View Poll Results: Coach Frank Vogel

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  • Yes he is the best coach for this team and can lead us to the ECF's and beyond

    33 28.70%
  • No - great guy but in over his coaching experience

    25 21.74%
  • Not sure

    23 20.00%
  • Brian Shaw might be the best coach for this team

    30 26.09%
  • both Vogel and Shaw are not the right coach for this team and we need to find one this offseason

    4 3.48%
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Thread: Coach Frank Vogel

  1. #51
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    There's another somewhat young (by coaching standards) former NBA player that has been putting in his time and dues as an assistant (in other words, not a Mark Jackson prima donna type) and has been in the running for several HC positions over the past couple of seasons. He's a film junkie and has shown to be a solid x-and-o assistant. He also seems to relate well to players, even troubled ones. Those that have paid attention to me at PD over the past eight years know *exactly* who I'm talking about.


  2. #52
    Member Eleazar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I think Shaw is overhyped because of the Phil Jackson factor. Jackson's assistants were great assistants, but not really good HCs. I'm not inclined to see Shaw any differently until he proves otherwise, preferably someplace else.

    There's another somewhat young (by coaching standards) former NBA player that has been putting in his time and dues as an assistant (in other words, not a Mark Jackson prima donna type) and has been in the running for several HC positions over the past couple of seasons. He's a film junkie and has shown to be a solid x-and-o assistant. He also seems to relate well to players, even troubled ones. Those that have paid attention to me at PD over the past eight years know *exactly* who I'm talking about.

    But if its another year away, that's fine. I'm neither worried about Vogel nor convinced he's a long-term solution. He's been a breath of fresh air when we needed one, and those types of coaches do have value at a particular stage of a team's development.
    Ewing? I really have no idea who, I just know his name has been mentioned before.

  3. #53
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Chuck Person, ChicagoJ likes him.

  4. #54

    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Disagree. I think Vogel can teach these guys how to move, cut, and where to move and cut. And he can demand they do it.
    He spent the summer trying to teach them to set screens. And the only person who is marginally (and I do mean marginally) improved is Hans.

    Coaches can teach that stuff. But it's sad that an NBA coach has to teach fundamentals. And I think players are good or bad at it, and we happen to have a team full of players that are bad at moving the ball, moving without the ball, and screening. (Except for Hill with the first two.)

  5. #55
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Chuck Person, ChicagoJ likes him.
    Can't be Rifleman*, he's not a film guy nor an x-and-o guy. Is it Mike Budenholzer? Can't remember.

    As to Vogel - I thought the Pacers did the right thing by checking out other coaching options before re-upping him last year. That said, now that they've committed to him, it's way too early to punt. Vogel is a young coach, both in years and experience. In a lot of ways, he's still finding his path. Rough patches like this are to be expected.

    I think the higher expectations this year may be getting to Vogel. He is exhibiting some classic coach-under-pressure behavior. Leaning on his starters/vets too long, throwing out a lot of new lineup combos, etc. Then again, sticking with a set rotation didn't work out so hot last year, did it? And of course Granger being out could throw a spanner in the best-laid plans.

    I'd like to say that I'm confident Vogel can turn it around, but I'm not. I sure think he deserves a chance to do so though. I wouldn't even entertain the thought of replacing him until after the season at least.

    Some blame has to go to the FO as well. When we signed Mahinmi and Green, I said at the time that while they did well in limited minutes, it was asking a lot to expect them to take a major rotation role right away. Right now I think we're seeing the growing pains as Mahinmi and Green adjust to far larger roles than what they were used to. I'm enormously disappointed with Augustin though - I really thought he'd have a bigger (positive) impact.

    * EDIT: So I guess I don't follow Jay's posts that well , a quick search shows that Chuck Person is the guy he's referring to
    Last edited by wintermute; 11-09-2012 at 03:26 AM.

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  7. #56
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    I wonder how much could be fixed by simply staggering the bench substitutions a little?

  8. #57
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    I adore Frank, genuinely do. He's exactly what the players, franchise, and fanbase needed after JOB. It sounds far worse than I mean it, but the guy's an ultimate towel waver. He's more than optimistic, he's a fanboy. I think he's gotten in over his head. I'm not going to hang it all on him because I think our talent's been overrated for a good while now, but there have got to be better schematic coaches.

    There's no way Frank could "step down" back into an assistant role, but it'd be for the best. But if there's a guy he'd probably do it for it's Jerry Sloan. And Sloan's a great fit.

    edit: and in absolutely no way am I saying don't give Frank the chance to play out the year and see what happens. but we end up at 40ish wins or something, how you feeling about coming back to Indiana Sloan?
    Last edited by Heisenberg; 11-09-2012 at 04:29 AM.

