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Thread: Colts/Pats --- here we go again

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    Default Re: Colts/Pats --- here we go again

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    That stadium is the house that Peyton built. Without Peyton Manning, they would be the LA Colts by now.... Somewhere down the line within ten years, Luck will suffer an injury and Irsay will drop him just like he did Peyton and sell out the entire team and start rebuilding again..... If I were Luck, I would not sign a new contract with the Colts and I would move on to a team that has more respect for its superstars..... but, if I had been Luck, I would have refused to be drafted by Indy and I would not have signed ala John Elway and Eli Manning....
    If if if if if if if if. Facts are facts, and the facts show that Jim Irsay has drastically enhanced the Colts value and success since taking over in 1997. Peyton wasn't the one negotiating the stadium deal with the city, was he?

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    Default Re: Colts/Pats --- here we go again

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    That stadium is the house that Peyton built. Without Peyton Manning, they would be the LA Colts by now.... Somewhere down the line within ten years, Luck will suffer an injury and Irsay will drop him just like he did Peyton and sell out the entire team and start rebuilding again..... If I were Luck, I would not sign a new contract with the Colts and I would move on to a team that has more respect for its superstars..... but, if I had been Luck, I would have refused to be drafted by Indy and I would not have signed ala John Elway and Eli Manning....
    Peyton played like crap the in the playoffs in large his whole time here. He wasn't even the most valuable player for us the year we won the SB, Bob Sanders was.

    Against Baltimore, he was 15-30 for 170 yards and 2 picks, we scored 15 points. Against KC he threw for 268 yards, but he had 3 picks. That's 5 picks in the first 2 games and we still won somehow, but not because of him. Not to mention in the pats game he stunk it up in the first half as well and dug us a huge hole.

    i appreciate what Manning has done for Indy, but he didn't do it all himself.

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    Default Re: Colts/Pats --- here we go again

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    Peyton played like crap the in the playoffs in large his whole time here. He wasn't even the most valuable player for us the year we won the SB, Bob Sanders was.

    Against Baltimore, he was 15-30 for 170 yards and 2 picks, we scored 15 points. Against KC he threw for 268 yards, but he had 3 picks. That's 5 picks in the first 2 games and we still won somehow, but not because of him. Not to mention in the pats game he stunk it up in the first half as well and dug us a huge hole.

    i appreciate what Manning has done for Indy, but he didn't do it all himself.
    The picks in the Baltimore game were basically as good as punts, IIRC. He managed that game just fine.

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    Default Re: Colts/Pats --- here we go again

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    The picks in the Baltimore game were basically as good as punts, IIRC. He managed that game just fine.
    In case you missed it, Peyton WAS the MVP that year and Sanders was not.... If not for Peyton, they may not have made the playoffs in any year and certainly not year after year like they did..... The rest of the NFL knows what the Colts had in Peyton. That is why the evil genius did not punt on fourth and two but went for it. He knew his defense would not stop Peyton from scoring after the punt. That is why teams (other than Indy) were willing to take a risk on Peyton this year. John Elway is being greatly repaid for that decision. We will see how it turns out with Irsay and the Colts. It looks great so far but that can chance very quickly.....

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    Default Re: Colts/Pats --- here we go again

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    If if if if if if if if. Facts are facts, and the facts show that Jim Irsay has drastically enhanced the Colts value and success since taking over in 1997. Peyton wasn't the one negotiating the stadium deal with the city, was he?
    No. He was the one responsible for the city even being interested in negotiating...... What Irsay did was basically the same thing the baseball Marlins have done this week. He got a new stadium paid for by the state and the city and then he dumped his star QB and many of the players responsible for winning for so many years putting millions in his own pocket. Colts fans will eventually pay the price for this if not this year then in the coming years...... What exactly did Irsay do to enhance all of that in 1997, oh, right, he drafted Peyton Manning........

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    Default Re: Colts/Pats --- here we go again

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    In case you missed it, Peyton WAS the MVP that year and Sanders was not.... If not for Peyton, they may not have made the playoffs in any year and certainly not year after year like they did..... The rest of the NFL knows what the Colts had in Peyton. That is why the evil genius did not punt on fourth and two but went for it. He knew his defense would not stop Peyton from scoring after the punt. That is why teams (other than Indy) were willing to take a risk on Peyton this year. John Elway is being greatly repaid for that decision. We will see how it turns out with Irsay and the Colts. It looks great so far but that can chance very quickly.....
    I definitely agree with all of that. He's a top 5 all time QB. I wasn't criticizing the Baltimore interceptions in the playoff game six years ago. I said that they were basically just like punts, IE they didn't hurt the Colts.

