View Poll Results: Coach Frank Vogel

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  • Yes he is the best coach for this team and can lead us to the ECF's and beyond

    33 28.70%
  • No - great guy but in over his coaching experience

    25 21.74%
  • Not sure

    23 20.00%
  • Brian Shaw might be the best coach for this team

    30 26.09%
  • both Vogel and Shaw are not the right coach for this team and we need to find one this offseason

    4 3.48%
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Thread: Coach Frank Vogel

  1. #1
    bleed Blue & Gold PacersPride's Avatar
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    Default Coach Frank Vogel

    simple poll.

    Do you believe Frank Vogel can lead this team to the NBA Finals.

    Frank is in his 2nd full season and I love Vogel as much as the next Pacer fan. I will give my opinion on this topic later in the thread. But the question is simple.

    Does Vogel give this team the best chance to advance to the ECF and NBA Finals.

    Is Frank Vogel the best coach for this team.
    Last edited by PacersPride; 11-08-2012 at 02:06 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    It's too soon too tell, but early indications aren't encouraging.

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    Member joew8302's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Only 1 of these choices was even somewhat positive for Vogel.

    My question to those of you who want to tear him apart right now is who should get the credit for last year? Is Danny Granger an absolute superstar who this team can not do without? Was our bench tremendous and we just downgraded? Or did Vogel just go to sleep one night and forget how to win games?

    Frank is a good coach, not great, but good. Look at the turnound the pacers have made since replacing Obrien with Vogel. The record speaks for itself. Right now coaching can't overcome terrible ballhandeling, passing and shooting.

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  6. #4
    Pacer Pride, Colts Strong Kid Minneapolis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    He's also young and not very experienced and therefore, might be prone to lulls like this and should be expected to grow as a coach over time, so making judgements after a slow start that has only spanned 5 games is pretty damn silly.

    If people were expecting us to win a Title this year before Granger was injured, I think you are in a pipe dream. I do think Vogel will be an upper echelon coach within 5-10 years. Most people aren't that patient, but he'll only be in his mid-40s by that time.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Member Eleazar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    My question to those of you who want to tear him apart right now is who should get the credit for last year?
    If you read the complaints you should notice they are the exact same complaints from last year. It is all about his offensive system, and too much reliance on iso plays.

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  10. #6
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    He's also young and not very experienced and therefore, might be prone to lulls like this and should be expected to grow as a coach over time, so making judgements after a slow start that has only spanned 5 games is pretty damn silly.

    If people were expecting us to win a Title this year before Granger was injured, I think you are in a pipe dream. I do think Vogel will be an upper echelon coach within 5-10 years. Most people aren't that patient, but he'll only be in his mid-40s by that time.
    Exactly. I said this somewhere else, but Vogel is not dumb. He knows we can be better and while he may not have all the tools to fix this, I would bet he realizes this is not how we should perform. He will try to fix it and I'm sure we will improve. The question to me is does be have to the ability to get better or not.

    We have given Paul years now to get better. I realize Frank is in charge of an entire team, but that doesn't mean he doesn't need time to learn too. In regards to Shaw, if he's so great, why isn't be giving as many tips to Frank as possible? I do think Shaw is good, but I don't think he would do a much better job than Frank currently. Basically, I dot think all the blame is on the coach.

  11. #7
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    He may not be the best but I do believe he is capable, he is a young coach who is growing in experience right along with the team. I almost don't blame him that we could only hit one shot in the last 5 minutes of the game yesterday. I will say I thought we should have ran some type of screen to get a guy an open 3.
    Why so SERIOUS

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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Vogel's offense sucks but I'm not going to blame him yet, he said he was going to make the offense less complicated yesterday, whatever that means? either way I think the blame should go to the front office for not giving Vogel the right pieces to make it work, they knew they needed a go to scorer and didn't get one, they knew they needed a rebounder/defender and didn't get one, if you look at the Pacers signings other than Roy and Hill(to be evaluated) they signed the equivalent of Travis Diener, Kareem Rush and Solomon Jones, the amazing part is that they did it by using the rest of cap space they had and not only that but they gave long term deals to two of them.

