View Poll Results: Coach Frank Vogel

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  • Yes he is the best coach for this team and can lead us to the ECF's and beyond

    33 28.70%
  • No - great guy but in over his coaching experience

    25 21.74%
  • Not sure

    23 20.00%
  • Brian Shaw might be the best coach for this team

    30 26.09%
  • both Vogel and Shaw are not the right coach for this team and we need to find one this offseason

    4 3.48%
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Thread: Coach Frank Vogel

  1. #101
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Hypnotiq View Post
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    How do we know Shaw is any good tho?

    personally i hope we move heaven and earth and get Jerry Sloan here
    Well considering he was the protege of one of the best coaches in history...

  2. #102
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Bird Fan View Post
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    Well considering he was the protege of one of the best coaches in history...
    The problem is you'd think he'd help Vogel fix things quickly. Considering none of that is happening you wonder if Brian Shaw doesn't have it figured out either.
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  3. #103
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    I don't think Shaw would do much better for us. He's in Vogel's ear all the time already, it seems like it would be a lateral change. The only difference being that he would be expected to change the offense.

  4. #104
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    The fans forced Bird's hand and that made him fire JOB when he didn't want to do that. He wanted to finish that season with JOB and then bring in a hot assistant coach the next year. Instead, Vogel go the job in an interim basis but the team came around and that forced Bird to hire Vogel, something he never wanted to do..... The result was already written. Vogel would go into some losing streak and he would be quickly replaced. In this case, I think Shaw gets the job and I think he might have gotten it if Bird had been able to follow his original plan......

    I agree with this to a point but the problem is that JOB should never have been back for that season anyway. I suppose there's always the chance Bird had his eyes on someone that wouldn't be available for one more season for some reason, but JOB was a firing waiting to happen by the start of his final season. His expiration date was WAY past time.

    So Bird put himself into the position to lose some control of the coaching situation if JOB's season went downhill enough he HAD to be fired (which would've been a miracle had it went any other way by that point), and then if the interim coach did well enough to gain support of players and fans it would be hard to not retain him. And that is exactly what happened.
    O'Brien has been fired! Yay! What took so long?

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  5. #105
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    The problem is you'd think he'd help Vogel fix things quickly. Considering none of that is happening you wonder if Brian Shaw doesn't have it figured out either.
    Brian Shaw would play a completely different offense. Vogel isn't going to listen to Shaw about that. Shaw comes in and they start playing the Triangle.....

  6. #106
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Hypnotiq View Post
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    How do we know Shaw is any good tho?

    personally i hope we move heaven and earth and get Jerry Sloan here
    Bird might have done that. Walsh will either hire or promote an assistant coach..... I don't think Sloan would take this job....

  7. #107
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Bird decided he wasn't going to give Vogel the job until some vet coaches were brought in. I would say that was pretty telling on what Bird really thought of coach Vogel. Can't find it but I remember Bird talking about how he saw similarities between Frank and Lawence Frank on how they came up through the ranks. It wasn't a put down, but it didn't seem to be a ringing endorsement either on how to get a coaching position.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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  9. #108
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    I had no intent of starting a firestorm with this thread. i feel bad for Frank.

    the bottom line is this team is not very good.

  10. #109
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    The issue isn't the players, it's the types of plays they are running. For example one common situation is the roll off the high post across the FT line and down the right side of the lane. The dribbler gets cut off and tries to throw back across the lane to the high post area and it gets stolen. This is not a bad player choice because it happens too often to too many players.

    The plays are putting players in bad passing situations or in situations in which the post can be aggressively defended.

    People saying that the team is just missing open shots are crazy. There are "I'm comfortable and in rhythm shots" and there are hurried, unexpected, kinda-open shots. This team has about 3-4 quality looks per game. Everything else is a total cluster**** of confusion and poor spacing.


    I like Frank and his personality has been good for the team. But the strategy on offense that they are trying to run absolutely sucks and is not putting the talent in their best positions to win.


    The team is literally the worst team in the NBA at this point, and the talent is much better than that. Frank needs to figure something out because I don't see how he can have this go to the 25 game point and not start looking over his shoulder at Shaw. Personally I don't see how Frank is going to make it through this year.

    It sucks because I hate to see a great person not have success, but there's no point in sugar coating the situation either. Maybe this is just step 1/team 1 of his coaching learning process.

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  12. #110
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    The issue isn't the players, it's the types of plays they are running. For example one common situation is the roll off the high post across the FT line and down the right side of the lane. The dribbler gets cut off and tries to throw back across the lane to the high post area and it gets stolen. This is not a bad player choice because it happens too often to too many players.

    The plays are putting players in bad passing situations or in situations in which the post can be aggressively defended.

    People saying that the team is just missing open shots are crazy. There are "I'm comfortable and in rhythm shots" and there are hurried, unexpected, kinda-open shots. This team has about 3-4 quality looks per game. Everything else is a total cluster**** of confusion and poor spacing.


    I like Frank and his personality has been good for the team. But the strategy on offense that they are trying to run absolutely sucks and is not putting the talent in their best positions to win.


    The team is literally the worst team in the NBA at this point, and the talent is much better than that. Frank needs to figure something out because I don't see how he can have this go to the 25 game point and not start looking over his shoulder at Shaw. Personally I don't see how Frank is going to make it through this year.