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    Default Re: Colts/Pats --- here we go again

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
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    I know what you meant. However, as written, you just said there is nothing classless about trying to hurt someone.
    That is a different issue. Yes, I think it is classless for New England to try and hurt someone but that is a long way from thinking that I wanted to see someone hurt. New England is classless by the way. They are also winners who will do anything to keep winning...... Three QBs went out last week and two of those injuries are very serious and could be season ending. Was that done on purpose? Probably not but the fact is when a defensive player gets a chance to unload on a QB and perhaps knock him out of the game or end his season, he will be trying to do exactly that. Defensive players have been trying to end Luck's season since his first game. So far, he has avoided that but with the punishment he is taking, it is only a matter of time until one gets the job done. The same is true of RGIII. Big Ben has suffered lots of injuries but this is the first really serious one and it could have ended his life.....

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    Default Re: Colts/Pats --- here we go again

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I definitely agree with all of that. He's a top 5 all time QB. I wasn't criticizing the Baltimore interceptions in the playoff game six years ago. I said that they were basically just like punts, IE they didn't hurt the Colts.
    Many INTs work out that way..... I don't think there has ever been a better game manager than Peyton Manning. Give that man a lead and he won't care about his stats, he will care about running the clock and closing that game out. People in Indy were spoiled by Peyton. Andrew Luck is not Peyton Manning and he isn't even close. Yes, his rookie stats are comperable or even better in some ways but he still isn't Peyton Manning and they day will come when the Luck believers here will admit that...... I think Peyton might get another MVP and another Super Bowl ring before that happens..... Denver is in for a great four or five year run with Peyton and he will put away most of the career QB records in that stretch.....

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    Default Re: Colts/Pats --- here we go again

    If Peyton wins the super bowl, I think he'll retire immediately afterward. The guy has admitted he's not the same player physically that he was before the neck injury. And Peyton while great, most definitely cares about his stats IMO, I'm not saying that to criticize him, I just think it's true. Peyton was a big reason we won so many regular season games, he was a big reason we made the playoffs every year.

    But once we were in the playoffs in 2007, Peyton was not the reason we won the Super Bowl that year. I'm just being honest. Peyton's best years were actually the last few IMO, because that team was a piece of crap.

    As far as Irsay wanting to save money, I think that's been silly, maybe on Peyton's contract, but we have what like $40 million in dead deals we are paying on right now?

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    Default Re: Colts/Pats --- here we go again

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    If Peyton wins the super bowl, I think he'll retire immediately afterward. The guy has admitted he's not the same player physically that he was before the neck injury. And Peyton while great, most definitely cares about his stats IMO, I'm not saying that to criticize him, I just think it's true. Peyton was a big reason we won so many regular season games, he was a big reason we made the playoffs every year.

    But once we were in the playoffs in 2007, Peyton was not the reason we won the Super Bowl that year. I'm just being honest. Peyton's best years were actually the last few IMO, because that team was a piece of crap.

    As far as Irsay wanting to save money, I think that's been silly, maybe on Peyton's contract, but we have what like $40 million in dead deals we are paying on right now?

    Peyton's second half against New England was one of the greatest performances by a QB in playoff history. Yeah his stats in the 06 playoffs weren't pretty, but it's not like any of his interceptions cost us. Also, Brady has had some pretty bad playoff stats in recent years. The playoffs are just a different animal as you are playing against elite teams.

    Agree 100% with what you say about Irsay. Aside from Peyton, the players we got rid of are no longer any good. I'm grateful for their contributions to the golden era of Colts football, but that doesn't mean that we should have kept them forever.

    Irsay has always shown that he is willing to spend on the team. Always. The Marlins example is silly. They got their stadium then after one year they dumped their entire team. The Colts opened their stadium up in 2008 and Peyton played there for three seasons, which included a Super Bowl appearance. In the fourth season, he missed the entire year because of a bizarre injury that no one could have predicted. It's not like Irsay was thinking "I'll fleece the city and get this new stadium. I'll keep Peyton for the first few years to make people think I care. Then I'll cut him after he gets an injury that keeps him out the entire season."

    Lucas Oil Stadium opened in 2008, which was Manning's 11 season. Common sense said that Peyton couldn't possibly have played that many seasons there. Three is definitely shorter then we would have expected, but this is a stadium that is going to be around for a long long time. You don't build a 750 million dollar stadium purely to showcase one player that had already played for a decade.

