View Poll Results: Coach Frank Vogel

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  • Yes he is the best coach for this team and can lead us to the ECF's and beyond

    33 28.70%
  • No - great guy but in over his coaching experience

    25 21.74%
  • Not sure

    23 20.00%
  • Brian Shaw might be the best coach for this team

    30 26.09%
  • both Vogel and Shaw are not the right coach for this team and we need to find one this offseason

    4 3.48%
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Thread: Coach Frank Vogel

  1. #26
    bleed Blue & Gold PacersPride's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    These Mike Davis comparisons gotta go. Davis took over a good IU team. Vogel took over a crap Pacers team. The obvious major difference.
    it wasnt that great of an IU team. from what i remember they got pretty lucky in who they played on the way to the final 4. kinda like the Pacers last year in playing a D12 less Magic squad.

    the comparision is not based on team talent but that Davis was in an interim role who far exceeded expectations and therefore was given additional time to succeed when in all reality he was not the best coach for the team.

  2. #27
    On the Vogel Wagon gummy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Vogel's offense sucks but I'm not going to blame him yet, he said he was going to make the offense less complicated yesterday, whatever that means?
    I think it means he tried to implement a system that the guys have shown they can't run successfully in a game situation. They aren't making crisp cuts, they aren't making good passes. They aren't setting consistently good screens. We all know (well, maybe not all, but those of us who followed off-season coverage closely) that they worked on at least one of those things - screening drills. Vogel talked about how he wanted them to set good, hard screens. Tyler has shown some improvement in that area, but it's not consistent. Vogel cannot go out there and set the screen his damn self. The best he can do is keep reinforcing what he wants and putting them through the drills that will make it more likely that they'll form the habits he wants.

    The idea that we need to simplify the offense is really not a good sign re: our basketball IQ as a team, that's for sure.

    I do think this is more on the players than it is on Frank. But I still voted I'm not sure, because I need to see how Coach responds to what is happening now.
    Last edited by gummy; 11-08-2012 at 04:13 PM.
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  4. #28
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Not sure its Vogel's fault the FO downgraded our overall talent
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  6. #29
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Doesn't help that we still cannot set proper screens/picks.

    If it's not the coach, I'm going to say that our BBIQ is rather low.

    Either way, I expect us to improve, but by how much, I don't know. Other teams really improved their roster. Pacers played well above reality due to injuries that plagued other teams. Looks like instead of coming back down to earth, the Pacers are experiencing a huge crash down to earth.
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  7. #30
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    Not sure its Vogel's fault the FO downgraded our overall talent
    I don't agree. Ian is much better than a 6'8 PF playing C. Ian will be fine. Same with Green.

    DJ is a definite downgrade. A huuuuuge downgrade. Still don't think Hans is playing as well as some of you think. Still can't hit a shot and still can't rebound.
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  9. #31
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    it wasnt that great of an IU team. from what i remember they got pretty lucky in who they played on the way to the final 4. kinda like the Pacers last year in playing a D12 less Magic squad.
    I'm not the biggest Davis supporter out there, but any team that comes back from 17 down against a STACKED Duke squad ranked #1 in the country is not "lucky".
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  11. #32

    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Vogel's offense sucks but I'm not going to blame him yet, he said he was going to make the offense less complicated yesterday, whatever that means? either way I think the blame should go to the front office for not giving Vogel the right pieces to make it work, they knew they needed a go to scorer and didn't get one, they knew they needed a rebounder/defender and didn't get one, if you look at the Pacers signings other than Roy and Hill(to be evaluated) they signed the equivalent of Travis Diener, Kareem Rush and Solomon Jones, the amazing part is that they did it by using the rest of cap space they had and not only that but they gave long term deals to two of them.

    BUT Walsh knows what he's doing. That's why he left Bird with a mess when he left. I was totally against Walsh being brought back, voiced my opinion strongly about it. I haven't changed my mind either about Walsh being in charge, just trying to be patient and watch what happens. I just hope when Walsh finally leaves the Pacers that his decisions don't cause the Pacers problems for years to come...... like last time.

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  13. #33
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    I don't like the options. I want a choice that says with the right players he certainly could lead them to a title.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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  15. #34
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I don't like the options. I want a choice that says with the right players he certainly could lead them to a title.
    with the right players even Eric Spolstera can lead a team to the NBA finals. difference b/t miami and indiana is we do not have the ability to attact those players whereas the right coach is a little more of a realistic possibility.

    i like Frank as much you all do.. but i believe this team has the talent. we just dont have a coach like the Bulls do.

  16. #35
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    with the right players even Eric Spolstera can lead a team to the NBA finals. difference b/t miami and indiana is we do not have the ability to attact those players whereas the right coach is a little more of a realistic possibility.

    i like Frank as much you all do.. but i believe this team has the talent. we just dont have a coach like the Bulls do.
    I'll just agree to disagree then.

    I don't think the talent (with Danny missing) is there for any real significant championship hopes. If Danny was here we still wouldn't win a title but we would be in the conversation.

    But I respect your opinion of saying the talent is there to be better than what we currently are, which I would agree with that point.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  17. #36
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    I've been pleased with Vogel and how his coaching has translated to this team's style of play. The fact that he was a strong candidate for COTY says something.

