View Poll Results: Coach Frank Vogel

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  • Yes he is the best coach for this team and can lead us to the ECF's and beyond

    33 28.70%
  • No - great guy but in over his coaching experience

    25 21.74%
  • Not sure

    23 20.00%
  • Brian Shaw might be the best coach for this team

    30 26.09%
  • both Vogel and Shaw are not the right coach for this team and we need to find one this offseason

    4 3.48%
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Thread: Coach Frank Vogel

  1. #126
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Sookie for what I can remember I think it was the other way around, the Pacers offense was on the bottom 5 last year, I remember reading articles trying to explain how a team with such a bad offense was winning so much, do you remember the games were the Pacers won even though they had a horrible shooting percentage?
    Our offensive rebounding, FTA, and FT% were all excellent. So despite a poor FG%, we still scored well on per-shot or per-possession metrics.

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  3. #127
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    Our offensive rebounding, FTA, and FT% were all excellent. So despite a poor FG%, we still scored well on per-shot or per-possession metrics.
    When your players can't spit in the ocean, there are more offensive rebounds available...... So, that is a product of the poor FG%....

  4. #128
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    When your players can't spit in the ocean, there are more offensive rebounds available...... So, that is a product of the poor FG%....
    Very true. However, offensive rebound PERCENT is not. I'm not arguing about why we *should* be successful, I'm talking about why we *were* successful. It is why despite having an offense that was inefficient and ugly to the eye, we actually scored at an above average clip.

    Last Year's Offensive Rebound Ratio Stats
    Last edited by aamcguy; 11-15-2012 at 03:51 PM.

  5. #129
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    Our offensive rebounding, FTA, and FT% were all excellent. So despite a poor FG%, we still scored well on per-shot or per-possession metrics.
    So their field goal % was as bad as this year and yet they still won games right? now the only difference is that the Pacers are missing another player to play hero ball right?

    Again I remember reading articles were they called what the Pacers were doing as "never been done before" or something like that, NBA gurus didn't have an answer for how a team could still win while having a bad to horrible shooting % and a horrible offense.

  6. #130
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    So their field goal % was as bad as this year and yet they still won games right? now the only difference is that the Pacers are missing another player to play hero ball right?

    Again I remember reading articles were they called what the Pacers were doing as "never been done before" or something like that, NBA gurus didn't have an answer for how a team could still win while having a bad to horrible shooting % and a horrible offense.
    We are shooting far worse than last season, and we are turning the ball over more. It's kind of hard to compare all of this season's stats to last because stats are all leaning toward the defensive side for all teams atm, but we are the worst shooting team in the NBA. Period. We're not generating turnovers, and we're not making shots. The team is not playing as well as they did last year period, but the loss og Granger doesn't help.

    I'm not arguing that the system is a good one or a sustainable one (who really knows that?), but it was quite effective last year.
    Last edited by aamcguy; 11-15-2012 at 04:00 PM.

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  8. #131
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I have not read through this entire thread, so maybe this has been mentioned. But what we have to figure out is whether the players have tuned Frank out. I find it hard to believe that they have, but stranger things have happened. I don't see evidence that they have. also once you start losing it can snowball
    The Lakers made a quick decision to replace their coach. It is past time already, give Vogel the gate. He will become an assistant again but he will never again be an NBA head coach in my opinion. He should have gotten the job in the first place.....

  9. #132
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    there is no reason to let go of Frank Vogel before Granger gets back but if there is one it would be in an effort to not lose Brian Shaw. no interest in Mike Brown at this point in the season.

    Sloan is not walking out of retirement to fix this cluster****. It is only fair to keep Vogel and see what happens when Granger returns. Let the Pacers decide this offseason.
    /
    * i still do not understand why Granger waited until training camp to take care of his knee.?

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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    * i still do not understand why Granger waited until training camp to take care of his knee.?
    Because they didn't know how serious it was. It is kind of obvious, if they new how bad they would not hesitate to do something about it. They are not stupid.

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  12. #134
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Because they didn't know how serious it was. It is kind of obvious, if they new how bad they would not hesitate to do something about it. They are not stupid.
    Well they did something about it(the German treatment) and it didn't work.

  13. #135
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Well they did something about it(the German treatment) and it didn't work.
    Yeah, it isn't like they didn't do anything. The worst-case scenario was realized at the start of the season.

  14. #136

    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Vogel is being stubborn about the offense. It has to change. He can stay coach, but the offense must change. You have Brian Shaw there. You are a great defensive coach. Run the Triangle with Brian Shaw running the offense, and you focus on motivation and defense.
    Removed link to my website after a PM from Able.

