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Thread: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    And as far as making adjustments. There isn't a whole lot you can do when your post players are missing the open shots they do get and your backcourt isn't getting any production from the outside to make helping defenders worry about getting burned.

    How can you make adjustments to get inside looks when the defense is having a pow-wow in the middle every time down the floor?

    The biggest adjustment the Pacers need to make is to start hitting some damn shots.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    George Hill isn't going to consistently drop 30. 12-18? Yes. Danny will drop 30 and talk trash while he does it lol. You're right, that's what's missing from this team. And that's why Danny's value is so high--to THIS team. His game is suited perfectly for the inside/out game that Vogel wants to play, and then his intensity/"swag" gets other guys going.

    The lack of confidence/intensity has been missing all season. I think that Danny brought a lot of that out of our team.
    That's sort of what I'm saying too. I think a lot of people are taking "This team misses Danny" to mean "Danny is the best player EVA", no, not that at all. He just happened to be a very good fit for the Pacers. Which is why last year's team was so cool, they were the ultimate "games are not played on paper" or "on a stat sheet" team.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I'm never sure where things like this come from. If they DIDN'T give a damn we wouldn't be talking about their body language showing they are down and defeated, we'd be complaining about them laughing and joking while they get their rear ends kicked.

    They clearly give a damn.
    I know they want to get this turned around mentally. Obviously no one's happy with this garbage, but at the same time, no one's looking like they want to improve. Things guys lived off of last season are what they aren't doing this season. No one is moving around offensively, no one's being aggressive. The team is simply giving away points that could've won us the majority of the games we've played.

    I hope this mental frustration converts to improvement and desire on the court very soon because this team is better than this.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    And as far as making adjustments. There isn't a whole lot you can do when your post players are missing the open shots they do get and your backcourt isn't getting any production from the outside to make helping defenders worry about getting burned.

    How can you make adjustments to get inside looks when the defense is having a pow-wow in the middle every time down the floor?

    The biggest adjustment the Pacers need to make is to start hitting some damn shots.
    Actually, I think the biggest adjustment needed is to pick up the pace. They're playing at a much slower pace than last year's team and for some reason they seem to be getting slower and slower each game.

    The team without Danny really needs to get into their offense quicker and give the defense less time to set up or go into a zone against them.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    Actually, I think the biggest adjustment needed is to pick up the pace. They're playing at a much slower pace than last year's team and for some reason they seem to be getting slower and slower each game.

    The team without Danny really needs to get into their offense quicker and give the defense less time to set up or go into a zone against them.
    IF we did that, we'd almost have to change-up the lineups a bit. It may sound silly, but I'd almost put either Roy or West (ROY!!) on the bench, and have them run with the 2nd unit, while having Mahinmi play with the starters. Mahinmi can run the floor, and hit the open 17 ft J all day, so he'd work well with a high low offense. He doesn't need the ball offensively, and is pretty good defensively.

    Lance, Paul and George would benefit from the faster tempo. (as would DJ, Green, and Tyler for that matter)

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    The problem with the Pacers is pretty simple and has been the same over the last 6-7 years at least. Our guards are the worst group in the league of all the playoff teams. It's the main reason I have wanted to trade Granger for the last few years now. We have to get a guard who can create offense, and we need a good one. All of our guards outside of Lance have NO GAME off the dribble. George Hill, Paul George and DJ Augustin will all settle for the jumpshot if you give it up, and none of them are good enough shooters to be effective doing that on a consistent basis.

    Danny Granger's weakness is creating offense. He needs a good group of guards as much as anyone else. Not saying he doesn't do things well and wouldn't be a plus if he could play, but he's not that big of a difference maker. If he's the reason our team can't beat the Toronto Raptors or Milwaukee Bucks, then how good are we anyways.

    I think what this year is showing is that the team hsa hit it's peak as constructed. I don't doubt that they can get some things together and improve as the year goes on becoming a middle of the road tough playoff team, but the sky is not the limit with this group.

    Roy Hibbert was not paid to score 20 PPG. He is not a #1 scoring option in the post, I have said it for years. But people criticize him like he his. He is our most important defensive player, and our defense isn't the problem, he is doing his job well. If you replaced him with Kaman you would see us become an average defensive team instantly. David West might as well be 6' on the defensive end, he can't protect the basket and paired with Kaman it would be ugly. He needs a group of guards that can command the attention of the defense so he can pick his spots.