    Currently, I have no problem with him being the coach. There's been some times where the offense and drawn up plays look like a mess, but for the most part, he's done well coaching a team with no so called "superstars".

    A coach can only do so much, but I believe he can get this team to the ECF with everyone healthy and at their best.

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  19. #37

    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by duke dynamite View Post
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    Give me elite players and I can win a Championship.

    Example: Erik Spoelstra, Doc Rivers
    ? Doc Rivers is one of the best coaches in the game.

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  21. #38
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Coach Vogel isnt the greatest x and O coach, his offense is too predictable, throw down low and pretty much it, the new bobcats coach out coached him, he doubled n tripled low post n vogel never adjusted, offense looked lost, last year coach of heat figured out vogel style n shut us down the rest of that series, and why are teams getting so many steals from us by swatting at the ball while its low? Our defense isnt doing the same, come on vogel!!!

  22. #39

    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    We're talking about a guy who was a legitimate contender for COY last season. Who has only been a coach for 1 and 1/2 seasons. Who doesn't have his best player. And it's only 5 games into the season. (And we've won two of them.) Come on guys.

    Bottom line is, I don't think Vogel coaches a pretty offense (although last season it was efficient.) And I don't think we have the players to run a pretty offense. (We don't even have a starting point guard.) I've noticed a little bit of improvement from PG with moving without the basketball. And Hill does. (But he doesn't do it well.) No one moves, no one sets good screens, and the ball gets stuck, and if that's what the players on the team do, there's nothing a coach can do to make the offense look prettier.

    Now, if we can make some of our outside shots, the inside/outside game can be efficient. But someone needs to step up there, because that was Danny Granger's job.

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  24. #40
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    We're talking about a guy who was a legitimate contender for COY last season. Who has only been a coach for 1 and 1/2 seasons. Who doesn't have his best player. And it's only 5 games into the season. (And we've won two of them.) Come on guys.

    Bottom line is, I don't think Vogel coaches a pretty offense (although last season it was efficient.) And I don't think we have the players to run a pretty offense. (We don't even have a starting point guard.) I've noticed a little bit of improvement from PG with moving without the basketball. And Hill does. (But he doesn't do it well.) No one moves, no one sets good screens, and the ball gets stuck, and if that's what the players on the team do, there's nothing a coach can do to make the offense look prettier.

    Now, if we can make some of our outside shots, the inside/outside game can be efficient. But someone needs to step up there, because that was Danny Granger's job.
    The COY stuff is a not relevant imo. how many coaches in the last ten seasons have won COY and been let go the following season. Sam Mitchell comes to mind and I believe there are others (Carlisle as well i believe). True Vogel has been coach for only 1.5 seasons. If you can spin that as a positive and buy it then go for it.

    I would love to eat crow on this one. im not even saying Vogel is a bad coach. I guess im just skipping past the trial phase were giving Vogel because we all are still very satisfied with anyone other than a coach who constructs on offense predicated on a PF shooting 3's.

    Are the Pacers a team that can win a championship.. i think were gettting there. im looking at the bigger picture than just 5 games. to beat the best were gonna need the best and since we probably will not have the best talent on the floor in an NBA Finals were going to have to out-coach the opponent.

    I believe Vogel is a good coach for a team rebuilding. Pacers are a team competing now. we have our core intact and we need to MAX it to the fullest.

    it was only when Larry Bird and Carlisle took the reigns did this team make a finals appearance. we got the most out of Smits during that era of Pacers basketball.

    to get the most out of Paul George, Roy Hibbert and the remaining talent we need a veteran well seasoned coach. Jerry Sloan comes to mind immediately although im not sure if he willing to come back but i use him as an example.

    I really like Vogel, but im gonna be blunt. I would prefer Shaw as the HC and Vogel the assistant.

    bottom line:

    Vogel/Shaw need to fix this offense and fast without Danny Granger. Its not going to be easy for a coach with 1.5 years experience.

    Go Pacers!

  25. #41
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    We're talking about a guy who was a legitimate contender for COY last season. Who has only been a coach for 1 and 1/2 seasons. Who doesn't have his best player. And it's only 5 games into the season. (And we've won two of them.) Come on guys.
    Agree.


    Bottom line is, I don't think Vogel coaches a pretty offense (although last season it was efficient.) And I don't think we have the players to run a pretty offense.
    Agree.


    No one moves, no one sets good screens, and the ball gets stuck, and if that's what the players on the team do, there's nothing a coach can do to make the offense look prettier.
    Disagree. I think Vogel can teach these guys how to move, cut, and where to move and cut. And he can demand they do it.
    .

    .

    .

    .


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  26. #42

    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I'm not convinced Vogel is the long-term answer, never have been. I'm also not ready to give up on him. I'm hoping, though, that Brian Shaw gets a job somewhere else this next offseason so that he's out of the picture. Let somebody else deal with him.

    I've got somebody different that I want in here after Shaw and Vogel are gone.

    I don't have as much of a problem with Vogel's x's and o's as the rest of you. I also didn't have a problem with Carlisle's x's and o's even when I wanted Rick to be run out of town.

