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Thread: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    So, seriously, if everything was the same last year and Danny wasn't that good and the bench wasn't that important, how did we finish where we did? Was it a league-wide conspiracy to get Pacer fans' hopes up so they could be cruelly crushed?

    I'll agree our offense was the same, but it was more effective for a reason - that reason was because we actually had some scoring from the outside from time to time. The fact that we struggled when we had no outside scoring (during Danny's slump at the beginning of the season) was why we went after Barbosa (who was reviled after the playoffs as being someone we shouldn't bring back and yet suddenly is one of the main guys we should have kept).

    People who say we're essentially the same team as last year need to be able to explain exactly what it was that let us finish where we did, because "luck" doesn't cut it.
    Luck and teams with a lot if injured stars, Howard doesn't get hurt the Pacers don't make it that far.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    NOBODY thinks Danny will fix everything. They just appreciate what he brings to the team, and do not feel that PG is doing that good of a job in replacing him.
    It's not even that I feel Paul is doing a "bad job". My point way back when we found out what the deal was with Danny, was that the whole team needed to step up. Not just one guy. Danny was asked to do a lot in Vogel's offense, not in the same way that Lebron is asked to do a lot for Miami, but in his own unique way that Vogel designed specifically for Danny. No one our team has Danny's combo of size, movement without the ball, and outside shooting. That doesn't compare him to Lebron in fact I can probably count the number of times Lebron plays without the ball offensively in Miami on my two hands, it just means that Danny was very important to how this offense was designed and clearly it functioned a lot better last year, so either everyone else just all of a sudden got way worse or the offense was way too dependent on Danny. That doesn't mean Danny is a superstar or even a star, it just means he was important to the offensive design of the Indiana Pacers.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Luck and teams with a lot if injured stars, Howard doesn't get hurt the Pacers don't make it that far.

    This doesn't address the differences in the regular season at all. So please explain those.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    It's not even that I feel Paul is doing a "bad job". My point way back when we found out what the deal was with Danny, was that the whole team needed to step up. Not just one guy. Danny was asked to do a lot in Vogel's offense, not in the same way that Lebron is asked to do a lot for Miami, but in his own unique way that Vogel designed specifically for Danny. No one our team has Danny's combo of size, movement without the ball, and outside shooting. That doesn't compare him to Lebron in fact I can probably count the number of times Lebron plays without the ball offensively in Miami on my two hands, it just means that Danny was very important to how this offense was designed and clearly it functioned a lot better last year, so either everyone else just all of a sudden got way worse or the offense was way too dependent on Danny. That doesn't mean Danny is a superstar or even a star, it just means he was important to the offensive design of the Indiana Pacers.
    Yeah don't get me wrong I think PG is good in his own way. His versatility is important to a team that has some established scoring around him (if he were on OKC or LAL, he'd be an absolute gem) I was just saying he's not able (yet?) to provide all the things DG provides the team with (a lot of which, you mentioned within your previous post)

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I wouldn't except for the fact the Pacers DO completely deflate if teams get a strong series against them. Doesn't have to be at the start of the game - as soon as someone begins a run we can't seem to cope.
    which is the most annoying part of this season so far - last year after the half we would always be the team that would come out strong and have a great 3rd QT - no matter if we were down or up - this year it doesn't matter which quarter it is, there just doesn't seem to be any type of fire and willpower with the team and players...

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    It's not even that I feel Paul is doing a "bad job". My point way back when we found out what the deal was with Danny, was that the whole team needed to step up. Not just one guy. Danny was asked to do a lot in Vogel's offense, not in the same way that Lebron is asked to do a lot for Miami, but in his own unique way that Vogel designed specifically for Danny. No one our team has Danny's combo of size, movement without the ball, and outside shooting. That doesn't compare him to Lebron in fact I can probably count the number of times Lebron plays without the ball offensively in Miami on my two hands, it just means that Danny was very important to how this offense was designed and clearly it functioned a lot better last year, so either everyone else just all of a sudden got way worse or the offense was way too dependent on Danny. That doesn't mean Danny is a superstar or even a star, it just means he was important to the offensive design of the Indiana Pacers.
    What offense are you talking about? The pacers have not had an offense for ever, I don't think I was dreaming when I saw the same horrible offense last year, and the year before and the year before .....

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Yeah don't get me wrong I think PG is good in his own way. His versatility is important to a team that has some established scoring around him (if he were on OKC or LAL, he'd be an absolute gem) I was just saying he's not able (yet?) to provide all the things DG provides the team with (a lot of which, you mentioned within your previous post)
    The only thing Paul George is not providing that Danny does is five more points per game and better shooting from outside that's all, Paul George rebounds better, pass the ball better and plays way better D.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    The only thing Paul George is not providing that Danny does is five more points per game and better shooting from outside that's all, Paul George rebounds better, pass the ball better and plays way better D.
    Paul is worse at handling the ball, he is worse at shooting from mid range, he is worse at shooting from long range, he is worse at moving without the ball, he is worse at setting screens and picks, he is worse at getting to the free throw line, he is worse at finishing on the break or in traffic (Finger roll baby!).

