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Thread: Free Agency Awaits David West

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    Default Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    No, the difference between this team and the O'Brien era team, including the team Vogel got to the playoffs and then fell apart in the fourth quarter of every game against the Bulls is West
    .

    The difference is West and Hill, either way I don't think the Pacers beat that team.

    Maybe he doesn't make us a top-four contender (hard to blame him, this team was supposed to have Granger). But I think you're undervaluing what David actually does for this team and will continue to do for a couple more seasons
    .

    I'm actually valuing him pretty high by suggesting that we can get the packages that I'm suggesting and I'm sorry I don't believe he can play at a high level for couple of more seasons.


    Yes, we won't really be a title contender until David is our second option, and Danny (or Roy) is our third option. That's certainly true. But if you give up David, you've really got to get both a first and second option in return. That's a tall order for a team that will be near/ over the cap
    .

    Well that's the point get a player with potential and probably a draft pick instead of nothing, who's to say that West is not going to pull a Peja?

    I guess the difference is, right now I see them trying to maximize the team based on what they have or can reasonably get. You'd like to set fire to them so see if something else might be better in a few years. Given this franchise's financial struggles, its hard to blame them for having some patience with the roster they've been investing in. It isn't the fault of any of our active players that Danny is out.
    Because of this team financial struggles is what I think that is better to move West, I'll be really stupid to let him go for nothing or worse give him a long term contract so he can become another one of the bad contracts the Pacers signed recently.

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    Default Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

    OK, this is serious because it is a problem with all these scenarios and I can't get my head around it.

    Seems like as soon as a guy steps up, there is this movement to trade him while we can get something out of him. Fair enough, I guess, but what I don't understand is what team would trade us a BETTER asset knowing exactly what we do about the player (injury history, likely next salary demand, and so forth).

    It seems to me like all the valid trade scenarios involve trading a somewhat known quantity for a CHANCE - a draft pick, a young guy with "potential" - or as sweetener to get rid of something that is supposedly holding you back - a $10M contract to "get rid of" a $3.5M contract, but what $13M combination are you taking back that is any better or even the same?

    This is the reason I don't like the trade game or criticize trades very much. There's no guarantee you'll get something worthwhile back, in fact it is far more likely you just stay the same. Meanwhile, you're screwing with known quantities.
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    Default Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    I agree with you on this sort of thing for once. Pacers can't stand pat on this front court. I would move one of Hibbert or West this season. Depending on who can bring higher return. Sucks to say that because I like both of them, but the fact is we're sort of between a rock and a hard place at the moment when it comes to how to move forward. We still need to make moves, and while PG will never be a superstar he is too damn versatile IMO to just toss away unless someone offers you a huge package for him, but I just don't see that happening. So West or Hibbert seems to be the best place to bring in some assets. I know that opinion is not going to be incredibly popular, but I think it's pretty true about the team right now unless Roy starts scoring 15 a night at a 50% shooting clip all of a sudden.
    Roy is in a slump. I'm not that worried about it. He will come out of it.

    I would find it hard to believe that the P's would trade Roy after signing him to a big contract. But stranger things have happened.

    I agree about West. He is going to want big bucks if he keeps up this production. And the Pacers are going to be hard pressed to shell out that kind of money and still keep PG. On the other hand, if the team trades him this offseason, then it severely inhibits their ability to compete in the East. If they let the season ride, then they lose West most likely.

    It's a tough situation.

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    Default Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    OK, this is serious because it is a problem with all these scenarios and I can't get my head around it.

    Seems like as soon as a guy steps up, there is this movement to trade him while we can get something out of him.
    Well he is expiring so the Pacers can probably loss him for nothing why no try to get something in return?

    Fair enough, I guess, but what I don't understand is what team would trade us a BETTER asset knowing exactly what we do about the player (injury history, likely next salary demand, and so forth).
    Some contenders have good assets seating on the bench(OKC) and some teams are loaded with young players(Houston) and nobody is asking to trade him for a better asset that's not reasonable.

