EDIT: The truth as always is in the middle, does Danny immediately make us the 5th best team in the NBA again? No. Are we probably 5-4 or 6-3 instead of 3-6? I think so.
Last edited by Trader Joe; 11-15-2012 at 01:47 PM.
Overall, even with Granger, I feel like our offensive problems are that we lack a facilitator (or two). And I have been very vocal about it even when we have been winning.
Danny suffers from our flaws as much as anyone, and his scoring average and shooting % has reflected that the last few years. The JOB teams HAD facilitators, Dunleavy is a player like I'm talking about. Tinsley is a player like that, hell TJ Ford is a player like that. Dunleavy, who I hate as a ball player, is strong in those areas. He is soft as butter and can't defend Betty White, but he can sure as hell handle the ball, make a good pass, get in the lane and facilitate. And Danny played his best next to him. The problem was that they were both SF's and neither could be an effective SG.
So my argument is that a guy like Granger really can't fix it. All we are seeing without him is a magnified version of our flawed team from an offensive standpoint.
Think about it......all these complaints are the exact same things that were said all of last year every time we had a slump or a bad performance. Roy can't play, Paul George lacks a killer instinct, George Hill ain't a PG, Augustin/Collison suck, and so on. And Danny coming back won't erase those things because there is some truth is each one of them.
A legend in your own mind.
This just doesn't make much sense, IMHO.
If the problems of last year are the problems of this year, and last years team was good and this years team is bad, then what explains the difference?
You're arguing that it isn't Danny, yet him not playing is the only significant difference between last year and this year, besides the bench. Or do you just think the entire problem is the bench?
If the problems are the same this year as they were last year, then shouldn't we be able to expect similiar results as opposed to the direct opposite?
Neither you nor Vnlza has been able to provide any reasoning as to why this year is so different than last year, other than simply hanging your hat on last year being an aberration.
Another thing to note....even with Granger out.....if Hibbert didn't revert to his old self instead of the dominant Low Post scorer that he once was....then I can see us doing much better. Keep in mind...we lost at least 3 game where the difference on the offensive end was 3-4 points....the difference in Scoring average between Hibbert last year and this year.
As we have noted......Granger was the guy that kept the offense honest....Hibbert is capable of commanding double-teams ( at least he was last year ). If Hibbert can do the same and regain some attention on the offensive end...then I think that we can become an "average scoring" team instead of the worst scoring Team in the League.
[I]Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.
Teams had no tape on Vogels offense last year. We weren't expected to be that good. Nobody knew exactly what kind of team we were gonna be. We played Orlando without Dwight Howard. We played Miami without Chris Bosh. All those things worked in our favor. We were healthy last year.
I don't think we were that great last year. 5th place is not my goal for the Pacers, it is a title.
I said we could be a good tough middle of the road playoff team this year. Coincidentally that is exactly what we were last year.
But, I am talking about the team going any further than that.
There seems to be a huge segment of the board that thinks that just because you were a good team one year, that you'll automatically progress forward. Too bad that didn't work out for Atlanta or Memphis.
Last edited by Taterhead; 11-15-2012 at 02:27 PM.
[I]Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.
I'll quote you so I don't take you out of context.
So again I ask, who's been arguing that Danny is a facilitator? That's not what people said, nor implying. Danny isn't a facilitator, he's a finisher.
And yet you're arguing that the problems last year are the same exact problems as this year. I'll even quote you again.
So the problems are the exact same as last year, and the only difference this year is that Danny is out, but Danny playing again won't result like last year, because each year is different.Think about it......all these complaints are the exact same things that were said all of last year every time we had a slump or a bad performance. Roy can't play, Paul George lacks a killer instinct, George Hill ain't a PG, Augustin/Collison suck, and so on. And Danny coming back won't erase those things because there is some truth is each one of them.
Last edited by Since86; 11-15-2012 at 02:41 PM.
Since he's been our main offensive option, our offense has NEVER looked THIS BAD. I mean even when we had Earl Freakin Watson as our starting PG, we were still able to score a lot of nights (yes it's because of JOB's bs system) with Danny at the helm. He was a good-great scorer on a bad team. As bad as our team is playing now, we don't even have anyone that can be a good to great scorer on a bad team lol.
We know we need more facilitators, shooters, and shot creators. Nobody can dispute that. If nothing else, then we definitely need a player that can do at least two of the three. Danny is only a shooter and a scorer. We know he won't solve all of our problems, but he's definitely been taken for granted for what he provides this team.
People I am not arguing Danny isn't a good offensive player. I am not arguing that he doesn't help the offense. This thread was originally about our problems as a team in regards to this rough start, and whether or not it's because Danny is out. I think it has something to do with it, mainly that it has thrust Paul George and Roy Hibbert into roles neither are comfortable with.
But, overall I feel like our lack of good guard play will hinder us regardless, no matter how strong Danny returns. And we won't build on last years success by going further into the playoffs. Once you get past the first round you are playing the ELITE teams. You can't get to the conference finals with George Hill and Paul George in the back court. JMO
"Freedom is nothing else but a chance to be better." - Albert Camus
"Appreciation is a wonderful thing. It makes what is excellent in others belong to us as well." - Voltaire
"Everyone's values are defined by what they will tolerate when it is done to others." - William Greider
Well there's the disconnect.
No one is arguing that Danny is a solution good enough to make the Pacers an elite offensive team. Instead the argument is that Danny is a solution that will make the Pacers as good as last years offense.
Getting back to last years level would be a huge positive.