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    What offense are you talking about? The pacers have not had an offense for ever, I don't think I was dreaming when I saw the same horrible offense last year, and the year before and the year before .....
    Our iso style offense is designed to take advantage of a team design that has 5 good players, so on any given night the idea is that 2-3 of those guys will have positional advnatages, in order for this offense to succeed you need spacing, you need at least one guy who can move well without the ball, you need a guy that is good at setting screens off the ball, the guy who does those 3 things better than anyone on our team isn't playing. So the offense is much worse than it was last year, or the year before, or the year before. If you don't like the offense, that's fine, but it doesn't change the fact taht Danny is an important piece of that offense and makes it run much smoother.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    The only thing Paul George is not providing that Danny does is five more points per game and better shooting from outside that's all, Paul George rebounds better, pass the ball better and plays way better D.
    Paul isn't the "threat" that Danny is. Not even close. Paul isnt getting to the FT line like Danny. Paul doesn't give the other players on our team confidence the way Danny can. Paul isn't as clutch as Danny--which may have helped in some of these close games.

    I'm not hating on PG, like I said earlier, his versatility is important.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Granger is not that good.
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    Granger is THAT GOOD, when you look at the rest of our offensive players. Granger was tactically a very important piece of the Pacer puzzle. Now we should be better than we are even without Danny, but that doesn't change how important he was. It just illustrates how bad everyone else has been.
    Overall, Granger isn't that good....if you are looking at him on a standalone basis...when compared to other top Tier Players. But to the Pacers ( and to Trader Joe's point ), it is clear that Granger is "Good"......as in "Good" for the Team and what he means to how the offense operates given the makeup of the Starting lineup.

    The best way to look at Granger is his value to this Team in particular.....his value to other Teams may not be anything more than the "Robin" on any other Playoff Team with an actual Franchise Player.....but to the Pacers....he's the best that we got when it comes to commanding attention on the offensive end......something that we are lacking now ( until Hibbert figures it out ). In the end....Granger may be considered "Robin" to other Teams....but to us....he's our "Batman".
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Paul is worse at handling the ball
    Disagree, he is way better than Danny.

    he is worse at shooting from mid range
    maybe.

    he is worse at shooting from long range
    He was better than Danny last year but so far Paul George is sucking at this so I agree for now.

    he is worse at moving without the ball
    It's not like Danny is some kind of gazelle ala Dunleavy running around, maybe Vogel doesn't make Paul George move as much on offense? have you thought about that?

    he is worse at setting screens and picks
    I'm not sure how you know this, the guard on the Pacers don't set that many screens.

    he is worse at getting to the free throw line, he is worse at finishing on the break or in traffic (Finger roll baby!).
    Yes he needs to get better at getting to the the free throw line but let's not go crazy into thinking that Danny is somehow a great finisher, the guy is known for missing easy layups for not been able or not wanting to dunk on the run, they are both bad at it.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    The only thing worse than the Pacers right now, is this forum. Some seem almost be happy we are falling a part. See you all in a month or 2 when it calms down some.
    "Just look at the flowers ........ BANG"

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Paul's mid range game being worse than Danny's is not a maybe.

    As far as Paul not being asked to move off the ball as much as Danny, hell yes he is not asked as much, because he's not as good at it! And it's one of the reasons we aren't as good! Green has actually been the one moving wihtout the ball on offense a lot of the time.

    Defenders don't pay as much attention to Gerald, Paul, or Lance as they did to Danny. It doesn't make him a superstar. It just makes him a good offensive player that has earned the respect of NBA coaches.
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 11-15-2012 at 12:48 PM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Paul isn't the "threat" that Danny is. Not even close. Paul isnt getting to the FT line like Danny. Paul doesn't give the other players on our team confidence the way Danny can. Paul isn't as clutch as Danny--which may have helped in some of these close games.

    I'm not hating on PG, like I said earlier, his versatility is important.
    Yes Paul George is not as good as Danny yet but to me the drop off is not as great as many of you think, now the drop off from Paul George at the 2 to Green and Young is as big as the Grand Canyon, there is were the problem is.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Granger is THAT GOOD, when you look at the rest of our offensive players. Granger was tactically a very important piece of the Pacer puzzle. Now we should be better than we are even without Danny, but that doesn't change how important he was. It just illustrates how bad everyone else has been.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    West looks old to me I don't think he is going to get any better, I expect him to stay where he is right now, maybe his % goes up a bit but I still don't see it as a reason to say that the Pacers are somehow back into elite teams.

    And also teams already know how to shut both guys down, they know how to push Roy out of position and they know how to remove the West ISO's.
    Prior to this last game....West has been playing as I expected....if anything, he was the only Player ( outside of Hansbrough and GH ) that brought it every night. I can see what you are saying when it comes to him looking "old and tired"....but this could simply be due to fatigue. Because the 2nd unit has been atrocious since the start of the season....Vogel has been heavily relying on the Starting 5 to play more minutes. I agree that West may look tired and worn down....but he's also playing far more minutes than he should be.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Paul's mid range game being worse than Danny's is not a maybe.

