run with TBD - Hill - Lance on the perimeter. That's got to be better than Hill - George - Lance or any other awful combination we've thrown out at the wing spots this year.

    I think Hill needs to be on the court no matter what, and I'm glad he was re-signed, but I still wonder if he's got a better future at SG than PG? (And if his future at SG is going to be better than Paul George's future at SG? I think so.)

    Mike Brown's available? Vogel is starting to look at lot like Dick Versace at this point. Some immediate success with a couple of gimmicks, minor amount of playoff success, and then **thud** that's all folks, nothing else.

    But I'm not enthusiastic AT ALL for Shaw. We don't need to just swap-out with another assistant coach with no HC experience. I know people on here would ***** about any "re-tread" coach but this team needs a voice with more experience to brigde the gap between their potential and consistent results.
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    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Scout No. 1
    "They're searching for who should get the ball at the right time. (Coach Frank) Vogel has condensed his offense to only a handful of plays and runs them all the time. You know what's coming. They're easy to defend because you can play everybody straight up without the concern of getting beat. There's only occasional times where Roy Hibbert is going to go off. You know how he's getting the ball, the plays that are coming. They don't strike fear in anybody."
    This is what I'm saying. The playbook is too simple and has very little "punish you for attacking too much" type of secondary responses in terms of movement, picks and screens. Of course teams are going to double Roy, but it's not just "well then pass it". You've got to have guys going to places that are good passing lanes and present good continuation of play flow. Roy doesn't need to kick it to the shot, he kicks it to the guy that's then drawing help from somewhere else because his man doubled and he moved without the ball, and then that leads to the shot. Or a guy moves off a pick/switch and then picks someone else in order to confuse the switches and rotations.

    They don't do any of that. Look at the low post to Roy plays. Besides the baseline give and go run through or the normal kick-out, what else do they do off of it? Stand and wait for Roy to beat a double team, and that takes so long that the drop down guy easily times his move with Roy's turn and disrupts him or knocks the ball completely loose. They don't even do a good job of quick reposts, that in-out-in-out keep guys from getting settled type of post work.

    So teams just sit on it. And they Roy is getting a "good" look at the rim with a not-in-rhythm hook or runner or face up jumper (at best) that he misses.

    When West does score it's always shoving his way through a double team, it's never in some quick, clear motion with space. So what kind of FG% do you expect that to generate?


    Lance passing to the always in motion Tyler is about the only real active/motion offense we see, and I suspect that's mostly freelance between two guys that have familiarity.



    Also I agree that of the 4 new guys, 3 look comfortable and DJ looks almost bored or disinterested. His play is well below what should be expected.


    Green makes errors, but he also can shake guys for a drive to the rim and has come up with strong athletic plays well beyond dunks. Having hops to get in-traffic boards, challenge shots or chase plays down has a big impact. Just like people wanted to blame Sam Young and then he got benched for the two worst games the Pacers have played yet.

    Green, Young and Mahinmi might not be starters, but they all can thrive in a good system. Right now the starters look just as bad, far worse than last year.


    Vogel was always going to be the point of scrutiny this year. I said it during the off-season that to me he was the biggest question mark, and that wasn't because I thought he'd fail. I was one of the high mark predictors looking at 58 wins, and even without Granger I think they have enough talent to win 50.

    But not if you have them using the playbook they are using right now. Not if they don't learn to react to how teams have decided to defend them. Bigs go to the FT line vs the zone but the team can't figure out how exactly to feed that or make it work for them. Teams triple Roy and no one knows what to do to punish them for it. That's why they are losing and why they have to be one of the 5 worst teams in the NBA at this point.

    Frank needs to take the next step more than Paul, Roy or George do. I hope he can, but I'm worried that he can't.

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    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I read this yesterday and thought it was spot-on. And what's not directly said in here, but is an easy place to connect the dots is this: the team is so bad at handling the ball and passing that the simplified offense is incapable of finding ways to get the ball to Hibbert in position to earn his contract. When you're a post player, you've got to depend on the rest of the team getting you the ball in position to succeed, and that's not happening. It seems so simple, yet the Pacers are really bad at it.

    Its too bad we don't have a starting-quality pure PG. And spare me the "Collison" story, he was great driving the ball but not much of a passer. We need another PG so we can move Hill to SG.

    At this point, and I'm no Lance Stephenson fan, I'd rather run with TBD - Hill - Lance on the perimeter. That's got to be better than Hill - George - Lance or any other awful combination we've thrown out at the wing spots this year.

    I think Hill needs to be on the court no matter what, and I'm glad he was re-signed, but I still wonder if he's got a better future at SG than PG? (And if his future at SG is going to be better than Paul George's future at SG? I think so.)

    Mike Brown's available? Vogel is starting to look at lot like Dick Versace at this point. Some immediate success with a couple of gimmicks, minor amount of playoff success, and then **thud** that's all folks, nothing else.

    But I'm not enthusiastic AT ALL for Shaw. We don't need to just swap-out with another assistant coach with no HC experience. I know people on here would ***** about any "re-tread" coach but this team needs a voice with more experience to brigde the gap between their potential and consistent results.
    I agree with you but Simon will go cheap with another assistant coach. If not Shaw, then someone else. What retread do you want. SVG is available but he alienates his players quickly. Sloan is getting mighty old and probably would not be interested in the Pacers.... I just don't see a lot of "great" coaches out there who would want to come to Indiana....

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    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Obviously the professional scouts are correct however in defense of Frank here a little I want to say this.

