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Thread: Odd Thoughts: Home opener vs. the Kings

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Odd Thoughts: Home opener vs. the Kings

    If you’re a glass full kind of person you can hang your hat on the fact that had we made just two of the free throws we missed in Charlotte we could be 3-0. You could even make the point that you are still 2-1 with your best player out with injury and your starting point guard injured while you are trying to integrate several new players into your system.

    If you’re a glass half empty person you will say that if it weren’t for a heroic effort by David West to lead a come from behind win you could easily be 1-2 with the one win being a double over time win vs. an 0-3 team. You could further state that the it wouldn’t matter how many people you were trying to work into the system because our offensive system is non functioning and is just a differing isolation play each time down the court.

    You would be right either way and thus we have the state of the Pacers 3 games into the season.

    I’m not going to lie, I see this as troubling. We have played some less than stellar teams so far & unless some miracle happens on Monday I fully expect a beat down of biblical proportions from the Spurs. In fact if we lose and lose less than double digits I will probably consider it a victory.

    Our offense is just a mess right now. There is no other way to say it, it is horrible & we are relying on one on one greatness to get us over the hump. Or at best we are trying to run a two man pick & roll game which other teams have scouted and are denying. Also it doesn’t help that we don’t really have any great one on one players out there either.

    I don’t want to belay the obvious but we miss Danny Granger far more than I ever dreamed we would. I mean he makes us a totally other team or at least he makes the starting five a different team.

    Can’t say that I’m thrilled with Frank so far this year. I want him to do well so bad that I am really going out of my way to not be overly critical but his offensive system is just abysmal so far.

    Also I know they are new and all but are Sam Young & Gerald Green the two single dumbest passers you’ve ever seen? I mean between Green throwing it between the players legs and Young thinking that an opponents arm & hand being in the way is no reason not to pass into an area we have been treated to some of the dumbest passes I’ve ever seen. EVER!

    Ok Paul George had a very good statistical game & yes he played superb defense to close out the game. But am I the only person who wonders if maybe he would play just a little better every now and then if he got angry? I mean in all of the games he’s played I’ve never seen him get upset about anything and I think it would do him a world of good to every now and then get offended by a hard foul or something. I mean Danny enters a game ready to fight, David West looks like someone spit on him every single min. he is on the floor even Roy on occasion gets fed up & gets emotional in a game. There just never appears to be any real fire there, maybe it’s just me. I mean I love the fact that he is rebounding at a very high level but I guess I just thought with Danny out he would somehow get his points up to the mid 20’s, maybe that’s just not his game and it may never be.

    Mahinmi played a total of 09:53 in a double overtime game. Not sure what I should think about that.

    Even more puzzling to me was that Gerald Green played a total of 24:18 in double over time when he appeared to be finally getting over the hump? He was taken out for Lance and never came back. This is kind of puzzling.

    Before I move on let me just say that Marcus Thornton is a far more sedate human being than I would be. If it were me & I hit that big three pointer in the corner with a man running at me to send the game into a second over time I'm afraid I would have have to tell everyone in the arena about it and do some form of dance at the mid court circle. Dude just ran off like it was nothing, he blew a real chance to self promote there and who would have blamed him.

    Anyway let’s just do grades tonight and move on.

    Gerald Green: C+

    He finally scored from the field after he decided to quit settling for the jumper and driving the baseline. But defensively he was having trouble & was getting into foul trouble. He did cut down on the dumb turnovers tonight. Not really sure why he was relegated to the bench for good in the beginning of the 4th quarter but I have a feeling Frank was testing the water to see how Lance fit in with the starters. Honestly I can’t say he was any better or any worse than Gerald but I think Gerald does not fit real well with the starting five. Not sure if Frank will make the switch but I wouldn’t be surprised either.

    David West: A

    Atrocious from the field for most of the night but once again when it counted he hit some big shots. But the most important thing he did all night long was block a three point shot attempt by Marcus Thornton sometime in the 2nd overtime. Also he took over the glass, which he should do on far more occasions than he does (no I don’t expect 18 every game but 10 would be nice). Very decent game from him.

    Roy Hibbert: B+

    Frank has got to figure out a way to get Roy some more shots. Dude was 6-11 from the field and whenever he put a move on Cousins it was more often than not a success. Also 6 blocked shots is huge but I don’t think he played as well defensively as he could have against Cousins.

    Paul George: A

    Again I am going to give him an A for the actual game he played but once again he has yet to show that he can impose his will on a game on the offensive end. In fact he played the entire 1st quarter without scoring a point. But I don’t want to be unfair either. Anytime you grab 17 rebounds and your team wins you have done a good job. Also he did play killer defense to close out several Kings breaks in the over time periods. BTW I’m not trying to be unfair to Paul, I just think that we are looking for him to show us he is the next alpha male not just another good/great player on a very good team.