    As far as Paul not being asked to move off the ball as much as Danny, hell yes he is not asked as much, because he's not as good at it! And it's one of the reasons we aren't as good! Green has actually been the one moving wihtout the ball on offense a lot of the time.

    Defenders don't pay as much attention to Gerald, Paul, or Lance as they did to Danny. It doesn't make him a superstar. It just makes him a good offensive player that has earned the respect of NBA coaches.
    To add to this, whether you like it or not Vnzla, Danny is a guy with a 25 PPG season on his resume, you may not respect that, but I guarantee you NBA coaches have. Now that respect is probably going to change with this knee injury. I think they will make Danny prove he can score again, and I don't know if that will happen.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Right now here's what I see our biggest problem as. We have one guy in the starting lineup that can actually play the up tempo/half tempo mix we kind of played last year, Hill. PG and Lance or PG and Green are really better suited to up tempo, and Roy and West are really better suited to half court. Danny was another guy who can play both ways, but when it is just Hill the difference is startling.

    In half court, our perimeter guys really struggle, PG can't beat his man off the dribble, Lance can, but often times settles for a bad mid range jumper instead of finishing the attack.

    West and Hibbert flat out get completely gassed when we try to push the pace at all it seems like.
    Of the remaining Wing Players....which are capable of playing in a Half-Court offense?

    Would it benefit the GH, West, Hibbert if we switched up the rotations to run more of a half-court offense at times and then switch gears to play more up-tempo with DJ/Lance/PG/Hans/Mahinmi?

    Is it possible to run 2 different types of offense given the lineups used?
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Of the remaining Wing Players....which are capable of playing in a Half-Court offense?
    If you consider Hill a wing, then him and only him for the moment. Lance has the ability to beat poeple off the dribble, but hsi tendency is to shoot as soon as his guy gets beat instead of finishing the play.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Overall, Granger isn't that good....if you are looking at him on a standalone basis...when compared to other top Tier Players. But to the Pacers ( and to Trader Joe's point ), it is clear that Granger is "Good"......as in "Good" for the Team and what he means to how the offense operates given the makeup of the Starting lineup.

    The best way to look at Granger is his value to this Team in particular.....his value to other Teams may not be anything more than the "Robin" on any other Playoff Team with an actual Franchise Player.....but to the Pacers....he's the best that we got when it comes to commanding attention on the offensive end......something that we are lacking now ( until Hibbert figures it out ). In the end....Granger may be considered "Robin" to other Teams....but to us....he's our "Batman".
    And that is why this team is just no that good, if he is your Batman you are pretty much screwed.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    When you start to think about all the things Granger is the "best at" on this team on offense, it gets a little daunting.

    He is the best long ranger shooter, he is the best mid ranger shooter, he maybe the best finisher in traffic, he is the best guy at switching between half court and up tempo, he is the best guy off the basketball (both looking to score and looking to help people out), he might be the best person on the team at setting picks and screens.

    It didn't become as clear til you see the dumpster fire Pacers offense without him, but yeah....
    Who knew that Danny Granger = Peyton Manning?

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    And that is why this team is just no that good, if he is your Batman you are pretty much screwed.
    Are you saying that Granger isn't a Franchise Player?

    Cuz we all know that he isn't one. That is not what any of us are saying. We also know that we don't really have a Player that is considered a Franchise Level Player ( like LeDecision, Wade, Kyrie or Kobe ).

    Granger is the closest thing we have on our Team to "Batman". Unfortunately....PG ( as Dick Grayson ) isn't doing a good job of putting on the Cape and Cowl trying to pretend that he is the "Batman" ( I know...poor Comic Book analogy ).

    We simply do not have anyone on this Team that draws as much offensive attention to allow the rest of the Starting Lineup to score the way that they did last year. PG maybe trying to fill that role....but I don't think that he has it in him. The closest one that should be drawing the attention on the offensive end is Hibbert....but he appears to be "wilting under the pressure". My hope is that he starts to get his confidence back and that he starts doing what he did last year....draw double-teams and then pass it out to someone that can score.

    The whole point that many of us here are trying to point out is that we know that Granger isn't a top 15 Player in the League that should be leading ANY Team as the cornerstone of any Franchise. What we are saying is that the role that he played on this Team on the offensive end APPEARS to be the most important one given the way this Team is made up....not that he should be put on the same pedestal as LeDecision or Kobe.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    • Lance needs to shoot the ball more. In fact seeing as how he has the highest field goal % of any of our wings I would suggest we start looking to let him get his shot more often if we can.
    Right now Lance is doing a good job of showing that he's learned to be a team player. Even with things falling apart, he's still deferring to the vets and not been tempted to "freelance" and try to take over games by himself. I think that's what Frank wanted to see. So I expect Frank will start giving Lance the green light more often. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon and for the rest of the season.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    Who knew that Danny Granger = Peyton Manning?
    I didn't design the offense so take it up with Frank.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    if he is your Batman you are pretty much screwed.
    Seriously? When we had the 5th best record in the NBA last year, you felt screwed? Seriously?

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