    Paul George is a very good all around SF. I have also been saying that for years. He is not and never will be a scorer because he clearly doesn't want to be. And he damn sure isn't a guard. The wing positions are NOT interchangeable despite the bs that people say on here all the time. A guard needs to be able to handle the ball, and he can't. He needs to be a finisher, not a facilitator.

    David West is not, and has never been a BAMF. It's stupid to claim he is. He averaged 12-6 last year. You can be scared of his scowl and bald head all you want, but I promise you a really good PF in the NBA won't be. He is a good post scorer, but that's it. He isn't good at anything else. He can't rebound consistently, he can't defend the rim, he can't defend P&R. and when his shot ain't falling he as useless as Josh McRoberts on a bad day.

    You can't out execute everyone all the time. It puts way too much stress on your defense to be incredible. You need that one guy who can beat great defense, and we just don't have it. We can either waste a few more years with all these ridiculous hopes, or we can be aggressive and go out and assemble a better, more versatile basketball team. As constructed we are limited and predictable. You saw it last year in the playoffs. Once we got Miamis attention, they completely outclassed us 3 games in a row without their best big man, point blank. And guess what, they are even better this year, the gap has widened furthur.

    This team is still a long ways away and this year, they need to use David West's expiring contract to add more young pieces to the core of Hibbert, George, Hill and Stephenson. And next year they need to do the same with Danny Granger. Believe it if you want.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    The problem with the Pacers is pretty simple and has been the same over the last 6-7 years at least. Our guards are the worst group in the league of all the playoff teams. It's the main reason I have wanted to trade Granger for the last few years now. We have to get a guard who can create offense, and we need a good one. All of our guards outside of Lance have NO GAME off the dribble. George Hill, Paul George and DJ Augustin will all settle for the jumpshot if you give it up, and none of them are good enough shooters to be effective doing that on a consistent basis.

    Danny Granger's weakness is creating offense. He needs a good group of guards as much as anyone else. Not saying he doesn't do things well and wouldn't be a plus if he could play, but he's not that big of a difference maker. If he's the reason our team can't beat the Toronto Raptors or Milwaukee Bucks, then how good are we anyways.

    I think what this year is showing is that the team hsa hit it's peak as constructed. I don't doubt that they can get some things together and improve as the year goes on becoming a middle of the road tough playoff team, but the sky is not the limit with this group.

    Roy Hibbert was not paid to score 20 PPG. He is not a #1 scoring option in the post, I have said it for years. But people criticize him like he his. He is our most important defensive player, and our defense isn't the problem, he is doing his job well. If you replaced him with Kaman you would see us become an average defensive team instantly. David West might as well be 6' on the defensive end, he can't protect the basket and paired with Kaman it would be ugly. He needs a group of guards that can command the attention of the defense so he can pick his spots.

    Paul George is a very good all around SF. I have also been saying that for years. He is not and never will be a scorer because he clearly doesn't want to be. And he damn sure isn't a guard. The wing positions are NOT interchangeable despite the bs that people say on here all the time. A guard needs to be able to handle the ball, and he can't. He needs to be a finisher, not a facilitator.

    David West is not, and has never been a BAMF. It's stupid to claim he is. He averaged 12-6 last year. You can be scared of his scowl and bald head all you want, but I promise you a really good PF in the NBA won't be. He is a good post scorer, but that's it. He isn't good at anything else. He can't rebound consistently, he can't defend the rim, he can't defend P&R. and when his shot ain't falling he as useless as Josh McRoberts on a bad day.

    You can't out execute everyone all the time. It puts way too much stress on your defense to be incredible. You need that one guy who can beat great defense, and we just don't have it. We can either waste a few more years with all these ridiculous hopes, or we can be aggressive and go out and assemble a better, more versatile basketball team. As constructed we are limited and predictable. You saw it last year in the playoffs. Once we got Miamis attention, they completely outclassed us 3 games in a row without their best big man, point blank. And guess what, they are even better this year, the gap has widened furthur.

    This team is still a long ways away and this year, they need to use David West's expiring contract to add more young pieces to the core of Hibbert, George, Hill and Stephenson. And next year they need to do the same with Danny Granger. Believe it if you want.
    Hit the head on the nail with this one. I don't agree with trading Danny next year, but it may be a case SOMEWHAT similar to Peyton Manning and the Colts. You don't want to see your fave player leave, but it may be the best thing for the player and the franchise.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    I don't disagree with anything you say Taterhead, though I do think Danny is very important to the how team is built. I absolutely agree that Hibbert, Hill, George and Stephenson are alright to stay and can work, but we need to find a good scoring guard somehow and we need a real athlete in the front court who has a mid range jumper.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    I see what your saying vnzla, but i "kinda" disagree. Danny is good & would be a decent 2nd, great 3rd option on a contending team but he is VERY VALUABLE to the P's. It's very obvious right now. I'm not saying DG is on LB or KD's level or anything close to that but more of how much his value means to this "team".

