View Poll Results: Coach Frank Vogel

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  • Yes he is the best coach for this team and can lead us to the ECF's and beyond

    33 28.70%
  • No - great guy but in over his coaching experience

    25 21.74%
  • Not sure

    23 20.00%
  • Brian Shaw might be the best coach for this team

    30 26.09%
  • both Vogel and Shaw are not the right coach for this team and we need to find one this offseason

    4 3.48%
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Thread: Coach Frank Vogel

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  1. #1
    bleed Blue & Gold PacersPride's Avatar
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    Default Coach Frank Vogel

    simple poll.

    Do you believe Frank Vogel can lead this team to the NBA Finals.

    Frank is in his 2nd full season and I love Vogel as much as the next Pacer fan. I will give my opinion on this topic later in the thread. But the question is simple.

    Does Vogel give this team the best chance to advance to the ECF and NBA Finals.

    Is Frank Vogel the best coach for this team.
    Last edited by PacersPride; 11-08-2012 at 01:06 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    It's too soon too tell, but early indications aren't encouraging.

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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Only 1 of these choices was even somewhat positive for Vogel.

    My question to those of you who want to tear him apart right now is who should get the credit for last year? Is Danny Granger an absolute superstar who this team can not do without? Was our bench tremendous and we just downgraded? Or did Vogel just go to sleep one night and forget how to win games?

    Frank is a good coach, not great, but good. Look at the turnound the pacers have made since replacing Obrien with Vogel. The record speaks for itself. Right now coaching can't overcome terrible ballhandeling, passing and shooting.

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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    My question to those of you who want to tear him apart right now is who should get the credit for last year?
    If you read the complaints you should notice they are the exact same complaints from last year. It is all about his offensive system, and too much reliance on iso plays.

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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    If you read the complaints you should notice they are the exact same complaints from last year. It is all about his offensive system, and too much reliance on iso plays.
    So apparently we had players extremely talented to win as many games as we did despite the lack of an offensive system, yet these same guys apparently got worse or forgot how to win the games we won last year. Makes sense.

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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    So apparently we had players extremely talented to win as many games as we did despite the lack of an offensive system, yet these same guys apparently got worse or forgot how to win the games we won last year. Makes sense.
    That is a nice theory you came up there, good thing I didn't come up with it because it is pure ****.

    Vogel had an offensive scheme last year that very few people were satisfied with last year. It is a scheme designed for people to beat their man either one v one or in a two man game. It wasn't an offense that really got more than two people involved at any single time. It was a big reason why we struggled to get open shots. This year we have the exact same offense that is easy to defend. Again the players are having to overcome the offense to win games. The difference between last year and this year, we have no Granger and we came out of the gates slow. Nothing I would worry about. Just we would look a lot better if we had a scheme that helped the players instead of relying on the players to do everything by themselves.

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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    That is a nice theory you came up there, good thing I didn't come up with it because it is pure ****.

    Vogel had an offensive scheme last year that very few people were satisfied with last year. It is a scheme designed for people to beat their man either one v one or in a two man game. It wasn't an offense that really got more than two people involved at any single time. It was a big reason why we struggled to get open shots. This year we have the exact same offense that is easy to defend. Again the players are having to overcome the offense to win games. The difference between last year and this year, we have no Granger and we came out of the gates slow. Nothing I would worry about. Just we would look a lot better if we had a scheme that helped the players instead of relying on the players to do everything by themselves.
    So the same core group that overcame Vogel's terrible offensive scheme last year and had a great record all of the sudden isn't talented enough to do so. Like I said, either Granger is an MVP canidadte with his worth to this team or the same players that excelled last year despite this "terrible system" have forgotton how to tearly on this season.

  11. #8

    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    A good coach draws up plays to get his guys open looks. The game ending plays Frank has drawn up since he's been here haven't worked. That's not even taking into consideration the rest of his offense. He'd be a great bench coach, but I'm doubting his ability to lead a team.

  12. #9
    Pacer Pride, Colts Strong Kid Minneapolis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    He's also young and not very experienced and therefore, might be prone to lulls like this and should be expected to grow as a coach over time, so making judgements after a slow start that has only spanned 5 games is pretty damn silly.

    If people were expecting us to win a Title this year before Granger was injured, I think you are in a pipe dream. I do think Vogel will be an upper echelon coach within 5-10 years. Most people aren't that patient, but he'll only be in his mid-40s by that time.
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    He's also young and not very experienced and therefore, might be prone to lulls like this and should be expected to grow as a coach over time, so making judgements after a slow start that has only spanned 5 games is pretty damn silly.