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  10. #58

    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Na, I don't mind Vogel, the Pacers offense is just really boring to watch right now. Mostly it's George Hill dribbling :/

  11. #59
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    I adore Frank, genuinely do. He's exactly what the players, franchise, and fanbase needed after JOB. It sounds far worse than I mean it, but the guy's an ultimate towel waver. He's more than optimistic, he's a fanboy. I think he's gotten in over his head. I'm not going to hang it all on him because I think our talent's been overrated for a good while now, but there have got to be better schematic coaches.

    There's no way Frank could "step down" back into an assistant role, but it'd be for the best. But if there's a guy he'd probably do it for it's Jerry Sloan. And Sloan's a great fit.

    edit: and in absolutely no way am I saying don't give Frank the chance to play out the year and see what happens. but we end up at 40ish wins or something, how you feeling about coming back to Indiana Sloan?
    We definitely have a team that fits right up Sloan's alley too. I really like Frank, but I think he should be an assistant coach, not a head coach.
    With the #3 pick in the 2015 draft, your Indiana Pacers!

  12. #60
    bleed Blue & Gold PacersPride's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    in some ways i see this as similar to the manning situation. everybody loved 18 but bottom line is this is a business and the owner has to do what is ultimately in the best interests of the Franchise.

    we cannot go back to the Fieldhouse only selling out half the arena or were not going to have a team before you know it. i like Frank. i liked 18.. would love to have seen him come back, but ultimately it was best for both the Colts and Manning to part ways.

    i think Frank as ive said below has a bright future. he would be perfect for a rebuilding team or a team that is not really needing a coach.. (ie a Miami, or the pacers from 2000; just a vet group). the Pacers are kinda right there in the middle.


    the young guys like Hibbert and George need the best coaching the Pacers can give them. I love Franks optimism and hard work but the lack of experience concerns me. we have the right this ship soon.

    im not even sure Shaw is the answer, i just want someone who has more credentials on his resume. Frank is a young coach.. he will get a shot as an assistant somwhere i believe.

  13. #61
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    No... I don't think the little Red-X box has much of a coaching career left in front of him.

    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  14. #62
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Ewing? I really have no idea who, I just know his name has been mentioned before.

    I wouldn't mind Ewing on staff. Outside of Bill Russell, not many C's have been great head coaches. As players, they don't really have to see the whole floor or everything that's going on, they just have to dominate the middle. For former players, that doesn't translate as well to the HC spot but can make for a nice assistant. Ewing could be an exception to that rule, but I'd prefer to use him a different way if I were putting together the next coaching staff, whenever that might be.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  15. #63
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Maybe Ewing should be an assistant coach to get Hibbert's and Mahimni's skills up and get their heads in the game!

    I can't vote on this quite yet, I really like Frank, My heart says ride him for the year and hope he proves that he can be a head caoch in this league, but my head says how quick can we get another head coach. I'm so torn, I'm glad I don't have to make that decision.
    .

    Frank Vogel says "Killer instinct, start strong, build a lead and then step on their throats."

  16. #64
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    The problems that Vogel has are not new. These are issues that had me hesitate last summer.

  17. #65
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    That is a nice theory you came up there, good thing I didn't come up with it because it is pure ****.

    Vogel had an offensive scheme last year that very few people were satisfied with last year. It is a scheme designed for people to beat their man either one v one or in a two man game. It wasn't an offense that really got more than two people involved at any single time. It was a big reason why we struggled to get open shots. This year we have the exact same offense that is easy to defend. Again the players are having to overcome the offense to win games. The difference between last year and this year, we have no Granger and we came out of the gates slow. Nothing I would worry about. Just we would look a lot better if we had a scheme that helped the players instead of relying on the players to do everything by themselves.
    So the same core group that overcame Vogel's terrible offensive scheme last year and had a great record all of the sudden isn't talented enough to do so. Like I said, either Granger is an MVP canidadte with his worth to this team or the same players that excelled last year despite this "terrible system" have forgotton how to tearly on this season.

  18. #66
    Member Eleazar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    So the same core group that overcame Vogel's terrible offensive scheme last year and had a great record all of the sudden isn't talented enough to do so. Like I said, either Granger is an MVP canidadte with his worth to this team or the same players that excelled last year despite this "terrible system" have forgotton how to tearly on this season.
    Or like I said they just started slow. It happens, not everyone starts out guns blazing.