    Roy all season and David the past 3 games are missing wide open shots that have been gotten in the flow of the offense or in other words by design.

    Roy has been missing honest to God 3-4' baby hooks that last year was automatic. West has been missing his stright up 13-17' jumpers that once made him an all-star.

    I'm not saying Franks offense hasn't been an issue, it has, but Phil Jackson couldn't win with your only two reliable post palyers are continuasly missing easy shots that the offense has produced for them.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    I agree with you but Simon will go cheap with another assistant coach. If not Shaw, then someone else. What retread do you want. SVG is available but he alienates his players quickly. Sloan is getting mighty old and probably would not be interested in the Pacers.... I just don't see a lot of "great" coaches out there who would want to come to Indiana....
    That's really the odd thing about Herb Simon. In the past he has not been shy about paying top dollar to bring in a big name coach yet has never been able to get in the bidding for a top flight player talent.

    I mean Bird/Thomas/Carlisle were all top dollar coach signings. I have no idea why we have such a paradox in this case.

    God forgive me because I know he has saved the Pacers for the state of Indiana but right now I'm a little distraught with Herb because I honestly believe Birds flying the coop was because he was ready to go to the next level and Herb was ready for another 3 year plan.


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    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    I agree with you but Simon will go cheap with another assistant coach.
    Are you saying for this season or after? This idea Simon is too cheap for a name coach seems off base to me. I don't think Bird, Carlisle, Thomas, or Brown were cheap pickups. We can agree there have been mistakes, but cheap has not been a problem going back to the hiring of Jack Ramsey.

    Edit: Peck beat me to it.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    I'm to the point I think Ian Mahinmi should start over Hibbert. Let Roy come of the bench and dominate back up centers to get his confidence back up. Mahinmi can start play 8 minutes then bring in Roy perhaps the demotion to the bench will light a fire under him. I don't care if he is making 13+ mil this year his performance ( more lack of) is not getting it done. Roy's too damn passive this season.

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    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Quote Originally Posted by diamonddave00 View Post
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    I'm to the point I think Ian Mahinmi should start over Hibbert. Let Roy come of the bench and dominate back up centers to get his confidence back up. Mahinmi can start play 8 minutes then bring in Roy perhaps the demotion to the bench will light a fire under him. I don't care if he is making 13+ mil this year his performance ( more lack of) is not getting it done. Roy's too damn passive this season.
    He couldn't post up Larry Sanders, I dont think Roy can dominate back up bigs at this point. BUT I like the idea of starting Ian

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    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I'm not sure I completely agree here. There's a difference between moving without the ball while reading a defense and moving without the ball as part of an offense designed to put you in an area rather than plant you in a specific spot.

    While we don't have guys who do the former, the latter is within the reach of pretty much anyone smart enough to be in the NBA - IF the offense is designed for it, rather than being "go here - plant - don't move until something specific happens (like a screen set or a defense shift or whatever)". While that is a bit of an exaggeration, I feel like our offense is closer to "plant" than it is to "be in this area and be aware of the ballhandler".
    Don't think that the Pacers are the only team with a movin less type of offense, OKC's offense right now is as bad as the Pacers offense, they pretty much play ISO offense all the time, the only difference is that OKC has two superstars, just look at their starting unit, only Durant is a decent passer and I probably put him on the Paul George category regarding passing.

    New York had the same issue last year but do you know what they changed? their starting point guard and their starting shooting guard were replaced with two above average passer and high IQ players in Felton and Kidd.

    I guess my point is that for the Pacers to fix their issues they either have to have somebody to become some kind of star were he can take over anytime even if the offense is bad or they need to make some trades to bring high passing high BB IQ players to the team.

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    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Quote Originally Posted by MAStamper View Post
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    You'd think with our size we would want to focus on setting a lot of off-ball screens to get someone open.
    This.

    Or anything a little more complex than iso ball with not very good iso players or pick and roll with not that great of pick and roll players.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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  34. #49

    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Don't think that the Pacers are the only team with a movin less type of offense, OKC's offense right now is as bad as the Pacers offense, they pretty much play ISO offense all the time, the only difference is that OKC has two superstars, just look at their starting unit, only Durant is a decent passer and I probably put him on the Paul George category regarding passing.

    New York had the same issue last year but do you know what they changed? their starting point guard and their starting shooting guard were replaced with two above average passer and high IQ players in Felton and Kidd.

    I guess my point is that for the Pacers to fix their issues they either have to have somebody to become some kind of star were he can take over anytime even if the offense is bad or they need to make some trades to bring high passing high BB IQ players to the team.

    Walsh isn't going to make trades 9 games into the season. He'll wait and hope the players "bail" him out of his off season blunders. He'll only make a trade when he has no other option, and with a "wait and see attitude" it will be a long wait for others wanting a trade. Just get prepared to be more frustrated, and watch other NBA games if you want to view good BB being played.

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  36. #50

    Default Re: 3 scouts brutally honest assessment of the Pacers - Indystar

    I think the "selfish" tag on Tyler and especially West is a little harsh. Both of these guys get the ball a lot in situations with very little time on the clock, nobody moving to open a lane, and both of them have taken those shots their entire career. Tyler is more of a ball stopper than David, IMO, but check the time clock when TH gets the ball. Unless he just takes it from someone, or grabs a rebound and goes for the foul, his time is usually very short to make a move. That being said, I've posted before that Frank should make Tyler shoot 500 elbow jump shots a day and fine him for misses. He came here with a jump shot, I think he traded it for those cool goggles!

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