    No one could have ever dreamed that things would play out like they did. But the Colts brand seems to have escaped relatively unscathed. Just keep winning.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 11-15-2012 at 01:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Colts/Pats --- here we go again

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    If Peyton wins the super bowl, I think he'll retire immediately afterward. The guy has admitted he's not the same player physically that he was before the neck injury. And Peyton while great, most definitely cares about his stats IMO, I'm not saying that to criticize him, I just think it's true. Peyton was a big reason we won so many regular season games, he was a big reason we made the playoffs every year.

    But once we were in the playoffs in 2007, Peyton was not the reason we won the Super Bowl that year. I'm just being honest. Peyton's best years were actually the last few IMO, because that team was a piece of crap.

    As far as Irsay wanting to save money, I think that's been silly, maybe on Peyton's contract, but we have what like $40 million in dead deals we are paying on right now?
    I do not think he would retire if he were to win it this year or next year. Elway didn't. If he is healthing and enjoying his situation, he will play until his skills erode. Peyton has always been a hard worker who stays in shape year around. He also has taken less punishment than some QBs in their career. I can see him playing to age 41 or 42 if he want to do it and he can get the job done and is surrounded by a pretty good team...... He needs about four years to get all of the QB records if he stays healthy. There is nothing wrong with putting them even more out of anyone's range in the near future (Brees, Brady, Rogers, etc).....

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    Default Re: Colts/Pats --- here we go again

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    What Irsay did was basically the same thing the baseball Marlins have done this week.
    It was not basically the same thing, it was not anything close to what the Marlins have done.

    From the Colts' "firesale" exactly one player that was let go from the Colts is having a better season or is even close to his Colts' replacement. Everyone one of those personnel moves, excluding Manning, have made the Colts better in the short term. Everyone one those those personnel moves, including Manning, have setup the Colts exponentially better in the long term. Whether they ultimately reach their potential is another matter. Just because you supposedly hate Irsay doesn't change this.

    And you constantly bringing up Luck inevitably being knocked out for a game, season, or career, doesn't support you in whatever you keep trying to say. You mean it's possibly a football player could get hurt? What if Peyton's storybook comeback comes to a screeching halt because of a blind side hit that breaks his neck? Will you finally give up your nonsense on here, or will you continue to repeat the same things over and over?

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    Default Re: Colts/Pats --- here we go again

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    I do not think he would retire if he were to win it this year or next year. Elway didn't. If he is healthing and enjoying his situation, he will play until his skills erode. Peyton has always been a hard worker who stays in shape year around. He also has taken less punishment than some QBs in their career. I can see him playing to age 41 or 42 if he want to do it and he can get the job done and is surrounded by a pretty good team...... He needs about four years to get all of the QB records if he stays healthy. There is nothing wrong with putting them even more out of anyone's range in the near future (Brees, Brady, Rogers, etc).....
    Yeah I agree with this. Peyton will play for as long as he feels he can win games for his team. He'll retire when he no longer thinks he can help a team, and not a day sooner, IMO.

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    Default Re: Colts/Pats --- here we go again

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    No. He was the one responsible for the city even being interested in negotiating...... What Irsay did was basically the same thing the baseball Marlins have done this week. He got a new stadium paid for by the state and the city and then he dumped his star QB and many of the players responsible for winning for so many years putting millions in his own pocket. Colts fans will eventually pay the price for this if not this year then in the coming years...... What exactly did Irsay do to enhance all of that in 1997, oh, right, he drafted Peyton Manning........
    Yeah, that must be why the Colts are drawing an average of 103.3% capacity at home games this year.

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    Default Re: Colts/Pats --- here we go again

    Quote Originally Posted by idioteque View Post
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    Yeah, that must be why the Colts are drawing an average of 103.3% capacity at home games this year.
    That too will end.... If they have that kind of attendance then why do they call me every month begging me to repurchase my season tickets? They lost a lot of season ticket holders. Visiting teams and last minute purchasers have kept that number high. When this train falls of the tracks (and, yes, I believe that will happen in the next couple of years if not yet this year) and there will be blackouts.... Imagine what would happen if, say, Luck injured something that caused nerve damage and could no longer play. I hope that never happens but every player in the NFL can have it happen and Luck has taken way too much punishment and he will continue to take it this year and probably for several years to come..... This not a knock on Luck but on Irsay and management for not having a line to protect him. Peyton had that line and they were always good at pass protection if not the run..... Luck will certainly need "luck" to survive that. The NFL is littered with QB who did not.....