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    This team is still a long ways away and this year, they need to use David West's expiring contract to add more young pieces to the core of Hibbert, George, Hill and Stephenson. And next year they need to do the same with Danny Granger. Believe it if you want.
    If they continue to flounder and if Danny misses the entire season, they should just trade David West at the trade deadline and try to get a young player and/or a draft pick preferably from a team that owns a potential lottery team's pick. Maybe Oklahoma City would send up Perry Jones or Jeremy Lamb and one of Houston's draft picks for him.

    I don't think they'll continue this slide so all of that is really a moot point.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by jtroub8 View Post
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    I see what your saying vnzla, but i "kinda" disagree. Danny is good & would be a decent 2nd, great 3rd option on a contending team but he is VERY VALUABLE to the P's. It's very obvious right now. I'm not saying DG is on LB or KD's level or anything close to that but more of how much his value means to this "team".
    I think that if the Pacers front office if instead of signing Green and Young had signed Crawford or Mayo nobody would be missing Danny as much, the issue is not that the team misses Danny, the issue is that the Pacers have a bunch of scrubs to replace him.

    In reality Paul George is doing a pretty good job in replacing Danny's numbers plus he is playing better D and rebounding at a higher rate than Danny, people love to think about the Danny of four years ago while forgetting that his productivity has been declining every year, last year was bad other than one month were he found a way to make his numbers look decent.

    Right now the problem is not replacing Danny but replacing Paul George at small guard.

    Edit: I'm not saying that signing either player could make the Pacers contenders either, their issues are deeper than missing an scorer.
    Last edited by vnzla81; 11-15-2012 at 11:38 AM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Danny did a lot more than stats to make the offense run smoother. That's pretty evident at this point. Now maybe that's a failure in offensive design and not an endorsement of Danny, but it's true either way.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    I don't disagree with anything you say Taterhead, though I do think Danny is very important to the how team is built. I absolutely agree that Hibbert, Hill, George and Stephenson are alright to stay and can work, but we need to find a good scoring guard somehow and we need a real athlete in the front court who has a mid range jumper.
    I'm not saying he's not. He's the guy that can hit shots any team will give to you, and that certainly helps when you can't get a better one. But at the end of the day he's a streaky low percentage field goal shooter and depending on him to fix it is not smart, JMO.

    I just think our approach is flawed and as long as we depend on him to do things that aren't his strengths, we'll never get where we want to be. You just can't be the San Antonio Spurs without Manu Ginobli and Tony Parker in the back court. That is what we are missing, is the guard play. Bigs rely on the guards, and the shooters do too. And we either don't have them, or Frank Vogels offense puts handcuffs on them.

    The problem with Vogel offense I see is it allows the defense to dictate what we do and I think it's a huge problem. The team approach where you don't know who's going to hurt you, works both ways. We don't know who's going to help us either. So how do you gameplan when that's the case? A great basketball team flows like water, but they can also pound you like a hammer when they need to.


    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    If they continue to flounder and if Danny misses the entire season, they should just trade David West at the trade deadline and try to get a young player and/or a draft pick preferably from a team that owns a potential lottery team's pick. Maybe Oklahoma City would send up Perry Jones or Jeremy Lamb and one of Houston's draft picks for him.

    I don't think they'll continue this slide so all of that is really a moot point.
    That is the perfect trade with the perfect partner. West would fill a huge need for them with his post scoring as their 3rd big, and Lamb fits our needs and could be huge for us in a few years. If we could get a descent pick to boot, it is the kind of trade that can vault us to legit contender status
    Last edited by Taterhead; 11-15-2012 at 11:57 AM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Danny did a lot more than stats to make the offense run smoother. That's pretty evident at this point. Now maybe that's a failure in offensive design and not an endorsement of Danny, but it's true either way.
    Explain? I remember that the offense looked the same last year with him on the team, the offense has been bad for a long long time with or without Danny.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Explain? I remember that the offense looked the same last year with him on the team, the offense has been bad for a long long time with or without Danny.
    You think the offense looked the same? What how is that even possible? We averaged 10 more PPG, we had better movement. Roy and West got the ball in better spots because Danny spread the D. George was able to just be a spot up jump shooter and get easy buckets in transition. The offense this year looks like a skeletal version of the offense last year at best. It is the same system at its core, but it is not operating in any way, shape or form close to the same efficiency. Last year we also did a great job on the offensive rebounds, one of the reason this may have been the case was because Danny requires his man to stay home, it's harder to help on the defensive boards. Watch how Lance and Paul are defended. Their guys cheat off them all the damn time. Saying Paul is "replacing Danny's stats", well that may be true, but he is not replacing Danny's impact. The team is a lot easier to defend offensively without Danny. It's not an excuse, it's just true, it's an indictment of the coaching staff, the front office, and the rest of the players just as much as it is a support to Danny being a pretty dang good player.

