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Thread: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    I think it's both. It's not an either/or for me.

    People I am not arguing Danny isn't a good offensive player. I am not arguing that he doesn't help the offense. This thread was originally about our problems as a team in regards to this rough start, and whether or not it's because Danny is out. I think it has something to do with it, mainly that it has thrust Paul George and Roy Hibbert into roles neither are comfortable with.

    But, overall I feel like our lack of good guard play will hinder us regardless, no matter how strong Danny returns. And we won't build on last years success by going further into the playoffs. Once you get past the first round you are playing the ELITE teams. You can't get to the conference finals with George Hill and Paul George in the back court. JMO
    Unless you have a Lebron James, Carmelo Anthony type of scorer at the SF. I agree with you 100% on this.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I'll quote you so I don't take you out of context.




    So again I ask, who's been arguing that Danny is a facilitator? That's not what people said, nor implying. Danny isn't a facilitator, he's a finisher.





    And yet you're arguing that the problems last year are the same exact problems as this year. I'll even quote you again.



    So the problems are the exact same as last year, and the only difference this year is that Danny is out, but Danny playing again won't result like last year, because each year is different.

    Gotcha.
    You are talking like what we did last year is the goal for this year. It's not, we are supposed to be better.

    That says "expecting him to facilitate", not that they are arguing he is a great facilitator. If you want me to respond to your points, at least portray my view accurately. Our offense has never been great under Vogel, our defense has always carried us. So I am not sure how you can act like offense wasn't an issue even with Danny. I thought that was just common knowledge.

    They are the same problems as last year. Did you not watch the Miami series or even the Chicago series the year before? When they finally started playing defense late in the series, we couldn't score. And we did nothing to correct it. We are coming with the same approach and talent level. The only difference is teams have a lot more tape and have played against Vogels scheme a few times. Not a recipe for growth, JMO.



    Im not sure what you are arguing exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Well there's the disconnect.


    No one is arguing that Danny is a solution good enough to make the Pacers an elite offensive team. Instead the argument is that Danny is a solution that will make the Pacers as good as last years offense.

    Getting back to last years level would be a huge positive.
    I disagree. We are supposed to be growing, we are supposed to be better. All of my posts are about us reaching new heights.
    Last edited by Taterhead; 11-15-2012 at 02:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    NOBODY IS DISPUTING THIS FACT!!! lol.

    Since he's been our main offensive option, our offense has NEVER looked THIS BADI mean even when we had Earl Freakin Watson as our starting PG, we were still able to score a lot of nights (yes it's because of JOB's bs system) with Danny at the helm. He was a good-great scorer on a bad team. As bad as our team is playing now, we don't even have anyone that can be a good to great scorer on a bad team lol.

    We know we need more facilitators, shooters, and shot creators. Nobody can dispute that. If nothing else, then we definitely need a player that can do at least two of the three. Danny is only a shooter and a scorer. We know he won't solve all of our problems, but he's definitely been taken for granted for what he provides this team.
    I remember that the offense looked this bad a lot of times last year and the Pacers had to play "hero ball" a lot to beat teams.

    Even this year they went to "hero ball" by going to either West or Hill non stop, I think that if you pay attention to other teams OKC runs the same crapy offense than the Pacers but the difference is that they have two superstars to get them over the hill.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    That says "expecting him to facilitate", not that they are arguing he is a great facilitator. If you want me to respond to your points, at least portray my view accurately.
    Which isn't what I said either.

    So again I ask, who's been arguing that Danny is a facilitator? That's not what people said, nor implying. Danny isn't a facilitator, he's a finisher.
    Let me rephrase if it will help you.

    Who expects Danny to facilitate?

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    I disagree. We are supposed to be growing, we are supposed to be better. All of my posts are about us reaching new heights.
    So unless the Pacers reach the ECF, this season will be a bust?

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I remember that the offense looked this bad a lot of times last year and the Pacers had to play "hero ball" a lot to beat teams.

