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Thread: Let's discuss Lance

  1. #176

    Default Re: Let's discuss Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Don't forget Seth, Mackey and BWD.
    Ah yes, the Lance has no discernible NBA talent/I think I know more than the Legend crew. I'm not positive those were the guys, but there certainly were several people here that thought Lance was useless, and it had nothing to do with his off court problems. Even if Lance continues to play like he his now and doesn't improve over the course of his career he's proven those folks to be dead wrong. I'm sure they want to see him play this way consistently for a few months before they eat their crow, which is fair, but they can't doubt his talent anymore.

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    Default Re: Let's discuss Lance

    The real question is does anyone think there's another player on the roster that's more talented than Lance? Not saying "better" but more talented? That's what Bird said, and you'd think people thought Larry went retro and cleaned out a case of Budweiser before making the comment.

    It's pretty evident that Lance can not only create his own shot, but create shots for others. Either through a two-man game, or just Lance being able to see the play/pass develop and being able to deliever the ball.

    Other than his good shooting numbers, there really isn't anything that is luck with him. The things he does well are the things that he can replicate.

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  4. #178
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    Default Re: Let's discuss Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    So that means that you are going to complain if he only averages 10ppg?
    Exactly. :P
    Lance + Starting SG = Awesome

    Now really free Lance!

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    Default Re: Let's discuss Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    The real question is does anyone think there's another player on the roster that's more talented than Lance? Not saying "better" but more talented? That's what Bird said, and you'd think people thought Larry went retro and cleaned out a case of Budweiser before making the comment.

    It's pretty evident that Lance can not only create his own shot, but create shots for others. Either through a two-man game, or just Lance being able to see the play/pass develop and being able to deliever the ball.

    Other than his good shooting numbers, there really isn't anything that is luck with him. The things he does well are the things that he can replicate.
    To take your point even further, the things he's not quite good at, (off the ball defense, silly turnovers, shot selection) are things that will easily improve with more time/experience on the court. I'd always rather have a young player who's overly aggressive and needs to learn when to pick and choose his spots, as opposed to having a guy who's got all the talent in the world but needs to be "pushed".

    The things Lance is doing, getting to the cup, shooting a decent % when left open from 3, are things that he can continue to do. If his J is falling he's very difficult to handle because he's strong, and can go left or right with his dribble.

  6. #180
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    Default Re: Let's discuss Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    The real question is does anyone think there's another player on the roster that's more talented than Lance? Not saying "better" but more talented? That's what Bird said, and you'd think people thought Larry went retro and cleaned out a case of Budweiser before making the comment.

    It's pretty evident that Lance can not only create his own shot, but create shots for others. Either through a two-man game, or just Lance being able to see the play/pass develop and being able to deliever the ball.

    Other than his good shooting numbers, there really isn't anything that is luck with him. The things he does well are the things that he can replicate.
    Talent wise, I think Lance and PG are right at the top. I include PG cause he's good at getting assists and is probably the best rebounding sg in the league. He really goes after those boards, and has that knack for knowing where the ball will carom off the rim. PGs handles are vastly improved over last season, and he also has a pretty shot. I also think PG has an above average basketball IQ.

    Lance has the handles and excellent court vision. He's worked on his shot and it's showing so far this season. Lance has also reigned in some of the mental mistakes that causes him to get a high number of TOs. He's obviously in the right flow of the game, where as before he was too slow or just much too fast. Even his defense has improved, but he's still got a lot of work to do there.

    I think both Lance and PG need to work on being more aggressive and attacking the basket more, and try to get to the FT line more.
    Last edited by Sparhawk; 11-12-2012 at 03:19 PM.
    Lance + Starting SG = Awesome

    Now really free Lance!

  7. #181

    Default Re: Let's discuss Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    The real question is does anyone think there's another player on the roster that's more talented than Lance? Not saying "better" but more talented? That's what Bird said, and you'd think people thought Larry went retro and cleaned out a case of Budweiser before making the comment.