    Danny got to the free throw line more than anyone else on the team, 5 free throw attempts a game that are basically gone. Just poof. Paul is not replacing those right now. Paul is getting to the free throw line a whopping 1.9 times a game! That is a huge, huge detriment to the offense.

    Stop looking at just the fact that Paul is averaging 14 and 8 and saying that is replacing Danny because it's not. It's not even close. Even with Danny's bad shooting last year, Paul is doing worse. Paul is turning the ball over more than Danny did.

    But the free throws are a pretty big deal. That is pretty much 4 PPG that has just gone up in smoke. That's not even accounting the differences in Paul and Danny's game. Danny could play offense without the basketball in a half court set, Paul cannot. Paul can barely play offense with the basketball in a half court set. And I'm not trying to tip on Paul I like his impact on the team, but syaing the offense looks the same as last year? No way, it's just not even close, it's not nearly as open, it's way more clogged up. It's like if you took our offense last year and stuck it in a freezer and then put it in a blender. Yeah it's the same bits and pieces in general, but they aren't nearly the same.
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 11-15-2012 at 11:57 AM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    I just think our approach is flawed and as long as we depend on him to do things that aren't his strengths
    Huh?

    The things that we rely on Danny to do, like outside shooting, are most definitely his strengths. That's why he's so important, because what he does do, he does very well.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I think that if the Pacers front office if instead of signing Green and Young had signed Crawford or Mayo nobody would be missing Danny as much, the issue is not that the team misses Danny, the issue is that the Pacers have a bunch of scrubs to replace him.

    In reality Paul George is doing a pretty good job in replacing Danny's numbers plus he is playing better D and rebounding at a higher rate than Danny, people love to think about the Danny of four years ago while forgetting that his productivity has been declining every year, last year was bad other than one month were he found a way to make his numbers look decent.

    Right now the problem is not replacing Danny but replacing Paul George at small guard.

    Edit: I'm not saying that signing either player could make the Pacers contenders either, their issues are deeper than missing an scorer.
    Paul can't replace Danny's presence, shooting, confidence, nor his clutch shot ability. Teams are daring PG to shoot right now, whereas teams rarely come off Danny within a spot up situation.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Huh?

    The things that we rely on Danny to do, like outside shooting, are most definitely his strengths. That's why he's so important, because what he does do, he does very well.
    Some people are expecting him to facilitate offense. He is a finisher. He won't come in and turn our offense around, JMO. He will help.

    I think this early season struggle has shined a huge light on our flaws as a team.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    You think the offense looked the same? What how is that even possible? We averaged 10 more PPG, we had better movement. Roy and West got the ball in better spots because Danny spread the D. George was able to just be a spot up jump shooter and get easy buckets in transition. The offense this year looks like a skeletal version of the offense last year at best. It is the same system at its core, but it is not operating in any way, shape or form close to the same efficiency. Last year we also did a great job on the offensive rebounds, one of the reason this may have been the case was because Danny requires his man to stay home, it's harder to help on the defensive boards. Watch how Lance and Paul are defended. Their guys cheat off them all the damn time. Saying Paul is "replacing Danny's stats", well that may be true, but he is not replacing Danny's impact. The team is a lot easier to defend offensively without Danny. It's not an excuse, it's just true, it's an indictment of the coaching staff, the front office, and the rest of the players just as much as it is a support to Danny being a pretty dang good player.

    Danny got to the free throw line more than anyone else on the team, 5 free throw attempts a game that are basically gone. Just poof. Paul is not replacing those right now. Paul is getting to the free throw line a whopping 1.9 times a game! That is a huge, huge detriment to the offense.

    Stop looking at just the fact that Paul is averaging 14 and 8 and saying that is replacing Danny because it's not. It's not even close. Even with Danny's bad shooting last year, Paul is doing worse. Paul is turning the ball over more than Danny did.