    Even this year they went to "hero ball" by going to either West or Hill non stop, I think that if you pay attention to other teams OKC runs the same crapy offense than the Pacers but the difference is that they have two superstars to get them over the hill.
    We looked bad at times, but not this consistently bad. Guys missing 2 ft bunny layups, turning the ball over just because (we were one of the best in the league at nor turning the ball over), etc. Forget guys getting 20, guys are struggling to get over 15 right now. It may not have pretty last year, but I don't recall it being THIS bad.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    So unless the Pacers reach the ECF, this season will be a bust?
    Not in my book but some here had overinflated expectations for this team.... I still think they will be a five or six seed and lose in the first round of the playoffs.....

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    I think this early season struggle has shined a huge light on our flaws as a team.

    I couldn't agree more. Then with Granger out it has just magnified those flaws.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    So unless the Pacers reach the ECF, this season will be a bust?
    Yep, why don't you ask them? That is their expectations not mine, at least the way the team is constructed.

    Read that again Since86, I never said people were saying, I said people expect Danny to facilitate offense. That is what is called an opinion. Not sure what else to say.

    Anyone who thinks he's going to come back and the offense will magically be fixed, is expecting him to "facilitate " the offense.

    Facilitate means "to make easier", per Merriams.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    Yep, why don't you ask them? That is their expectations not mine, at least the way the team is constructed.

    Read that again Since86, I never said people were saying, I said people expect Danny to facilitate offense. That is what is called an opinion. Not sure what else to say.

    Anyone who thinks he's going to come back and the offense will magically be fixed, is expecting him to "facilitate " the offense.

    Facilitate means "to make easier", per Merriams.

    I think right now they would say "we just want to win some games" and if they do that the rest will take care of itself.....

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Words have different meanings in different contexts. In the context of basketball, facilitate is more often used in terms of actually running the offense in general, or passing the ball, not just making the offense easier.



    And all I was asking for is for some names that argued it. I've asked several times with no answer. I asked for names, because like I said, I think what other people have said and how you've taken it, are to different things.

    If you're using the term facilitate to just mean Granger makes the offense easier to run, then yeah, he's a facilitator. Which is why the offense has bogged down. Without him on the court, defenses are left to lock in on clogging the middle making Roy and West ineffective as they normally are.
    Last edited by Since86; 11-15-2012 at 03:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    I think right now they would say "we just want to win some games" and if they do that the rest will take care of itself.....
    Right now youre right blu, thanks for sharing. But I heard a lot of talk about us taking the next step in the offseason and I'm gonna hold them to it. I stick by what I say, for the long haul, when I'm right I'm right and if I'm wrong I don't have a problem admitting that either. You should try it sometimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Words have different meanings in different contexts. In the context of basketball, facilitate is more often used in terms of actually running the offense in general, or passing the ball, not just making the offense easier.



    And all I was asking for is for some names that argued it. I've asked several times with no answer.
    C'mon man!
    Last edited by Taterhead; 11-15-2012 at 03:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Playbook: Hawes Facilitates High-low Offense

    With center Andrew Bynum now serving as the Sixers' primary offensive target in the post, head coach Doug Collins envisions forward-center Spencer Hawes using his elite vision and passing ability to create opportunities for the former-Laker. In Los Angeles, Bynum played alongside Pau Gasol, whose style of play is very similar to that of Hawes.
    http://www.nba.com/sixers/playbook-h...gh-low-offense

    It's more commonly used as a synonym with distribute/create.

    We were just using two different usages of the word. Danny doesn't distribute or create for others.



    But yeah, Danny is a facilitator in this offense because he spaces the floor. There's no room to operate on the inside, because the defense doesn't have to worry about the wings killing them. There's no threat on the floor to hurt teams. Danny won't fix every single problem of the offense, but he would fix a lot of it.

    The entire system is built around having complimentary players who use different strengths to cover up their teammates weaknesses. Danny is a very important part of that machine.