    If people were expecting us to win a Title this year before Granger was injured, I think you are in a pipe dream. I do think Vogel will be an upper echelon coach within 5-10 years. Most people aren't that patient, but he'll only be in his mid-40s by that time.
    Exactly. I said this somewhere else, but Vogel is not dumb. He knows we can be better and while he may not have all the tools to fix this, I would bet he realizes this is not how we should perform. He will try to fix it and I'm sure we will improve. The question to me is does be have to the ability to get better or not.

    We have given Paul years now to get better. I realize Frank is in charge of an entire team, but that doesn't mean he doesn't need time to learn too. In regards to Shaw, if he's so great, why isn't be giving as many tips to Frank as possible? I do think Shaw is good, but I don't think he would do a much better job than Frank currently. Basically, I dot think all the blame is on the coach.

  15. #11
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    He may not be the best but I do believe he is capable, he is a young coach who is growing in experience right along with the team. I almost don't blame him that we could only hit one shot in the last 5 minutes of the game yesterday. I will say I thought we should have ran some type of screen to get a guy an open 3.
    Why so SERIOUS

  16. #12
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Vogel's offense sucks but I'm not going to blame him yet, he said he was going to make the offense less complicated yesterday, whatever that means? either way I think the blame should go to the front office for not giving Vogel the right pieces to make it work, they knew they needed a go to scorer and didn't get one, they knew they needed a rebounder/defender and didn't get one, if you look at the Pacers signings other than Roy and Hill(to be evaluated) they signed the equivalent of Travis Diener, Kareem Rush and Solomon Jones, the amazing part is that they did it by using the rest of cap space they had and not only that but they gave long term deals to two of them.

  17. #13
    On the Vogel Wagon gummy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Vogel's offense sucks but I'm not going to blame him yet, he said he was going to make the offense less complicated yesterday, whatever that means?
    I think it means he tried to implement a system that the guys have shown they can't run successfully in a game situation. They aren't making crisp cuts, they aren't making good passes. They aren't setting consistently good screens. We all know (well, maybe not all, but those of us who followed off-season coverage closely) that they worked on at least one of those things - screening drills. Vogel talked about how he wanted them to set good, hard screens. Tyler has shown some improvement in that area, but it's not consistent. Vogel cannot go out there and set the screen his damn self. The best he can do is keep reinforcing what he wants and putting them through the drills that will make it more likely that they'll form the habits he wants.

    The idea that we need to simplify the offense is really not a good sign re: our basketball IQ as a team, that's for sure.

    I do think this is more on the players than it is on Frank. But I still voted I'm not sure, because I need to see how Coach responds to what is happening now.
    Last edited by gummy; 11-08-2012 at 04:13 PM.
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  19. #14

    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Vogel's offense sucks but I'm not going to blame him yet, he said he was going to make the offense less complicated yesterday, whatever that means? either way I think the blame should go to the front office for not giving Vogel the right pieces to make it work, they knew they needed a go to scorer and didn't get one, they knew they needed a rebounder/defender and didn't get one, if you look at the Pacers signings other than Roy and Hill(to be evaluated) they signed the equivalent of Travis Diener, Kareem Rush and Solomon Jones, the amazing part is that they did it by using the rest of cap space they had and not only that but they gave long term deals to two of them.

    BUT Walsh knows what he's doing. That's why he left Bird with a mess when he left. I was totally against Walsh being brought back, voiced my opinion strongly about it. I haven't changed my mind either about Walsh being in charge, just trying to be patient and watch what happens. I just hope when Walsh finally leaves the Pacers that his decisions don't cause the Pacers problems for years to come...... like last time.

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  21. #15

    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    It is probably easier to draw up successful plays when you have players who are capable of getting open/getting the ball to open players.

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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by IndyJones View Post
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    It is probably easier to draw up successful plays when you have players who are capable of getting open/getting the ball to open players.
    This has gone on now for over a year. The players deserve blame, but in the end it falls on Franks shoulders. Fair or unfair, that's the way it goes.

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  25. #17
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    We need to do what the Lakers did and fire Vogel and make Shaw the HC. He is going to be courted by a lot of teams next season and get's a lot of credibility from other players. We shouldn't miss our chance and make him the HC. Vogel has a horrible offense. Vogel was good when he first took over this team cause of his passion but honeymoon is over.

  26. #18
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Colin Cowherd had a great comment on his show about why fans turn on coaches so fast (yeah I can't believe I'm quoting him either). He said something to the effect that, fans turn on a coach and want him run out of town because they think that if a team isn't winning it's got to be the coaches fault. Firing the coach still leaves them with hope for their team and season. Turning on the players and realizing that they don't have good enough players leaves the fans without hope.