    It seems to me like all the valid trade scenarios involve trading a somewhat known quantity for a CHANCE - a draft pick, a young guy with "potential" - or as sweetener to get rid of something that is supposedly holding you back - a $10M contract to "get rid of" a $3.5M contract, but what $13M combination are you taking back that is any better or even the same?
    Nobody is saying that West's 10mil is holding the Pacers back and yes there are combinations of trades that can happen for about 13mil.

    This is the reason I don't like the trade game or criticize trades very much. There's no guarantee you'll get something worthwhile back, in fact it is far more likely you just stay the same. Meanwhile, you're screwing with known quantities.
    Or you stay with that known quantity for the next 3 years and start the rebuilding process all over again in 3 years when he expires? or that known quantity doesn't live up to his new contract and you are stuck with a long term contract ala JO,Ford,Foster,Dunleavy,etc?

    By the way I know the Pacers are going to do the same they did with the guys I mentioned, they either let him walk for nothing or they re-sign him for the next 3 years with the hopes that Danny comes back healthy and everything works the right way.

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    Default Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    OK, this is serious because it is a problem with all these scenarios and I can't get my head around it.

    Seems like as soon as a guy steps up, there is this movement to trade him while we can get something out of him. Fair enough, I guess, but what I don't understand is what team would trade us a BETTER asset knowing exactly what we do about the player (injury history, likely next salary demand, and so forth).

    It seems to me like all the valid trade scenarios involve trading a somewhat known quantity for a CHANCE - a draft pick, a young guy with "potential" - or as sweetener to get rid of something that is supposedly holding you back - a $10M contract to "get rid of" a $3.5M contract, but what $13M combination are you taking back that is any better or even the same?

    This is the reason I don't like the trade game or criticize trades very much. There's no guarantee you'll get something worthwhile back, in fact it is far more likely you just stay the same. Meanwhile, you're screwing with known quantities.
    Agree 100%. A lot of itchy triggers on this board. Why would we trade a player in West who is playing above his pay and is likely willing to resign here? I don't understand why people are so certain we are "going to lose him for nothing." He has given no indication he wants to leave and I find it very likely he resigns for 2-3 years at a decent price. Indy affords him a competitive team, a good organization, and most importantly, we can pay him. West is only 32 years old and has minimal reliance on athletiscm. While not as talented, his game is in the mold of Karl Malone, who played elite ball until he was 40. I guarantee West has 3-4 good years left, which is exactly the timing for which PG, Hill, and Hibbert will be in there prime. If we trade West now for a young asset, it will take 4-5 years for that player to reach their ceiling, at which point Hibbert and Hill are now in their 30's and we go through the entire process again. All championship teams that I can remember have had at least 1 starter in their 30's. West just turned 32, took a year off, and as I said, doesn't rely on athletiscm. I hope we resign him for 2-3 years at 8-10M and call it a day - our frontcourt is set for the next 3 years. Comparing him to JO is ridiculous as JO was injured the years prior to trading him. And we didn't receive "nothing" for JO, we landed cap space and our starting C.

    Also, love the calling for Green and Mahinmi to be traded and labeling them "bad contracts". We aren't even two weeks into the season and some of those wanting them gone were those impressed with their preseason. Green has had a few defensive lapses (expected in a new system), but statistically he is exactly where he should be for a bench wing at 20-25mpg (10pts and 5 boards). Guys like Nick Young, Courtney Lee, and Kyle Korver are making more and performing less. I'm fine with Green's performance for 3.5M per year. In fact, he is likely underpaid right now.

    Mahinmi has struggled at times, but he hasn't been terrible - 5 pts, 4 boards, 1 block with 47FG% and 81FT%. Those are decent numbers for a defensive big off the bench. Per 48mins he is exactly where Speights was last year and he got paid 4.2M this year, more than Mahinmi. That's just the going rate for defensive bigs, always has been - Kwame Brown was making 7M per year not too long ago. Joel Anthony was paid just under 4.0M per year after averaging 3 pts and 3 boards the year prior. Mahinmi will be fine and serve well as our backup C.