    It sucks because I hate to see a great person not have success, but there's no point in sugar coating the situation either. Maybe this is just step 1/team 1 of his coaching learning process.
    Couldn't have said it better. I just don't think Frank knows how to implement an effective offensive scheme that makes the most of the player's abilities.
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  13. #111
    Member Ace E.Anderson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    The issue isn't the players, it's the types of plays they are running. For example one common situation is the roll off the high post across the FT line and down the right side of the lane. The dribbler gets cut off and tries to throw back across the lane to the high post area and it gets stolen. This is not a bad player choice because it happens too often to too many players.
    It doesn't help when you're throwing that pass to unathletic bigs who need the ball in perfect position. If this were an athletic big then this play would have a chance to work, because the big could come down the lane for a huge Jam/finish in traffic. Instead this play is designed to get a big an open 16 footer which can be a good shot BUT this set is also one of the worst in basketball because there is no way anybody can get back on defense in case of a turnover/long rebound. The only man back is the aforementioned slow/unathletic big that the shot was meant for in the first place. MIL ate that play up last night to the point that I never want to see it again lol.

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  15. #112

    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Weren't we always supposed to sign Mike Brown? He's available-

    *is shot*

  16. #113
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Ransom View Post
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    Weren't we always supposed to sign Mike Brown? He's available-

    *is shot*
    You want to try the "Princeton" offense now? Well, that won't work......

  17. #114
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    You want to try the "Princeton" offense now? Well, that won't work......
    Mike Brown doesn't know the Princeton offense, that's why they hired Eddie Jordan.

  18. #115
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Maybe we should just bring in a new coach every year.

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  20. #116
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    It doesn't help when you're throwing that pass to unathletic bigs who need the ball in perfect position. If this were an athletic big then this play would have a chance to work, because the big could come down the lane for a huge Jam/finish in traffic. Instead this play is designed to get a big an open 16 footer which can be a good shot BUT this set is also one of the worst in basketball because there is no way anybody can get back on defense in case of a turnover/long rebound. The only man back is the aforementioned slow/unathletic big that the shot was meant for in the first place. MIL ate that play up last night to the point that I never want to see it again lol.
    And it doesn't help when your bigs are getting the ball directly in front of the rim, and they can't score.

    I've been saying they need to knock down shots, but I've never said that was THE fix. Hitting shots would go a long way to cure the ills of the offense though. There's going to be problems, the offensive system wasn't the best last year and this years system isn't much different, if any.

    But what system you're running is irrelevant when you miss 2ft bunny after 2ft bunny. The best offensive system in the world won't fix that problem.

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  22. #117
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Maybe we should just bring in a new coach every year.
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  23. #118
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Maybe we should just bring in a new coach every year.
    That is what teams with poor management do...... Jim Buss won't talk to Magic Johnson or his own GM so they make bad coaching hires like Mike Brown. They just made another one.....

  24. #119
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Maybe we should just bring in a new coach every year.
    So what DO you think a coach is responsible for? Do you think the offense has shown itself adequate and fails only due to execution? Are our players being used the best they could be within the lineup, and are the offensive sets capable of helping them do their best?

    Unless the answer to every one of those questions is a resounding "yes", you HAVE to at least LOOK at the coaching.
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  25. #120

    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    What's different this season's offense from last season? Other than Danny clearing space on one side of the lane because you can't double of him, nothing that I can see. It's the same poor offense we had last year, the team just seems uncertain and hesitant in finishing the bunnies this season?

  26. #121
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Cousy47 View Post
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    What's different this season's offense from last season? Other than Danny clearing space on one side of the lane because you can't double of him, nothing that I can see. It's the same poor offense we had last year, the team just seems uncertain and hesitant in finishing the bunnies this season?
    That "same" team was going to move back some in the field because other teams got better with their starting units.... But it shouldn't be this bad. All teams deal with injuries. Last year was lucky and magical. It may never happen again....

  27. #122

    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Cousy47 View Post
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    What's different this season's offense from last season? Other than Danny clearing space on one side of the lane because you can't double of him, nothing that I can see. It's the same poor offense we had last year, the team just seems uncertain and hesitant in finishing the bunnies this season?
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we have the fifth most efficient offense in the entire NBA last season? If so, did it need to change? Sure, it wasn't pretty to watch. And sure, it could be more complicated thus not as easy to defend. But did anyone consider that maybe this team as constructed can't handle "complicated." We know Frank and the other coaches tried to teach them screening. How many of our players do that well? Oh yea, just West. We know he's talked constantly about moving the ball. How many players do that well? .....(I'll wait) We know he's talked about moving without the ball, how many players do that well? Just Hill. (And we're making him play PG, so he doesn't even get to do that as much.) You can not run a pretty or complicated offense if your players are unable to do those things.

    And more importantly, I don't think people realize how big of a deal not having Granger is. Particularly when no one other than Lance and Tyler a bit has stepped up their game to try and help the loss.

  28. #123
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Sookie for what I can remember I think it was the other way around, the Pacers offense was on the bottom 5 last year, I remember reading articles trying to explain how a team with such a bad offense was winning so much, do you remember the games were the Pacers won even though they had a horrible shooting percentage?

  29. #124
    Member Ace E.Anderson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Sookie for what I can remember I think it was the other way around, the Pacers offense was on the bottom 5 last year, I remember reading articles trying to explain how a team with such a bad offense was winning so much, do you remember the games were the Pacers won even though they had a horrible shooting percentage?
    From what I remember we were one of the only teams in the league, if not the only team in the league, that had a top 10 offense and defense in terms of efficiency.

    Edit: We were 7th in offensive rating and 9th in defensive rating

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    Last edited by Ace E.Anderson; 11-15-2012 at 03:19 PM.

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  31. #125
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    I have not read through this entire thread, so maybe this has been mentioned. But what we have to figure out is whether the players have tuned Frank out. I find it hard to believe that they have, but stranger things have happened. I don't see evidence that they have. also once you start losing it can snowball

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