    It's pretty evident that Lance can not only create his own shot, but create shots for others. Either through a two-man game, or just Lance being able to see the play/pass develop and being able to deliever the ball.

    Other than his good shooting numbers, there really isn't anything that is luck with him. The things he does well are the things that he can replicate.
    from what i have seen, lance is the best slasher and scorer on the team by a considerable margin. i think he can replace that element barbosa gave us from time to time. and throw in the ability to help create for others too. he has been the most pleasant surprise of this season for me no doubt.

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    Default Re: Let's discuss Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    The real question is does anyone think there's another player on the roster that's more talented than Lance? Not saying "better" but more talented? That's what Bird said, and you'd think people thought Larry went retro and cleaned out a case of Budweiser before making the comment.

    It's pretty evident that Lance can not only create his own shot, but create shots for others. Either through a two-man game, or just Lance being able to see the play/pass develop and being able to deliever the ball.

    Other than his good shooting numbers, there really isn't anything that is luck with him. The things he does well are the things that he can replicate.
    Yes and his name is Josh Mcroberts
    Last edited by vnzla81; 11-12-2012 at 04:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Let's discuss Lance

    It sure does feel nice getting a tiny bit of vindication for those of us who have been Lance's biggest prognosticators of his talent, potential and abilities as a basketball player.
    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    Plumlee reminds me of a young Dale Davis. Good rebounding and he contests shots well on defense and his offensive game is very raw just like DD's was coming out of college.
    "If my answers frighten you, then you should cease asking scary questions."

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    Default Re: Let's discuss Lance

    I'm glad Lance is doing something at last.


    But I still don't like him.

  11. #185

    Default Re: Let's discuss Lance

    I pity the fool...

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    Default Re: Let's discuss Lance

    Yeak kemo,.

    I remeber a lot of it all, talk of things like "he cant play at all, and should be cut immediately etc etc

    thats cool, we all make mistakes
    Sittin on top of the world!

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  15. #187
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    Default Re: Let's discuss Lance

    I never doubted his ability to pass and score the ball. But I did doubt his shooting and defense...so on that point I will admit I am surprised he has improved this much. I did not expect him to be shooting this well and I'm shocked how well he is defending. I am now convinced he is at least a good backup combo guard.

    At the same time, who have we played? Let's see how he attempts to guard DWade or LeBron. If he can handle that as well as Granger, for example, he will silence all of his critics.

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    Default Re: Let's discuss Lance

    Lance has 2 fundamental things going for him right now.

    1) His work on shooting has him as the primary/only solid 3pt threat on a team that desperately needs more than one.

    2) His playground style and desire to make things up on the fly are conducive to solving the other major issue the Pacers have which is no flow between players, and from that virtually no passing.


    Also I think Lance/Tyler show the best relationship on the team. Lance knows were Tyler is going to be and gets him the ball in a way we wish Hill or Paul were getting the ball to West or Roy.


    HOWEVER - I also thought Price was a great passer and for all the chest pounding in this thread I think only Sookie, myself and maybe 3 other posters thought Price was worth anything, and he just showed up and dropped double digit assists on the Pacers and nearly led his weak team to a road victory. So maybe let's cool the jets on the "we all showed you" angle. It's pretty 6 games vs meh teams and some god awful basketball early to make any calls.


    Paul shows more overall skill by far and clearly Green is a superior athlete. So for all this "he's the most talented player" talk, it's just nuts.


    In fact I think Lance is in a dangerous position right now. He's having some success, but due to his style and attitude he runs the risk of letting it go to his head and reverting into "bad Tinsley". He still gets way too cute with the ball when he starts feeling it, throws pointless moves into plays that go nowhere (ie, shake and bake, crossover, head fake, head fake, pull up 20 foot jumper for iron), and teeters on getting distracted with yapping about plays.



    Those 2 areas of strength I mentioned are VERY VALUABLE to this team, and the shooting especially is a credit to his work. But all the people saying they saw that in him are full of it because he wasn't a great outside shooter previously and had no history of it. Everyone has always loved his pointless hot sauce flair moves. That and his size.