    Yes we are losing and in a funk, but people are drastically overreacting here and pointing fingers the wrong direction.

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    Default Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Well he is expiring so the Pacers can probably loss him for nothing why no try to get something in return?
    Cuz we have no idea if they'll simply let him go or that they actually value him like they valued Foster. If the FO doesn't think that he's part of our future....then I agree with you that we should something for nothing....the problem is that we have no idea what the FO thinks of him.

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Some contenders have good assets seating on the bench(OKC) and some teams are loaded with young players(Houston) and nobody is asking to trade him for a better asset that's not reasonable.
    Given that the Pacers are still looking to return to the 2nd round of the Playoffs.....if a Starter like West is traded...the FO is going to want someone that can contribute as a Starter. I would be hard pressed to find a trade that netted the Pacers an acceptable Starting quality PF that could contribute JUST as a Starter ( I'm not even talking at the same level as David West but an acceptable Starting PF ) while finding assets to match salaries. Saying that West can be traded to any of the mentioned Teams and then finding a trade that makes sense for both Teams while finding one that makes Salaries match is a lot easier said than done.

    I fully expect that there will be some changes to the roster by the 2013-2014 offseason....I just don't see West as being one of the Players traded between now and February 2013 ( this year's trade deadline ). IMHO...West will either be re-signed/extended/whatever just like Foster was ( which means that the Pacers will be overpaying for a Player that is towards the end of his career ) or that he'll simply be let go for nothing.

    The same can be said for Granger.
    Last edited by CableKC; 11-12-2012 at 05:29 PM.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

    With the way some people on this board would run a team no one would ever be on this team for more than 3 seasons. As soon as a young player started to reach their potential they would be traded for the next guy with potential because the first guy couldn't possible net you more talent in the future, if they were a vet as soon as they were down to the last year of their contract they would be traded because you couldn't possibly re-sign them to a contract they could like up to. I am so glad we have had GMs like Walsh and Bird running the show. They realize winning a championship is about more than just putting the 5 guys with the most talent possible together, and that the grass is not always greener on the other side.

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    Default Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

    West's recent on-court attitude is showing me that he's not happy with the team he's currently playing for, and won't think twice to leave for a stacked team for a smaller dollar.
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    Default Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

    Quote Originally Posted by imbtyler View Post
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    West's recent on-court attitude is showing me that he's not happy with the team he's currently playing for, and won't think twice to leave for a stacked team for a smaller dollar.
    What attitude are you talking about? The one where he wants to win, or the one where he doesn't give a ****. So far I have only seen one attitude, and it says nothing about him wanting to leave.

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    Default Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Roy is not going anywhere, Danny doesn't have any value, Hill is not going anywhere, Paul George is not going anywhere, at this point the Pacers need to realize that without Danny they are not going anywhere, not only that but I don't think we can expect Danny to be 100% healthy ever again(like Dunleavy).

    The Pacers only asset is West, he is not part of the future and the Pacers are probably going lose him for nothing, trade him to a team that feels like they need one more piece to compete and try to get one or two young pieces plus picks for the future, at some point the Pacers front office has to do what is best for the franchise.

    Here are some teams that could probably trade for West: Houston, Atlanta, SA, OKC, Boston, Denver, GS, maybe more teams.
    I think its painfull obvious right now that Danny DOES have value
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    Default Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    I think its painfull obvious right now that Danny DOES have value
    When he comes back and plays well he will have value, although right at this moment his value is extremely low as he is injured and there will be question marks about his ability to recover and perform well.

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    Default Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    I think its painfull obvious right now that Danny DOES have value
    To us...yes...he does have value. But in terms of Trade value...not as much. He's simply worth more to us than he is to other Teams.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    I think its painfull obvious right now that Danny DOES have value
    Tell that to the other 29 teams to see what they are going to tell you, yes a healthy Danny has value, a broken down Danny with knee issues and a salary of 13mil this year and 14 next year? hell no.