  15. #137
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Because they didn't know how serious it was. It is kind of obvious, if they new how bad they would not hesitate to do something about it. They are not stupid.
    He was progressing okay until the preseason game against CHI where he had a sharp pain in his knee after a layup attempt. It's easy to forget but he looked relatively sharp in his first preseason action against the Cavs.

  16. #138
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    I have the perfect solution for the offense:

    Just go that way really fast (toward our own basket). If something gets in your way, turn.

    /I hope at least one person gets that.
    Lance + Starting SG = Awesome

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  17. #139
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by notque View Post
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    Vogel is being stubborn about the offense. It has to change. He can stay coach, but the offense must change. You have Brian Shaw there. You are a great defensive coach. Run the Triangle with Brian Shaw running the offense, and you focus on motivation and defense.
    Vogel doesn't strike me as the person that is stubborn. He's made constant changes to the lineup. His problem is that he simply doesn't know what to do.
    Lance + Starting SG = Awesome

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  18. #140
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    The Lakers made a quick decision to replace their coach. It is past time already, give Vogel the gate. He will become an assistant again but he will never again be an NBA head coach in my opinion. He should have gotten the job in the first place.....
    OK, but then how long will you want the next coach to be our coach. I think a lot of people in this forum won't be happy with any coach after the first year

  19. #141
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    OK, but then how long will you want the next coach to be our coach. I think a lot of people in this forum won't be happy with any coach after the first year
    I certainly agree with you about all of that. However, this losing streak is the opportunity to gracefully dump Vogel and get a real coach. I wouldn't mind trying Shaw for the rest of the season. Vogel just is not an NBA coach and he never will be.....

  20. #142
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    I'm beginning to wonder if shackling the players with sets is the biggest cause of our offensive putridity. I see no harm that can come from removing the reins and just letting the guys do thier thing for one game. Call it the intramural league offense. At the very least it gets rid of the predictable sets other teams just wait for us to run now.

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  22. #143
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    OK, but then how long will you want the next coach to be our coach. I think a lot of people in this forum won't be happy with any coach after the first year
    While it is true that this is Vogel's first complete year, it is also true it is his third season or partial season as a head coach.

    Even at that, if a coach comes out with what people perceive as an ineffective offense, that offense is going to get criticized (and has been since the beginning of last season - he got slack when he took over because he was simplifying and focusing a disjointed read-and-react offense).

    There's no rule that says because a coach is new you have to be satisfied with what he implements. The question is rather a matter of how long you are willing to give him to correct the flaws.

    For many people (myself included), Vogel was being granted the benefit of the doubt due to the poor circumstances of his takeover and his first full season having no real training camp. The expectation, though, was that an offense that was prepared with a full off-season and training camp would correct the issues with the flow that existed with last year's offense. So far, we have not seen that; even taking execution into account this is an extremely one-dimensional offense.

    Ultimately, just like for a player, it comes down to results. I defended JOB on the forum not because I thought he was a good coach but because I thought people were pointing at the wrong things when they criticized him. In this case, I think people have pretty much the right idea about what Vogel's flaws are. Personally, I'd give him a little more time, but not necessarily the whole season.
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  24. #144

    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    From what I remember we were one of the only teams in the league, if not the only team in the league, that had a top 10 offense and defense in terms of efficiency.

    Edit: We were 7th in offensive rating and 9th in defensive rating

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../NBA_2012.html
    Yup. Our offense wasn't that bad. It was ugly. But it wasn't bad. Probably the best that group of guys could collectively do.

    Now we have Roy in a slump and no Granger to take pressure off of him and PG.

    It's just silly to evaluate our offense without our best player and arguably most important player. I think we've downgraded the bench. And we've made a mistake in trying to force Hill to be something he's not. (Especially when he's a great player for us when left to do what he's best at.) I think bottom line, this team as constructed needs a simple offense.

    I'm not saying Vogel doesn't have flaws. I don't know if he knows what a pretty offense looks like. But I am saying it's probably silly to criticize someone whose offense was the seventh most efficient in the NBA last season for their offense. Sure it was simple, but it was clearly effective. But if we must criticize the offense, I think we also have to take into consideration what type of players we have..and what they are capable of doing. Because it looks to me like they aren't capable of running a pretty and smooth offense because they don't screen, move without the ball, or move the ball.
    Last edited by Sookie; 11-16-2012 at 11:06 AM.

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