    How do you beat double teams? By knocking down shots by the open man. The Pacers cannot do it right now, so the double stays and causes havoc for the offensive post player.
    Last edited by Since86; 11-15-2012 at 04:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    It's just hard for me to understand how a teams best scorer can go down, and people not think that it's going to have a pretty substantial negative effect on the teams offense.

    Pacers are a low scoring team, so taking out an automatic 20pts every night puts a lot of pressure on the rest of the squad. They rely on the spacing that Danny creates through pure defensive focus. It's 20% of the offense just gone.
    Last edited by Since86; 11-15-2012 at 04:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Strummer View Post
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    Right now Lance is doing a good job of showing that he's learned to be a team player. Even with things falling apart, he's still deferring to the vets and not been tempted to "freelance" and try to take over games by himself. I think that's what Frank wanted to see. So I expect Frank will start giving Lance the green light more often. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon and for the rest of the season.
    Freelance!
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    If Vnzla had to admit that Danny was this important to the team, he would be wrong and that would be a travesty he is not willing to face.

    EDIT: The truth as always is in the middle, does Danny immediately make us the 5th best team in the NBA again? No. Are we probably 5-4 or 6-3 instead of 3-6? I think so.
    5-4 against a pretty weak schedule.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    This just doesn't make much sense, IMHO.

    If the problems of last year are the problems of this year, and last years team was good and this years team is bad, then what explains the difference?

    You're arguing that it isn't Danny, yet him not playing is the only significant difference between last year and this year, besides the bench. Or do you just think the entire problem is the bench?

    If the problems are the same this year as they were last year, then shouldn't we be able to expect similiar results as opposed to the direct opposite?

    Neither you nor Vnlza has been able to provide any reasoning as to why this year is so different than last year, other than simply hanging your hat on last year being an aberration.
    I'll take a stab at that.

    We squeezed as much out of last year's team as possible. Great hustle. Motivated coach. No injuries. Every single component had to work to accomplish what we did. Pull out one key component and . . . Kerplunk!
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    http://www.nba.com/sixers/playbook-h...gh-low-offense

    It's more commonly used as a synonym with distribute/create.

    We were just using two different usages of the word. Danny doesn't distribute or create for others.



    But yeah, Danny is a facilitator in this offense because he spaces the floor. There's no room to operate on the inside, because the defense doesn't have to worry about the wings killing them. There's no threat on the floor to hurt teams. Danny won't fix every single problem of the offense, but he would fix a lot of it.

    The entire system is built around having complimentary players who use different strengths to cover up their teammates weaknesses. Danny is a very important part of that machine.

    How do you beat double teams? By knocking down shots by the open man. The Pacers cannot do it right now, so the double stays and causes havoc for the offensive post player.
    I think of a facilitator as someone who gets his teammates easy baskets either by breaking down the defense from the outside, or in the post. I don't think Danny really does that. Granger to me is the finisher, not the guy that starts out the process of a successful play.

    Again, we DO miss Granger, a lot more than I thought we would when I heard he was out. I hoped Paul George would step up and fill his void as a shooter and provide us with more athleticism, making us a quicker team, opening up transition and providing us with more punch off the dribble. He might yet show that, but so far he's looked lost. I also hoped Lance would finally get his chance, and he has minutes wise, but he seems to be handcuffed out there by the coach.

    I think we just were on two different pages here. I am not insulting Danny's importance to the team. For us to be the kind of team we were last year we need Danny's shooting, no doubt. But IMO for us to take that next step we gotta make a choice between DG and PG at the 3 spot.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    So unless the Pacers reach the ECF, this season will be a bust?
    You may be hitting at the heart of the controversy.

    It's not a bust if we don't reach the ECF. It's a bust if we don't try.

    Certain longtime posters have said for several seasons that we have a systemic flaw in the offense, and they don't believe TPTB have made the big moves necessary to fix that, and that TPTB have not attempted to. Some even believe Bird left for that very reason.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    You may be hitting at the heart of the controversy.

