Also for those that don't know Hill and Roy can only be traded after June 15th.
@basketballtalk: Raptors set record for futility in win over Pacers http://t.co/soeioYJG #PBT #NBAJust a hideous display of basketball in Indiana on Tuesday, but somebody had to win, and it was the Toronto Raptors.
After suffering a tough loss in triple-overtime just the night before, the Raptors will take the win any way they could get it. But the team set a record for futility in the process.
It was a good thing that Toronto somehow carried an 11-point lead into the fourth quarter, because they only managed to score five points in the final period. It was the lowest fourth-quarter point total by a winning team in the shot clock era, or since the 1955-56 season (via ESPN Stats & Info).
That’s 56 years.
Kurt Helin broke doen some of the numbers in our recap post — In the second half, Toronto shot just 6-of-33 from the field and committed seven turnovers. The fourth quarter was particularly brutal, one where the Raptors went 1-of-15 from the field, while committing five turnovers and getting outrebounded by seven.
And yet, they still won.
The Pacers are a disaster since Danny Granger went down with injury, and with Roy Hibbert playing like Jamaal Magloire reincarnated — you know, one questionable All-Star selection, followed by many seasons of playing nowhere near that level — Indiana is going to be doing a lot of losing.
But dropping this one to the Raptors, after they had Andrea Bargnani and Jose Calderon each playing over 48 minutes the night before, and DeMar DeRozan playing a whopping 60 — well, that’s got to be way more embarrassing than the record-setting fourth quarter from Toronto, despite its place in the history books.
I wouldn't want to trade Hill anyways, he's playing great, and if he had better options around him, he'd be a good closer for this team.
I agree that West (and maybe PG) are our most attractive trade assets. Though I have many, I don't want to throw around any trade ideas. But we definitely need someone that is either a really good/consistent shooter (ala Kevin Martin) or a ball handling scoring type of guard (ala Monta). Those types of players would definitely help the pacers perimeter offense.
Just my two cents
Is anyone ever going to call out Vnzla on the flip flop that he was one of the people driving the get rid of DC train? And even for a while was driving the bring Augustin in trade because he's a lot better than DC?
No offense Vnzla, but it's very humorous to me how hard you are on the bench now, even though you pretty much hated DC while he was here and you were always hyping up Augustin.
I was also one that hated DC while he was here and thought DJ would be an improvement as well. Lol, but DC NEVER looked as good here as he has with Dal. If he did, we would've never brought in Hill, he never would have lost his starting spot to injury, and we wouldn't have looked to trade him during the off-season.
Obviously DAL is a better fit for DC, but what compounded the problem was bringing in DJ to replace him. We obviously needed someone that was a better scorer/shooter as opposed to someone that is good at setting up other individuals.
Collison was always a very good, efficient scorer while he was here.
Our coach is to blame for why our point guards are used the way they are when it comes to passing.
DC was an efficient scorer, but averaging 10 and 11 ppg isnt exactly a "good" scorer.
DC in DAL looks a lot like DC in NO which is not the DC we saw for most of the time here in IND. Like you said, the coaching and the system have as much to do with it then anything. I prob would have actually liked DC when he was here had he been able to play the game the way he was in NO and has in DAL.
I honestly can't complain about DC's time here at all. I thought how he was used last year until we hit the playoffs was a joke. As a second year player here on a team in transition he averaged 13 and 5 while shooting 45%. I thought that was pretty good production.
which coaches. How far back are we going to go in blaming coaches for our ex-players.
I'll admit Augustin has been terrible and he IMO has been by far the biggest disappointment of the new guys, but the suggestions that seem to be growing that Collison was better than he is are just wrong. Collison is a very flawed player, he had to be traded, as it is very difficult to move a former starter to the bench.
Last edited by Unclebuck; 11-14-2012 at 02:35 PM.
Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.
This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.
I think the saddest thing is that the team is waiting on Granger and in turn some on this board are waiting for Granger to return like some 23 year old do it all superstar player-coach who descends upon arenas with angel's wings and hands out multiple blu-ray compilations of his game winning shots to fans.
The real Granger didn't even have surgery. Why? I do not know. What I do know is that there isn't even a guarantee that his injection will fix the problem. You all could be waiting for Santa Claus.
If the people using the Granger clutch (including Vogel, pathetic as it is) still feel the way that they do, understand that they will continue to trot out that built in excuse for at least the next three months, and possibly the entire season.
So basically, if Vogel isn't going to accept accountability, then he's pretty much saying nothing that happens over the next 3 months means anything.
Then he regressed to 10 and just under 5 assists per game on 44%. Not bad numbers no, but those also aren't "the PG of the future" type of production at all. And this was without mentioning his lack of vision, struggles to get the ball into the post, average at best defense.
If he could handle being a backup PG, he would've been great on this team. BUT he wanted to be the starter and the FO wanted Hill to be the starter.
I don't know what you need to call me out for? Yes I wanted DJ as the starter over DC last year, that doesn't mean that I don't think DC is a better bench player, to me DJ is a better starter than bench player and DC is a better bench player than starter at least here.