    He also made the point that fans usually turn on a coach way before the players do.

  27. #19
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    I just don't think he's an Xs and Os type of coach. Meaning constructing an offensive and defensive scheme that works, and utilizes our guys strengths. Maybe it's cause he learned too much from JOB and took away a lot of his learnings.

    He's a great motivator, he's a great player manager, but you need to be more than that to coach in the NBA.

    I honestly don't know what Shaw brings to the table. What's his part in all this? I don't know, so I can't really comment.

    What I do know is that we don't seem to have an offensive scheme. In a pg league now, the Pacers system seems to absolutely destroy pgs value. Look at DC. Played well for NO. Sucked in Indiana. Playing very well for Dallas. DJ is a decent player. He may not be starter material like he was with the Bobcats, but you'd think he'd be one of the better backup pgs. So far you'd think we signed some DLeague scrub.

    Pacers still have trouble with pick n rolls on defense. They still can't set proper picks/screens.

    All this comes down to coaching and execution. I love Vogel, but I really think he's more of an assistant coach right now.

    But who else is their? One of the Van Gundy's? There might not be a better option.
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  29. #20
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    It could also be that the Pacers just don't have players with good BBIQs.

    You can filll a team with nice guys that the community would respect, but if they are low IQs and can't execute out there, then no coach can fix that.
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  30. #21
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    I'm not convinced Vogel is the long-term answer, never have been. I'm also not ready to give up on him. I'm hoping, though, that Brian Shaw gets a job somewhere else this next offseason so that he's out of the picture. Let somebody else deal with him.

    I've got somebody different that I want in here after Shaw and Vogel are gone.

    I don't have as much of a problem with Vogel's x's and o's as the rest of you. I also didn't have a problem with Carlisle's x's and o's even when I wanted Rick to be run out of town.

    I don't feel like Frank has lost control of the team. But I'm not sure how high Frank's ceiling is right now or over the next couple of years. To me, this was a bigger concern two years ago when our team had no mental toughness. Having West and Hill take over the leader's role has made me less concerned about Frank's lack of experience on the hotseat.
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  31. #22

    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I'm not convinced Vogel is the long-term answer, never have been. I'm also not ready to give up on him. I'm hoping, though, that Brian Shaw gets a job somewhere else this next offseason so that he's out of the picture. Let somebody else deal with him.

    I've got somebody different that I want in here after Shaw and Vogel are gone.

    I don't have as much of a problem with Vogel's x's and o's as the rest of you. I also didn't have a problem with Carlisle's x's and o's even when I wanted Rick to be run out of town.

    I don't feel like Frank has lost control of the team. But I'm not sure how high Frank's ceiling is right now or over the next couple of years. To me, this was a bigger concern two years ago when our team had no mental toughness. Having West and Hill take over the leader's role has made me less concerned about Frank's lack of experience on the hotseat.
    I'm not trying to indicate that Vogel should go or that Shaw should replace him. I am just genuinely curious to know why you hope Brian Shaw leaves and/or think he would be a bad choice to be this team's head coach? Who would you like to see coach this team after Vogel?

  32. #23
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Young View Post
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    I'm not trying to indicate that Vogel should go or that Shaw should replace him. I am just genuinely curious to know why you hope Brian Shaw leaves and/or think he would be a bad choice to be this team's head coach? Who would you like to see coach this team after Vogel?
    I think Shaw is overhyped because of the Phil Jackson factor. Jackson's assistants were great assistants, but not really good HCs. I'm not inclined to see Shaw any differently until he proves otherwise, preferably someplace else.

    There's another somewhat young (by coaching standards) former NBA player that has been putting in his time and dues as an assistant (in other words, not a Mark Jackson prima donna type) and has been in the running for several HC positions over the past couple of seasons. He's a film junkie and has shown to be a solid x-and-o assistant. He also seems to relate well to players, even troubled ones. Those that have paid attention to me at PD over the past eight years know *exactly* who I'm talking about.

    But if its another year away, that's fine. I'm neither worried about Vogel nor convinced he's a long-term solution. He's been a breath of fresh air when we needed one, and those types of coaches do have value at a particular stage of a team's development.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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  34. #24
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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    There's another somewhat young (by coaching standards) former NBA player that has been putting in his time and dues as an assistant (in other words, not a Mark Jackson prima donna type) and has been in the running for several HC positions over the past couple of seasons. He's a film junkie and has shown to be a solid x-and-o assistant. He also seems to relate well to players, even troubled ones. Those that have paid attention to me at PD over the past eight years know *exactly* who I'm talking about.


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    Default Re: Coach Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    No... I don't think the little Red-X box has much of a coaching career left in front of him.

    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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