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  20. #67

    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    I'll bet we would have the top Coaches in the league clambering to come here if we were to fire our 3rd coach in a row, before their contract was completed! There are times when firing a choach and bringing in a new one will turn a team around. Oh yeah, that's what Vogel did. If you have a very talented group of players who will adjust and change their role on a team, and do anything asked of them to win, then who the coach is doesn't make that much difference. IMO, firing RC because he "lost" that group of misfits set this franchise back years, and firing more coaches won't help the teams position. Maybe Frank needs to be let go. Or maybe he needs better assisants or better players?

  21. #68
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Cousy47 View Post
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    I'll bet we would have the top Coaches in the league clambering to come here if we were to fire our 3rd coach in a row, before their contract was completed! There are times when firing a choach and bringing in a new one will turn a team around. Oh yeah, that's what Vogel did. If you have a very talented group of players who will adjust and change their role on a team, and do anything asked of them to win, then who the coach is doesn't make that much difference. IMO, firing RC because he "lost" that group of misfits set this franchise back years, and firing more coaches won't help the teams position. Maybe Frank needs to be let go. Or maybe he needs better assisants or better players?
    It would be very difficult for the Pacers to get a top coach because they are a small market team with no superstars and not much hope of getting one. A hot assistant is about the best one could hope for..... ...

  22. #69
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    no way do i want to see Vogel let go this season. Coach Frank Vogel deserves a fair chance, its very misfortunate for us to lose Granger 3 mos.

    *by the way, didnt Granger realize this sooner in the offseason with the knee. Colin Cowherd was talking about that the other day where nba players like to enjoy their summer than deal with the medical isssues in preseason. who knows.



    Coach Vogel definitely deserves a fair chance. but the offense has not looked good. reading the Espn article about whats wrong w the Pacers has me now furthermore questioning the FO. I will not go there, but i supported Bird and still think it sucks he left.

    intersting now that Mike Brown got fired who i thought pacers would have pursued. i like Shaw. Magic Johnson was on Espn talkking about Shaw as the next best thing to Phil Jackson.

  23. #70
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Vogel deserves a year of patience from management.

    He does not deserve a year of non-criticism from Pacers Digest, nor even a month. Nobody gets that.
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  24. #71
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Vogel deserves a year of patience from management.

    He does not deserve a year of non-criticism from Pacers Digest, nor even a month. Nobody gets that.
    I agree. I really do. But I find it amazing that Vogel takes this team that had been sinking with Jim...took them to the playoffs...then a great regular season record...and into the second round the next year. Without a superstar. Now he doesn't have Danny Granger and he's going through a rough patch and people think he needs to be an assistant now.

    Honestly, he deserves more respect. You can disagree with his methods, but the young man has delivered. He's delivered a lot more than that guy with white bushy sideburns after 4 long years...

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  26. #72
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Barkley on NBATV right now giving Rifleman some major love and endorsing him to the Lakers new HC. Very mixed feelings.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  27. #73
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    After this game, I'd like to change my vote to "in over his head".

    I can't help but think many of the issues are due to terrible preparation and coaching. This team has not been prepared for a game yet, hasn't made any quality adjustments.

    I'm fairly despondent at this point. Hard to have any faith in these players and this coach.

  28. #74
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    I still believe in Vogel.

    I blame the front office for this mess.

    Quite frankly, being in every single game except the Spurs game is a testament to how good he is given how bad the team is outside the 4 starters from last season. And even then, it's not his fault that Hibbert got paid and decided he'd rather choreograph a stupid dance at the mall. You'd he'd more time in the gym but judging by the way he's played so far, I'm not sure he spent anytime in the gym. 10pts, 4rebs and Love didn't even play. Kevin Love probably would have grabbed 30 boards.

  29. #75
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by TOP View Post
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    I still believe in Vogel.

    I blame the front office for this mess.

    Quite frankly, being in every single game except the Spurs game is a testament to how good he is given how bad the team is outside the 4 starters from last season. And even then, it's not his fault that Hibbert got paid and decided he'd rather choreograph a stupid dance at the mall. You'd he'd more time in the gym but judging by the way he's played so far, I'm not sure he spent anytime in the gym. 10pts, 4rebs and Love didn't even play. Kevin Love probably would have grabbed 30 boards.
    He sure has been anything but professional. You can get away with the loveable goofball schtick when things are going well...but when things aren't going well, people will turn on you. He's definitely going to experience that, he's being paid to be a franchise player, and he's performing like a 4th option. But damn if that dance wasn't cool.

    EDIT: And I love your avi. Tom Haverford for the win.

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