By the way that does not mean that I'm not disappointed with what DJ is giving us, out of the 4 bench players they brought here I expected him to be better than the other 3 and so far he has been garbage, I would also like to ad that the coaches have some blame on this, they keep trying to run the same offensive system they run with the starters instead of an up tempo offense were DJ can be pretty good at, right now they keep running Mahinmi post up plays and ISO's lol.
DC is a better basketball player than DJ period.
IMO, DC was a big part of the culture change on this team. he played hard and he played every night. no he was not a perfect player, but George Hill at point guard is? I think the thing that is pissing me off the most right now is that DC and Hill in the backcourt intrigues me a hell of a lot more than what we are currently working with, maybe that was our mistake.
Last edited by Trader Joe; 11-14-2012 at 02:57 PM.
"Every time I pitched it was like throwing gasoline on a fire. Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw!"
- Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh
DJ is a rhythm player. He's used to playing 30 min a game and setting other players up, controlling the flow of the game, etc. DC is a sparkplug you can get instant offense from. They are two completely different players. I liked the DJ in Charlotte because he was the ultimate team player, and he kept his poise despite the horrendous work environment around him.
The problem right now is you have a starter, a 30 min a game player trying to adapt to a limited role of about 10-15 min a game. He's just not used to it, he's not comfortable and you can tell. He's making passes he usually wouldn't make to compensate for his lack of playing time. He's pressing and he's thinking too much when he's shooting.
As crazy as it sounds considering how awful he's played, DJ needs more minutes if you want him to play better. I'd probably cut some of Lance or Green's minutes and shift Hill to the two, playing DJ and Hill together. But for some reason, this coaching staff insists that Hill is solely a point guard. I guess they want to recapture that chemistry from last season, but that's long gone now.
Maybe the Pacers should have kept bring HIll off the bench then. he was pretty happy in that role. I think it was a mistake to make Hill the starter when DC came back. Fine if you want to do it in the offseason, but I think it really forced our hand to do it how we did in season, it is a fairly unwritten rule in sports that a starter should not lose their spot over a short term injury. And the thing that was mised is that while we were good with Hill as the starter, it is not like we were bad with DC.
My issues is not about trading DC my issue was that they traded him for a really bad backup center, by the way I don't think is a surprised that DC wanted to be traded so the Pacers had to trade him.
What's grinding my gears is that I think they could have done better in a trade for DC.
DJ Augustin is not a rhythm player. He is a guy who played 30 MPG on some really bad teams while shooting around 38% from the field. I bought into a lot of the crap the Pacers were shilling about him "being a better fit", but honestly that was a bad move on my part. Especially when I was always a DC guy while he was here. I got too distracted by the shiny tin foil instead of going with what I had been saying for two years and shame on me for that.
DJ Augustin ultimate team player? Yeah...I don't know about that.
We weren't bad with DC as our starter at all, but we really hit our stride and became REALLY good with Hill as the starter. Hill is probably playing the best out of anybody on the Pacers right now, and has been the closer for this team for quite some time. I'm kinda confused why you're hating on him when he's kicking a$$ and earning that contract right now.
Hill MAY have been okay with coming off the bench, but if he's the better player, why continue to bring him off the bench? Just to appease DC? Collison is good, but he's not THAT good.
Who says I am hating on Hill?
I guess I took you saying "we should have kept Hill as the backup" a hating on Hill.
Listen Hill is slowly developing into probably the Pacers second, maybe greatest point guard ever. Seriously. He's the only player playing well right now. The last thing we need to do is moving him to the "2" so our garbage backup point guard DJ can get more minutes.
The reason DJ isn't playing well is he NEVER played well. He isn't very good. I think once someone comes in and fixes this cluster***** of a team you'll see DJ play better off the bench once he gets acclimated to the role.
Hill isn't a "traditional" point, but then again neither is every point guard outside of Deron, CP3, Nash, Rondo and that's about it. There's a few borderline guys like Mike Conley, but for the most part every point in the league is a shoot-first type point guard.
I'm no fan of Hill's contract, but it isn't crippling and he could be a point guard for a championship level team. The problem with this team right now is EVERYONE ELSE. There is the problem. So, let's start a fire sale.
Edit - anyone upset about the fact that the Pacers could of had Harden? IMagine Harden/Hill back court? man that'd be badass.
Had we used Paul George as the main asset the Pacers could of landed Harden possibly. But people like me thought George was going to be a star. (har)
Edit 2 - Real quick compare Hill's numbers against Mike Conley. I like Conley because he's essentially the perfect point. He's not a superstar taking up all your cap space, but he's a great defender, and then a willing and able passer thought not near the talents of guys like Rondo. He's also blossomed into a real good shooter which means he's a threat from nearly every aspect on the court. Just a real solid player.
Well, Hill is creeping on Conley's abilities. Hill is averaging more points at 15.5 (vs 14.8) but less assists at 5.5. (vs 6.8) I'll like Hill's numbers and I like how he's running the offense. The nice thing is, while Conley has come out playing his best basketball that probably won't be sustainable, Hill is still a little rusty and is not shooting at the level we know he can.
We'll most likely see Hill's numbers continue to trend upwards. Hill at the end of the season might make the case to being a top 10 point guard, and in a league of superstar point guards, that is saying something.
Last edited by mattie; 11-14-2012 at 07:29 PM.
Find me on the internets @mattiecolin