    George Hill: A-

    I can’t fault him for our lack of offensive cohesion because he is running the plays Frank is calling from the sidelines. He played much better tonight than he did vs. the Bobcats and while he may have gone over board with the shooting attempts in the O.T. periods what I like about him is that he has the mind of a killer, if not the talent of one. He is not afraid of big moments and frankly I can’t say that about all of our players. He didn’t let Isiah Thomas abuse him with speed like I was afraid he would either.

    Sam Young: F

    Just horrible all night long. Bad shot selection, stupid idiotic passing and defense that was some combination of tae kwon do and convulsions. Honest to God he passed the ball inbounds directly to a King player and acted surprised when he didn’t pass it along to the Pacer he intended to pass to. I want to like Sam but nights like this make it very hard.

    Tyler Hansbrough: B

    Why is it that Tyler is the one player this season who has not disappointed me? I think it’s because I had such low expectations of him that if he comes into the game and doesn’t proceed to throw his own defecation at his team mates I am happy with him. However not only has he not done that he’s been surprisingly active on defense and rebounding this year. His offense is about the same but God love him for making his free throws.

    D.J. Augustin: C-

    Meh, I’m not sure what to say about him. I guess at least he isn’t A.J. Price (sorry Sookie) but I’m not sure what else to say. He only merits 13:21 in a double over time game? Makes me think that Frank doesn’t have a lot of faith yet.

    Ian Mahinmi: D

    Ugh, this is not what I saw in pre-season at all. Frank obviously lost all faith in him tonight and went back to his security blanket of David West at the 5 for awhile. This is not good, not good at all because isn’t that what people wanted to eliminate from last year? At least he hit his free throws but that’s about all he did.

    Lance Stephenson: B+

    Watching Lance & Evans play against each other was fun to watch because he is the person I most closely associate Lance with body wise and even somewhat skill wise. I wonder if Lance isn’t being set up to move into a role with the front five? This really scares me because that might mean that Danny is out for a long time but if he is I’m not sure if I don’t think Lance wouldn’t be better with that unit where he can facilitate the offense and not be forced to try and be it with that second unit. He had a nasty habit of cherry picking on defense tonight creeping back to try and get a fast break when everyone else was still defending. It cost us a couple of rebounds probably but he did manage to get one break out of it.

    Ok one more overall complaint I have before I go and this one comes from Diamond Dave who complained the entire game about this.

    Our team sets faux screens & picks and other teams have this scouted and stop the action almost every time.

    In other words Tyler or David will come out and set a pick and then immediately slip the pick to get into shooting position without ever making contact with the defender and thus never giving the ball handler the clear space he needs to make a play. We need to just go out & set a solid pick and then see if they can get into position after contact has been made.

    Again I’m not going to complain to much several teams have lost to other teams that they weren’t expecting to so far this year. But we have to be very careful if we want to win the central because we have a very limited room for error because even though the Bulls lost tonight I don’t think they will fall to far and I still believe Rose will be back sooner than we think and if we don’t have a cushion between us I would be very afraid of what they will do once he is healthy.

    Oh well off to the Alamo to face Tim Duncan and Davey Crockett




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    yawn cgg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Home opener vs. the Kings

    I'm just happy that Tyler doesn't slip on EVERY SINGLE pick anymore.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Home opener vs. the Kings

    "In other words Tyler or David will come out and set a pick and then immediately slip the pick to get into shooting position without ever making contact with the defender and thus never giving the ball handler the clear space he needs to make a play. We need to just go out & set a solid pick and then see if they can get into position after contact has been made"
    i know what you are talking about with those useless fake screens and picks. i don't like them and think they are a waste of time. if you go out and set a screen- then do it. otherwise there isn't much of a point.
    thinking about augustin, i hope his shooting touch sharpens up or else he may make aj price look like a true sharpshooter.
    he has been laying bricks and not much else.
    Last edited by clownskull; 11-04-2012 at 02:31 AM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Home opener vs. the Kings

    Someone superglue Danny's knee together and lets go.
    "Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Home opener vs. the Kings

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    He was taken out for Lance and never came back. This is kind of puzzling.
    Not to me. We went on an 8-0 run when Lance was subbed in the 2nd quarter.

    He has a +34 for the season. The closest to that is Hibbert at +17. Everyone else is around or below 0.
    Last edited by McKeyFan; 11-04-2012 at 12:59 PM.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Home opener vs. the Kings

    I seem to be the only one that was amazed by Paul George last night. I thought he imposed his will rebounding and with his defense. I thought for a lot of the 2nd half and overtime, his defense was artest like.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Home opener vs. the Kings

    New big screen A++++++++++++++++++++++++

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Home opener vs. the Kings

    I agree with most except for Roy. He held Cousins to 9-27 from the field! But I agree he needs more FGA. And West needs less.