  13. #9

    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    A good coach draws up plays to get his guys open looks. The game ending plays Frank has drawn up since he's been here haven't worked. That's not even taking into consideration the rest of his offense. He'd be a great bench coach, but I'm doubting his ability to lead a team.

  14. #10

    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    It is probably easier to draw up successful plays when you have players who are capable of getting open/getting the ball to open players.

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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Colin Cowherd had a great comment on his show about why fans turn on coaches so fast (yeah I can't believe I'm quoting him either). He said something to the effect that, fans turn on a coach and want him run out of town because they think that if a team isn't winning it's got to be the coaches fault. Firing the coach still leaves them with hope for their team and season. Turning on the players and realizing that they don't have good enough players leaves the fans without hope.

    He also made the point that fans usually turn on a coach way before the players do.

  17. #12

    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by IndyJones View Post
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    It is probably easier to draw up successful plays when you have players who are capable of getting open/getting the ball to open players.
    This has gone on now for over a year. The players deserve blame, but in the end it falls on Franks shoulders. Fair or unfair, that's the way it goes.

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  19. #13
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    I just don't think he's an Xs and Os type of coach. Meaning constructing an offensive and defensive scheme that works, and utilizes our guys strengths. Maybe it's cause he learned too much from JOB and took away a lot of his learnings.

    He's a great motivator, he's a great player manager, but you need to be more than that to coach in the NBA.

    I honestly don't know what Shaw brings to the table. What's his part in all this? I don't know, so I can't really comment.

    What I do know is that we don't seem to have an offensive scheme. In a pg league now, the Pacers system seems to absolutely destroy pgs value. Look at DC. Played well for NO. Sucked in Indiana. Playing very well for Dallas. DJ is a decent player. He may not be starter material like he was with the Bobcats, but you'd think he'd be one of the better backup pgs. So far you'd think we signed some DLeague scrub.

    Pacers still have trouble with pick n rolls on defense. They still can't set proper picks/screens.

    All this comes down to coaching and execution. I love Vogel, but I really think he's more of an assistant coach right now.

    But who else is their? One of the Van Gundy's? There might not be a better option.
    With the #3 pick in the 2015 draft, your Indiana Pacers!

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  21. #14
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    It could also be that the Pacers just don't have players with good BBIQs.

    You can filll a team with nice guys that the community would respect, but if they are low IQs and can't execute out there, then no coach can fix that.
    With the #3 pick in the 2015 draft, your Indiana Pacers!

  22. #15
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    I'm not convinced Vogel is the long-term answer, never have been. I'm also not ready to give up on him. I'm hoping, though, that Brian Shaw gets a job somewhere else this next offseason so that he's out of the picture. Let somebody else deal with him.

    I've got somebody different that I want in here after Shaw and Vogel are gone.

    I don't have as much of a problem with Vogel's x's and o's as the rest of you. I also didn't have a problem with Carlisle's x's and o's even when I wanted Rick to be run out of town.

    I don't feel like Frank has lost control of the team. But I'm not sure how high Frank's ceiling is right now or over the next couple of years. To me, this was a bigger concern two years ago when our team had no mental toughness. Having West and Hill take over the leader's role has made me less concerned about Frank's lack of experience on the hotseat.
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  23. #16
    Play McRoberts and Price! BRushWithDeath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    I was against giving Vogel the full time job originally and haven't seen much in the last year and 5 games to indicate my original assessment was incorrect but a hybrid of Red Auerbach and Phil Jackson couldn't get this team to the Finals.
    "I had to take her down like Chris Brown."

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  25. #17
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    I don't know but sure seems like Hibbert hasn't been running through any walls for Frank lately.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

  26. #18
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Give me elite players and I can win a Championship.