    By the way I'm starting to feel like I'm repeating myself from 3 years ago when people told me that all Dunleavy needed was some months off to get back to his old self, it's nice to have some hope but the reality is that Danny's odds of been 100% healthy once again are pretty low.

    The hope of Danny riding the white horse to take the Pacers to the promise land are also pretty low.

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    Default Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Tell that to the other 29 teams to see what they are going to tell you, yes a healthy Danny has value, a broken down Danny with knee issues and a salary of 13mil this year and 14 next year? hell no.

    By the way I'm starting to feel like I'm repeating myself from 3 years ago when people told me that all Dunleavy needed was some months off to get back to his old self, it's nice to have some hope but the reality is that Danny's odds of been 100% healthy once again are pretty low.

    The hope of Danny riding the white horse to take the Pacers to the promise land are also pretty low.
    Unless you think 19ppg was his normal self he did. He went back to averaging around 11ppg like he did before he was with the Pacers. So I do not really see your point.

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    Default Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I like the pieces Houston has, Patterson, Morris, etc, it looks to me like they want to win now and are looking to spend money, send them Ian+West for a package of Patterson+Morris and maybe a pick?

    OKC's Lamb+ Perkins for West+Ian?

    Denver's Wilson Chandler+pick for West?

    There are many scenarios were the Pacers can send West to.
    Why would we trade for Perkins when he's more overpaid than Geen nd Mahinmi combined?

    Not to mention, he has THE SAME stats as Mahinmi while getting paid 7 mil this yr on a contract that goes up over the next 3.

    Wilson Chandler has played WORSE than Green has this far.

    It seems like Green is starting to come out of his funk. 10-12ppg for 3.5 isn't a bad contract at all. (Chandler is avg 6ppg for 5.9, on a contract that escalates.)

    I agree we should at least look to see what we could get for West. But I'm not feeling taking on bloated contracts (Perkins, Chandler) for a minimal bump in production/talent.
    Last edited by Ace E.Anderson; 11-12-2012 at 07:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Unless you think 19ppg was his normal self he did. He went back to averaging around 11ppg like he did before he was with the Pacers. So I do not really see your point.
    Dunleavy lost more than an step after he came back that's my point, he went from good player to bench player, in Danny's case the report is that his pain is never going to go away plus he has a chronic knee issue since college, so expecting that he comes back to his old self is wishful thinking in my opinion.

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    Default Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Why would we trade for Perkins when he's more overpaid than Geen nd Mahinmi combined?

    Not to mention, he has THE SAME stats as Mahinmi while getting paid 7 mil this yr on a contract that goes up over the next 3.

    Wilson Chandler has played WORSE than Green has this far.

    It seems like Green is starting to come out of his funk. 10-12ppg for 3.5 isn't a bad contract at all. (Chandler is avg 6pph for 5.9, on a contract that escalates.)

    I agree we should at least look to see what we could get for West. But I'm not feeling taking on bloated contracts (Perlins, Chandler) for a minimal bump in production/talent.
    Those were just examples.

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    Default Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    With the way some people on this board would run a team no one would ever be on this team for more than 3 seasons. As soon as a young player started to reach their potential they would be traded for the next guy with potential because the first guy couldn't possible net you more talent in the future, if they were a vet as soon as they were down to the last year of their contract they would be traded because you couldn't possibly re-sign them to a contract they could like up to. I am so glad we have had GMs like Walsh and Bird running the show. They realize winning a championship is about more than just putting the 5 guys with the most talent possible together and that the grass is not always greener on the other side.
    How many championships they have again? exactly.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    How many championships they have again? exactly.....
    3 - 1981, 84, and 86.

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    Default Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

    Quote Originally Posted by imbtyler View Post
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    West's recent on-court attitude is showing me that he's not happy with the team he's currently playing for, and won't think twice to leave for a stacked team for a smaller dollar.
    I think West will go for the highest dollar. He came to Indy on a short contract to rehab his knee and bounce back out for bigger money once he was healthy. I hope we can hang onto him, but it will be costly.