    But the free throws are a pretty big deal. That is pretty much 4 PPG that has just gone up in smoke. That's not even accounting the differences in Paul and Danny's game. Danny could play offense without the basketball in a half court set, Paul cannot. Paul can barely play offense with the basketball in a half court set. And I'm not trying to tip on Paul I like his impact on the team, but syaing the offense basically looks the same as last year? I mean, maybe if you're applying a pretty liberal use of the word basically.
    If I didn't know about who you are talking about I could think that you are talking about Lebron or something, Danny is(was) good but he is not that good, him jacking up shots and shooting under .400 from the field doesn't help as much as you think, there were many games last year were he was a huge negative to the team and was still jacking up shots.

    Regarding the offense, yes the offense is the same cluster s***, maybe they scored more points it was the same bs.

    I guess I'm going to try to leave you guys alone into thinking that if Danny was here everything would be OK, if that make you guys feel better inside so be it.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    Some people are expecting him to facilitate offense. He is a finisher. He won't come in and turn our offense around, JMO. He will help.

    I think this early season struggle has shined a huge light on our flaws as a team.
    Who? I think what people are saying, and what you're taking it as, are two seperate things.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    If I didn't know about who you are talking about I could think that you are talking about Lebron or something, Danny is(was) good but he is not that good, him jacking up shots and shooting under .400 from the field doesn't help as much as you think, there were many games last year were he was a huge negative to the team and was still jacking up shots.

    Regarding the offense, yes the offense is the same cluster s***, maybe they scored more points it was the same bs.

    I guess I'm going to try to leave you guys alone into thinking that if Danny was here everything would be OK, if that make you guys feel better inside so be it.
    Where have I ever said that everything would be OK? Where did I ever compare Danny to Lebron James? Do you ever just have a discussion without flying completely off into La La Land where you just overstate everything?

    You made the statement that Paul is pretty much replacing Danny. I told you, that you are completely wrong. He doesn't move as well off the ball, he doesn't get to the free throw line as well, he turns the ball over, his defender does not treat him the same way Danny was treated. And you want to keep harping on Danny's percentages, Paul is shooting even worse than Danny did!

    But all you can come back to me with is that I sound like I'm describing Lebron James, and that I'm just making myself feel good inside.

    You always demand for everyone to back up their own position, but you never back yours. Pretty much ever. You just make outlandish comments.

    So please tell me, how is Paul George replacing Danny Granger on offense? Not Lebron James, Danny Granger. Why are we even talking about Lebron James? Even in a world where Danny is as talented as Lebron they have completely different skill sets and styles. If anything the way we are trying to use Paul is like a way crappier version of Lebron.

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  28. #72
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    If I didn't know about who you are talking about I could think that you are talking about Lebron or something, Danny is(was) good but he is not that good, him jacking up shots and shooting under .400 from the field doesn't help as much as you think, there were many games last year were he was a huge negative to the team and was still jacking up shots.

    Regarding the offense, yes the offense is the same cluster s***, maybe they scored more points it was the same bs.

    I guess I'm going to try to leave you guys alone into thinking that if Danny was here everything would be OK, if that make you guys feel better inside so be it.
    So, seriously, if everything was the same last year and Danny wasn't that good and the bench wasn't that important, how did we finish where we did? Was it a league-wide conspiracy to get Pacer fans' hopes up so they could be cruelly crushed?

    I'll agree our offense was the same, but it was more effective for a reason - that reason was because we actually had some scoring from the outside from time to time. The fact that we struggled when we had no outside scoring (during Danny's slump at the beginning of the season) was why we went after Barbosa (who was reviled after the playoffs as being someone we shouldn't bring back and yet suddenly is one of the main guys we should have kept).

    People who say we're essentially the same team as last year need to be able to explain exactly what it was that let us finish where we did, because "luck" doesn't cut it.
    BillS

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    Member Since86's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I guess I'm going to try to leave you guys alone into thinking that if Danny was here everything would be OK, if that make you guys feel better inside so be it.
    No one has argued that Danny will fix everything. Instead of purposfully distorting what people say, you should stick to what is actually said. You have a very bad habit of taking pretty much everything to the extreme.

  30. #74
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    No one has argued that Danny will fix everything. Instead of purposfully distorting what people say, you should stick to what is actually said. You have a very bad habit of taking pretty much everything to the extreme.
    Yes and it's maddeningly frustrating after I put time into a post to explain my position, at his request, to get back crap that basically amounts to "Sounds like you're describing Lebron James, whatever makes you feel warm and fuzzy"

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Fear the Deer

    NOBODY thinks Danny will fix everything. They just appreciate what he brings to the team, and do not feel that PG is doing that good of a job in replacing him.

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