    Also it's funny that you said that about Paul. On his fadeaway J in the second OT, Thornton kept grabbing his jersey (leading to a no call of course) and sitting court side you could tell PG was annoyed. He simply made up his mind that he was gonna score, and score he did.
    Last edited by Ace E.Anderson; 11-04-2012 at 09:21 AM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Home opener vs. the Kings

    I don't understand how the Pacers can be the worst screen/pick setting team. So disappointing. The ball handler always has to dance his way out of a double team almost every time they try and set a pick. Good lord, how is it that hard??? Teams do it to us and look like geniuses cause we can't figure it out half the time. Can't they just watch the tape of other teams on how to set proper picks? F***!
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Home opener vs. the Kings

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Not to me. We went on an 8-0 run when Lance was subbed in the 2nd quarter.

    He has a +34. The closest to that is Hibbert at +17. Everyone else is around or below 0.
    yeah, me neither. Lance gives another good ball handler. Gerald had a nice game, but he is a turnover waiting to happen. Putting Lance in the game allows Hill to post Thomas and Brooks. And let Lance run the offense. Thought Lance did a nice job of game management when he ran the offense.

    It may just be me, but right now it looks like Frank really only trusts 5 guys right now. and Lance is one of them.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Home opener vs. the Kings

    Also it doesn’t help that we don’t really have any great one on one players out there either.
    How many times and years we have been saying the same thing? yep another year without a shot creator, Crawford and Mayo are looking good so far by the way.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Home opener vs. the Kings

    Quote Originally Posted by xIndyFan View Post
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    yeah, me neither. Lance gives another good ball handler. Gerald had a nice game, but he is a turnover waiting to happen. Putting Lance in the game allows Hill to post Thomas and Brooks. And let Lance run the offense. Thought Lance did a nice job of game management when he ran the offense.

    It may just be me, but right now it looks like Frank really only trusts 5 guys right now. and Lance is one of them.
    It looks to me like Vogel decided to go with Lance because he trust that he is not going to throw the ball away unlike Green.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Home opener vs. the Kings

    I totally agree with your point about picks.

    However, a fake pick is an excellent play and usually successful, if used correctly. And that would be after setting 3-4 good, hard picks first. If used as one out of every 4-5 picks set, a false pick is very useful and takes the opponent by surprise.

    But using a false pick on nearly every pick set is just plain lazy and bad basketball.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Home opener vs. the Kings

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    How many times and years we have been saying the same thing? yep another year without a shot creator, Crawford and Mayo are looking good so far by the way.
    Yeah no kidding. I bet had we known that Danny would be out for some time, we would've opened our wallets a little more and paid one of those guys in order to get more creativity in our offense

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    Vogel could make his life easier on his self by just printing your 'Thoughts' and taping it to everyone's locker...

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Home opener vs. the Kings

    What I hate the most is that the team completely ignores Hibbert in the 4th. Even though he's the guy who you can rely on to score easy buckets, not fadeaway jumpers. Ugh.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Home opener vs. the Kings

    I thought we picked up right where we left off last season at the beginning of training camp? So far, this is the worst we've looked to start a season in years.

    I'm concerned about the offense. It's been bad for a long time. We were very predictable last season too.

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    It could get ugly Brinocerous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Home opener vs. the Kings

    Man, it's great to hear someone else disgusted with our Charmin style picks. Am I wrong for wanting to see one of our so-called smashmouth players parking a defender on his can with a pick just once? It's not like we don't have guys capable of setting some effective picks. I just don't get it.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Home opener vs. the Kings

    The offense is problematical at this point, for sure.

    But, a couple of bright spots: We lead the East in Opp FG% and in Total and Off. Rebound %. I hope that indicates fundamental defensive strength that will stick with us and shore us up as we address the offense and wait for Danny's return.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Home opener vs. the Kings

    I'm still high on this team, and all the players involved. We're three games into the season, and missing our lead scorer. Gerald Green will benefit from being the first scoring option off the bench, instead of 5th scorer with the starters (as Paul experienced last year). Yeh, we shouldn't have had that much trouble beating the Kings last night, after having such a good lead at the half. But we're only going to get better.

    As always, Peck, your Odd Thoughts on this game are awesome.

    Ok Paul George had a very good statistical game & yes he played superb defense to close out the game. But am I the only person who wonders if maybe he would play just a little better every now and then if he got angry? I mean in all of the games he’s played I’ve never seen him get upset about anything and I think it would do him a world of good to every now and then get offended by a hard foul or something. I mean Danny enters a game ready to fight, David West looks like someone spit on him every single min. he is on the floor even Roy on occasion gets fed up & gets emotional in a game. There just never appears to be any real fire there, maybe it’s just me. I mean I love the fact that he is rebounding at a very high level but I guess I just thought with Danny out he would somehow get his points up to the mid 20’s, maybe that’s just not his game and it may never be.