    Example: Erik Spoelstra, Doc Rivers

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  28. #19
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by duke dynamite View Post
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    Give me elite players and I can win a Championship.

    Example: Erik Spoelstra, Doc Rivers
    I will admit that Spoelestra seems to have the players buying in to sharing the ball. They are destroying teams.
    With the #3 pick in the 2015 draft, your Indiana Pacers!

  29. #20
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    I said "not sure" because, as many problems as I have with Frank right now, it's just too early to make a final judgement. No plan survives contact with the enemy, let's give him more than a week to adjust this one.
    BillS

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  31. #21
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by duke dynamite View Post
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    Give me elite players and I can win a Championship.

    Example: Erik Spoelstra, Doc Rivers

    I usually compare Brooks from OKC with Vogel, they to me are good cheerleaders but not so good X's and O's coaches, I guess my point is that Brooks had a team with 3 elite players and he didn't win the championship, Brooks and Vogel also fall in love with one or two players in their teams and don't stop using them even if those players are hurting the team.

    You can have elite players but if you don't have a good coach, that coach can hinder your ability to win a championship, example: Brooks.

  32. #22
    Member joew8302's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    If you read the complaints you should notice they are the exact same complaints from last year. It is all about his offensive system, and too much reliance on iso plays.
    So apparently we had players extremely talented to win as many games as we did despite the lack of an offensive system, yet these same guys apparently got worse or forgot how to win the games we won last year. Makes sense.

  33. #23
    bleed Blue & Gold PacersPride's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    okay so a few points here i want to make after reading comments:

    1) i feel like the Pacers are in the same boat the hoosiers were in a few years ago. Mike Davis basically stepped in for Knight and led that team to the Final Four so immediately he was given every chance to succeed. Vogel took over for a coach that probably 95% of this board wanted run out of town and he did well.

    last year not having a training camp was an accetable excuse. this season it will be not having Granger.

    2) how many coaches go from assisting the assistant coach to the head coach position and succeed. i like Vogel but lets be real here. it takes time to become a good coach in this league and right now Vogel needs to be groomed further as an assistant coach.

    3) i want to rephrase this question a little bit to give a different perspective. do the Pacers have enough talent to advance to the ECF or NBA Finals.?

    Hill (strong player w/ championship experience), West (all-star), Granger (all-star), Hibbert (all-star).

    * outside of NY, Brooklyn, Miami, Lakers, SA, OKC, is there any other team in the NBA with more talent in its starting 5.



    If this team has the talent to become an ECF finalist is Vogel a coach who can take them the next level up.

    personally, i dont think Vogel is a guy that can take this team to the next level. Vogel will become a good coach one day but right now we need someone with more nba experience.

    I like Shaw cause i have heard alot of great things about him and he played in the NBA and today those are the type of coaches that seem to really succeed alas a Doc Rivers.

    We need a coach who can get the most out of this young team (Hibbert, Paul George, Stephenson, etc).

  34. #24
    Member Since86's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    These Mike Davis comparisons gotta go. Davis took over a good IU team. Vogel took over a crap Pacers team. The obvious major difference.

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  36. #25
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    So apparently we had players extremely talented to win as many games as we did despite the lack of an offensive system, yet these same guys apparently got worse or forgot how to win the games we won last year. Makes sense.
    That is a nice theory you came up there, good thing I didn't come up with it because it is pure ****.

    Vogel had an offensive scheme last year that very few people were satisfied with last year. It is a scheme designed for people to beat their man either one v one or in a two man game. It wasn't an offense that really got more than two people involved at any single time. It was a big reason why we struggled to get open shots. This year we have the exact same offense that is easy to defend. Again the players are having to overcome the offense to win games. The difference between last year and this year, we have no Granger and we came out of the gates slow. Nothing I would worry about. Just we would look a lot better if we had a scheme that helped the players instead of relying on the players to do everything by themselves.

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