    I don't feel like Frank has lost control of the team. But I'm not sure how high Frank's ceiling is right now or over the next couple of years. To me, this was a bigger concern two years ago when our team had no mental toughness. Having West and Hill take over the leader's role has made me less concerned about Frank's lack of experience on the hotseat.
    I'm not trying to indicate that Vogel should go or that Shaw should replace him. I am just genuinely curious to know why you hope Brian Shaw leaves and/or think he would be a bad choice to be this team's head coach? Who would you like to see coach this team after Vogel?

  27. #43
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Man, people have short memories and a quick trigger.

    Vogel leads the Pacers to their first .500+ season in years and into the playoffs the last two seasons. He loses his best offensive player and is one game under .500 after 5 games into the season. Now people want him out. He's no Rick Carlisle at the moment, but the players love him and with more experience we may have a great coach. If anything, he deserves at least another year without this talk.

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  29. #44
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Man, people have short memories and a quick trigger.

    Vogel leads the Pacers to their first .500+ season in years and into the playoffs the last two seasons. He loses his best offensive player and is one game under .500 after 5 games into the season. Now people want him out. He's no Rick Carlisle at the moment, but the players love him and with more experience we may have a great coach. If anything, he deserves at least another year without this talk.
    THis has nothing to do with a short memory as none of the complaints are new, just people aren't giving him the benefit of the doubt anymore.

  30. #45
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Man, people have short memories and a quick trigger.

    Vogel leads the Pacers to their first .500+ season in years and into the playoffs the last two seasons. He loses his best offensive player and is one game under .500 after 5 games into the season. Now people want him out. He's no Rick Carlisle at the moment, but the players love him and with more experience we may have a great coach. If anything, he deserves at least another year without this talk.
    I agree, Vogel deserves a chance with a full training camp. Unfortunately, he will not have Granger for awhile. If he can coach this team up to a 5th seed or better by All-star break i think you can t really find criticsm.

    im concerned with our younger players and giving them the best coaching possible. thats certainly no slight on Coach Vogel. I think he has a bright future.

  31. #46
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by RWB View Post
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    I don't know but sure seems like Hibbert hasn't been running through any walls for Frank lately.
    What do you want him to do? Obviously he loves playing for Vogel, but he's not going to keep talking about how great he is like when he first took over nearly 2 years ago. People know who Vogel is now.
    Last edited by Trophy; 11-08-2012 at 10:34 PM.

  32. #47
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Vogel is only going to get better as a head coach. The guy works tirelessly on getting his team better.

    Heck, he's a very good coach now. Finishing third to be COTY isn't some fluke.

    He's not perfect as no coach is or anyone is. He gets out coached here and there as does every coach on some nights.

    In the end, we win as a team and we lose as a team.

    Some people really need to get a hold of themselves. Slow starts happen to even the best teams in all sports.
    Last edited by Trophy; 11-08-2012 at 10:37 PM.

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  34. #48
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Trophy View Post
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    What do you want him to do? Obviously he loves playing for Vogel, but he's not going to keep talking about how great he is like when he first took over nearly 2 years ago. People know who Vogel is now.
    I think he was trying to imply that Hibbert is no longer playing with the fire he sometimes displayed earlier under Vogel's direction - that the relationship isn't motivating him the way it used to.

    I think it's too early to say that. Maybe Roy is just doing his "looks great offensively, goes into a slump," thing in reverse this year.
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  36. #49
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by gummy View Post
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    I think he was trying to imply that Hibbert is no longer playing with the fire he sometimes displayed earlier under Vogel's direction - that the relationship isn't motivating him the way it used to.

    I think it's too early to say that. Maybe Roy is just doing his "looks great offensively, goes into a slump," thing in reverse this year.
    It's definitely on Roy not Vogel. Roy's off to a slow start and is still getting adjusted to the new season. He should brush off the cobwebs soon.

    Roy's still plenty motivated under Vogel. Maybe not like the honeymoon period when he first took over, but simply a coach and player with good chemistry relationship.

  37. #50
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Young View Post
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    I'm not trying to indicate that Vogel should go or that Shaw should replace him. I am just genuinely curious to know why you hope Brian Shaw leaves and/or think he would be a bad choice to be this team's head coach? Who would you like to see coach this team after Vogel?
    I think Shaw is overhyped because of the Phil Jackson factor. Jackson's assistants were great assistants, but not really good HCs. I'm not inclined to see Shaw any differently until he proves otherwise, preferably someplace else.

    There's another somewhat young (by coaching standards) former NBA player that has been putting in his time and dues as an assistant (in other words, not a Mark Jackson prima donna type) and has been in the running for several HC positions over the past couple of seasons. He's a film junkie and has shown to be a solid x-and-o assistant. He also seems to relate well to players, even troubled ones. Those that have paid attention to me at PD over the past eight years know *exactly* who I'm talking about.

    But if its another year away, that's fine. I'm neither worried about Vogel nor convinced he's a long-term solution. He's been a breath of fresh air when we needed one, and those types of coaches do have value at a particular stage of a team's development.
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