    This is all true. I've said it before, when Paul plays with a bit more confidence, swagger, and emotion, he really gets in the zone. But I wonder if he fears getting too emotional, at the risk of making bad plays, turnovers, etc. It would be nice if Paul could get someone to yell at before the game, a la David Benner. Maybe that can be Gentle Ben's bench role.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Home opener vs. the Kings

    Offensively the Pacers are lost. They are averaging 90 points in regulation games. Then only 15 extra points with 10 min of OT. This pathetic offense produced an anemiic 16 ASTS in 58 game minutes. Terrible, absolutely horrible.

    Granger is out, but he's not the reason this team is so bad on offense. The reason is poor shot selection, relying on 3 pt shooting too much, and too little scoring in the paint. Better offensive plays from Vogel would be a definate improvement along with better execution by the players. Both Vogel and the players had training camp to work on the offense going into this season, so that can't be used as an excuse this season.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Home opener vs. the Kings

    Our offense is just a mess right now. I like Vogel and all, but he is once again confusing me with his tactics... Last year I felt like we would try to feed the ball into Hibbert, this year it feels like we are barely doing that. In fact I feel like Hibbert barely ever gets the ball. Our substitution methods are still weird as ever too. Vogel always seems to take guys out when they are doing good, why he does it beats me... He did it with Gerald and also with Lance if I remember correctly. Which brings me to another point. I mentioned it in the game thread... Lance should be starting. I am willing to give Gerald a little more of a chance with the starters, but I think he would benefit coming off the bench. Lance looked good with the starters and has looked pretty good so far all around.

    As for Paul, I really do wish he would show more emotion. I think he is the type of person who doesn't want to get in anyone's way. He doesn't want to offend anyone on the team by trying to take over a game or whatever. I would love to see for him to just call for the ball and shoot it without hesitation. I get so flustered when he is wide open and does a little shot fake and passes it or drives and misses a contested layup or short-range jumper. If he is open, he should shoot it, simple as that. I have seen him take offense to a hard foul before, but he doesn't really do anything about it. I don't know if Paul will ever develop this into his game.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Home opener vs. the Kings

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23 View Post
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    I totally agree with your point about picks.

    However, a fake pick is an excellent play and usually successful, if used correctly. And that would be after setting 3-4 good, hard picks first. If used as one out of every 4-5 picks set, a false pick is very useful and takes the opponent by surprise.

    But using a false pick on nearly every pick set is just plain lazy and bad basketball.
    Yep. And I don't think the coaching staff wants them to set those fake picks that often. They did drills in camp where the players were getting smacked with big pads to let them get a sense of what a good pick feels like. Vogel talked about wanting the bigs to set good, hard screens. Tyler did in the first two games, and then...

    It puzzles me with Tyler in particular. I know he's anxious to get into potential shooting position. But this guy loves contact, I'd expect him to really take to setting hard screens. It was disappointing to see him go back to the fake screen last night.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Home opener vs. the Kings

    Regarding Lance's PT:

    I think Frank is rewarding a guy that the organization has worked with for several years. Lance's jumper/decision making is greatly improved, and Frank is rewarding him with PT. The chemistry with Lance/PG/Hill/Hibs/West is so much better than with Green.

    It's clear to me this team is still finding it's way, the offense is non-existent. It's crazy that Roy can dominate like he did and rarely get a play run for him.

    For all the complaints about GH3, he really asserted himself in the OT's. When everyone is shying away from the ball, he makes things happen. When he gets to 100% the offense will really improve, IMO.


    EDIT: Big shoutout to Tyler, by the way. For a guy that was absolutely terrible last season, he's actually looked to make some passes/go inside. He isn't as reliant on the jumper, his defense has improved, and he's rebounding.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Home opener vs. the Kings

    My guess as to why Green played as little as he did even though his stats were pretty good is this. I watched him very closely last night and he makes more mistakes consistently than any Pacers player that I can remember. I hate to make a knee- jerk judgement, but his bb IQ and overall feel for the game is really poor. He doesn't know how play.

    He is a great athlete, and a pretty good shooter, but his passing is horrible, his team defense is really bad.

    Lance makes a lot of mistakes, and his ball IQ isn't so good either, but his feel for the game is much, much better than Green's



    and let me also say that Hayes is a great defender. He defended West as well one on one that I have seen. JVG always said that Hayes was one of the best defenders in the NBA and now I agree
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 11-04-2012 at 07:18 PM.

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