    It's not a bust if we don't reach the ECF. It's a bust if we don't try.

    Certain longtime posters have said for several seasons that we have a systemic flaw in the offense, and they don't believe TPTB have made the big moves necessary to fix that, and that TPTB have not attempted to. Some even believe Bird left for that very reason.
    Raises hand.....


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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I think that if the Pacers front office if instead of signing Green and Young had signed Crawford or Mayo nobody would be missing Danny as much, the issue is not that the team misses Danny, the issue is that the Pacers have a bunch of scrubs to replace him.

    In reality Paul George is doing a pretty good job in replacing Danny's numbers plus he is playing better D and rebounding at a higher rate than Danny, people love to think about the Danny of four years ago while forgetting that his productivity has been declining every year, last year was bad other than one month were he found a way to make his numbers look decent.

    Right now the problem is not replacing Danny but replacing Paul George at small guard.

    Edit: I'm not saying that signing either player could make the Pacers contenders either, their issues are deeper than missing an scorer.
    I agree with you here as I wanted Mayo but was "hopeful" Green would fullfil and there's still time, we shall see. I have NO problem what so ever with PG, yes his shot is off & needs to work on taking it to the rack with some authority but his rebounding & D are top notch. I think you misunderstood me, I agree with most that you said. I also think that DG really helped space the floor for us, you had to respect the 3 ball. I also like how he was ready to go toe to toe with the Heat (not saying anybody on the team wasnt, but DG was looking for it, I liked that). I know we have West but they really miss DG's leadership & toughness, traits that are hard to acquire/replace via FA's, esp lower tier/hoping for the moon type of guys. What I'm trying to say is sometimes stats arent the only defining measure of a players value to thier team.

    I'm all for PG playing SF while DG is out but thats just my 2 cents & I sit on the couch....be nice to have a TRUE "shooting" guard. Lance had 3 shots last night in 30 minutes? Nobody is gonna respect that! More looks/shots from Lance?

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    You may be hitting at the heart of the controversy.

    It's not a bust if we don't reach the ECF. It's a bust if we don't try.

    Certain longtime posters have said for several seasons that we have a systemic flaw in the offense, and they don't believe TPTB have made the big moves necessary to fix that, and that TPTB have not attempted to. Some even believe Bird left for that very reason.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by jtroub8 View Post
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    I agree with you here as I wanted Mayo but was "hopeful" Green would fullfil and there's still time, we shall see. I have NO problem what so ever with PG, yes his shot is off & needs to work on taking it to the rack with some authority but his rebounding & D are top notch. I think you misunderstood me, I agree with most that you said. I also think that DG really helped space the floor for us, you had to respect the 3 ball. I also like how he was ready to go toe to toe with the Heat (not saying anybody on the team wasnt, but DG was looking for it, I liked that). I know we have West but they really miss DG's leadership & toughness, traits that are hard to acquire/replace via FA's, esp lower tier/hoping for the moon type of guys. What I'm trying to say is sometimes stats arent the only defining measure of a players value to thier team.

    I'm all for PG playing SF while DG is out but thats just my 2 cents & I sit on the couch....be nice to have a TRUE "shooting" guard. Lance had 3 shots last night in 30 minutes? Nobody is gonna respect that! More looks/shots from Lance?
    I think we should have tried harder to get Courtney Lee. I know he wanted to go to BOS, but had we ponied up an extra 2-3 mil a yr--as opposed to taking a risk on Green and Young, I think we would've been better off. No Lee can't create his own shot, but he's a very good 3pt shooter and defender. The defense wouldn't be leaving him too much.

    Obviously hindsight is 20/20

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    So unless the Pacers reach the ECF, this season will be a bust?
    Yes, is not the reason to play each year to win it all? Anything else is a failure.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by MiaDragon View Post
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    Yes, is not the reason to play each year to win it all? Anything else is a failure.
    Then as a small market team, you may never succeed......

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