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    Default Re: Colts/Pats --- here we go again

    Forgive us all if we take your predictions of the Colts impeding doom with a grain of salt.

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    Default Re: Colts/Pats --- here we go again

    So this is the business plan:
    Get a new stadium, cut Manning in relatively short order, then bring in a low-priced JV squad to play football. Then sit back and rake in the dough.

    Except how much dough can you rake in with a losing team, no star potential, blackouts, and dwindling gate receipts?

    If Irsay was about short-term dough then keeping Manning until his game deteriorated so much the crowd turned on him (IOW milking his career and name value) seems like a better business plan.
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    Default Re: Colts/Pats --- here we go again

    Now back to our current awesome team. Here is a good Q and A The Star did with Grigson:


    http://blogs.indystar.com/philb/2012...medium=twitter

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    Default Re: Colts/Pats --- here we go again

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    So this is the business plan:
    Get a new stadium, cut Manning in relatively short order, then bring in a low-priced JV squad to play football. Then sit back and rake in the dough.

    Except how much dough can you rake in with a losing team, no star potential, blackouts, and dwindling gate receipts?

    If Irsay was about short-term dough then keeping Manning until his game deteriorated so much the crowd turned on him (IOW milking his career and name value) seems like a better business plan.
    You forget that Irsay pocketed millions by dumping Manning and signing Luck..... He also got to dump a lot of other high paid players (I won't argue that some of them needed to go but they would have had to stay if Peyton stayed) putting even more money in his pocket while he signed rookie and cheap free agent replacements. The dumping of Manning and tear down of this team was strictly financial and Irsay made a fortune doing it. He will do it again as soon as it is convenient and the die hard fans will stay and keep coming and being screwed.... Good teams, well managed team don't go through rebuilds like that. Just look at the Patriots... Since the evil genius has joined that team, they have had some down years but they were still winning. Only bad teams with poor managements have to start all over again every five or six years and spend years losing inbetween....

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    Default Re: Colts/Pats --- here we go again

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Forgive us all if we take your predictions of the Colts impeding doom with a grain of salt.
    I don't blame you for that at all......

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    Default Re: Colts/Pats --- here we go again

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    Good teams, well managed team don't go through rebuilds like that. Just look at the Patriots... Since the evil genius has joined that team, they have had some down years but they were still winning. Only bad teams with poor managements have to start all over again every five or six years and spend years losing inbetween....

    Isn't that exactly what we're doing? We are 6-3 in just our second year without Manning starting and first year without him on the roster. Last year we sucked because we had the worst collection of starting QBs to ever take a snap.

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    Default Re: Colts/Pats --- here we go again

    Can we just stop talking to him? There's no point in arguing.
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    Default Re: Colts/Pats --- here we go again

    Quote Originally Posted by Suaveness View Post
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    Can we just stop talking to him? There's no point in arguing.
    Yes, by all means, I mean I might say something you just don't want to hear.... Picture three monkeys here.....

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    Default Re: Colts/Pats --- here we go again

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    You forget that Irsay pocketed millions by dumping Manning and signing Luck..... He also got to dump a lot of other high paid players (I won't argue that some of them needed to go but they would have had to stay if Peyton stayed) putting even more money in his pocket while he signed rookie and cheap free agent replacements. The dumping of Manning and tear down of this team was strictly financial and Irsay made a fortune doing it. He will do it again as soon as it is convenient and the die hard fans will stay and keep coming and being screwed.... Good teams, well managed team don't go through rebuilds like that. Just look at the Patriots... Since the evil genius has joined that team, they have had some down years but they were still winning. Only bad teams with poor managements have to start all over again every five or six years and spend years losing inbetween....
    Doing what the Colts did doesn't put a ton of money into Irsay's pocket. That's a pretty common misconception. It helps him for cash flow purposes by allowing him to spend it next year instead of this year, but that's it. The Colts are 5 million away from the cap this year, which is smack dab in the middle of the league (around teams like the Patriots, Packers, and Bears). By doing what they did and getting rid of so many players, they opened up quite a bit of cap space next year. But they can't just pocket that money. The new labor agreement forces teams to spend a very large percentage of their cap every year, and that provision goes into effect next season. So if Irsay was trying to make money by doing this, he didn't read the fine print very carefully on the new labor agreement.

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    Default Re: Colts/Pats --- here we go again

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    Yes, by all means, I mean I might say something you just don't want to hear.... Picture three monkeys here.....
    You definitely have the bolded part correct.
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