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    Default Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I think West will go for the highest dollar. He came to Indy on a short contract to rehab his knee and bounce back out for bigger money once he was healthy. I hope we can hang onto him, but it will be costly.
    Source?

    Or, just making a statement based on gut? I don't mean to be harsh, but West hasn't shown any indication of what you're stating. However, on the internet people are welcome to make statements and puff out their chest without any real facts.

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    Default Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    He's making $10 million per Season now....he's going to demand more (and most likely it)
    He's going to get 10 because he's worth 10 (at least). If you can get a "we gave you trust" deal at 3 for 32 that would be nice, and money better spent than "you've got to" Hibbert money.

    You can pay Roy, Hill, Paul, West and Danny about the same as Miami is paying the big 3 plus 2 other starters. The big 3 will make 56m next year. Roy, Hill and Danny will be making 36 which leaves you 10m each to give to Paul and West to have 5 starters vs the Miami 3. It's very reasonable.

    Danny's deal ends next year and Paul's rookie deal technically goes through next season, so you might be seeing a reduction in Danny's money (depending on this year and next) that offsets some of that Paul increase.

    Bottom line - just the savings on the Pacers big 3 vs Miami's big 3, even if you make a 3rd Pacer a 14m guy, still saves you enough in total (4m x 3 guys) to pay West as a bonus to offset the talent difference.


    The whole point in money is to be able to pay guys that produce. Right now West is the best non-rookie investment the Pacers have going. The 28m in Hibbert/Danny is what hurts them. So you want to re-up West as much as you possibly can. 14-15m, probably outside their limit unless they were to deal Danny, but 10-11 for 3 more years is achievable.

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    Default Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Why would we trade for Perkins when he's more overpaid than Geen nd Mahinmi combined?

    Not to mention, he has THE SAME stats as Mahinmi while getting paid 7 mil this yr on a contract that goes up over the next 3.

    Wilson Chandler has played WORSE than Green has this far.

    It seems like Green is starting to come out of his funk. 10-12ppg for 3.5 isn't a bad contract at all. (Chandler is avg 6ppg for 5.9, on a contract that escalates.)

    I agree we should at least look to see what we could get for West. But I'm not feeling taking on bloated contracts (Perkins, Chandler) for a minimal bump in production/talent.
    I agree. Mahinmi is developing his on-court confidence. His talent has already shown through in footwork, quickness, size and strength. Green is the same way. Both look improved with each passing game.

    You lose DJ and Tyler which is 6m from this year and replace them with just one guy at that rate. You can have new PG, Green, Mahinmi and maybe Plumlee a little plus filler and the starting 5 for about the same price as this year. So if this team starts to settle in together there's no good reason to break it up.

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    Default Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

    "Pacers big 3"? is this real life?

    Cocaine is a hell of a drug
    Last edited by vnzla81; 11-12-2012 at 11:50 PM.

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    Default Re: Free Agency Awaits David West

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    You can pay Roy, Hill, Paul, West and Danny about the same as Miami is paying the big 3 plus 2 other starters. The big 3 will make 56m next year. Roy, Hill and Danny will be making 36 which leaves you 10m each to give to Paul and West to have 5 starters vs the Miami 3. It's very reasonable.
    The problem though is that Miami is deep in the tax, so it's not a fair comparison. Miami is at $84m this year whereas the Pacers are realistically looking at $70m+ as a hard cap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    The whole point in money is to be able to pay guys that produce. Right now West is the best non-rookie investment the Pacers have going. The 28m in Hibbert/Danny is what hurts them. So you want to re-up West as much as you possibly can. 14-15m, probably outside their limit unless they were to deal Danny, but 10-11 for 3 more years is achievable.
    I agree with this though, if it comes down to a choice between West and Granger for who gets the $10m+ contract, I'd pick West too.

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