    But the hot sauce at least isn't what's coming to fruition and making him better right now. It's the boring old shooting work and his willingness to take a shot.

    Lance is NOT DRAWING FOULS for all his perceived aggressiveness and ability to create his own shot (5 FTAs total, 1.1 per 36 ranks 10th on the team).

    His Assists per 36 is 4th and at 2.9 he's way behind the "non PG" Hill (6.4) and the pretty awful so far DJ (5.2). Paul George also leads him (3.2).

    So right now you have a good shooting backup guard that gets steals at the same rate as Hill, Paul or even DJ and turns it over at the same rate as Roy Hibbert has been.

    What Lance is right now is a good backup guard, he's killing that role I'd say. But he's not filling, let alone killing the "best guy on the team" role.

    This is just a case of expectations and looking better compared to the options. And at a rate of about 1 3PM per game, it's not like his scoring is changing the world. It's very helpful, very needed, but he'll have to up the contributions quite a bit before he's making good on the standard imagery put out by some of the fanboys.



    Frankly it should just be enough to say that a kid that used to flake out has finally put in enough serious work to make himself a useful weapon. To me that's enough compliment on it's own given his history, one that mirrors Gerald Green. That's where I'm hanging my "hope hat" right now. That and BAMF's post game.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 11-12-2012 at 10:55 PM.

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  18. #189

    Default Re: Let's discuss Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    To take your point even further, the things he's not quite good at, (off the ball defense, silly turnovers, shot selection) are things that will easily improve with more time/experience on the court. I'd always rather have a young player who's overly aggressive and needs to learn when to pick and choose his spots, as opposed to having a guy who's got all the talent in the world but needs to be "pushed".

    The things Lance is doing, getting to the cup, shooting a decent % when left open from 3, are things that he can continue to do. If his J is falling he's very difficult to handle because he's strong, and can go left or right with his dribble.
    re his off ball defense, I've saw noticeable improvements in the last few games. He's still not very good at maneuvering around screens, and opposing offenses are definitely picking on him by running him through single and often times double screens, but he's no longer dieing on them like he used to. He still not a good defender by any means, but he's steadily improving. I'd still like to see Frank take more advantage of our versatility defensively by hiding Lance on the least dangerous player 1-3 and letting Hill and Paul guard the other 2 more dangerous guys. There's really no reason for Lance to ever have to guard the best wing scorer when he's semi capable of guarding 3 positions depending on who the opponent is.

  19. #190

    Default Re: Let's discuss Lance

    Passing was never the issue with A.J., it was his shooting/shot selection and the fact that some us thought he was playing ahead of a guy with a much higher ceiling.

  20. #191
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    Default Re: Let's discuss Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparhawk View Post
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    The other thing that has surprised me about Lance is his conditioning. He looks ready to go all the time. I haven't really seen him laboring out there.
    But did he previously?

    I never doubted his size/strength or his conditioning. My concern was lots of flash to moves that didn't really gain any advantage in the end and often ate more clock than helped the play. This is why people liked him more at the SG, except he wasn't really looking like a natural shooting threat.

    I trust him to take shots now, obviously. But there's the risk that this is just a nice 8-17 streak over 7 games that won't hold up. It feels reliable but if this was player Q from Utah or GSW it wouldn't make me want to shove guys off the roster to get him, statistically speaking. In fact most of PD couldn't name any other 8 3PM so far guards for other teams. Martell Webster for Lance trade? How about trading for Jae Crowder? Lance for Bayless? Pondexter?

    These are guys making the same amount of 3s at the same rate, and most are scoring more overall and getting more assists.

    Lance was a 40th pick. In that regard he's a success because he's played the 25th most minutes in his class and might yet climb past a few more guys. He's 3rd in minutes past the 28th pick behind Fields and "token minutes" Harangody. Great bang for buck pick.



    ** Of course someone had to make a McRoberts joke, yet Josh is 6th in minutes at Orlando (ie, he's playing) and his P36 assists/TOs is 3.3 vs 1.3 (about 2.5 A/T ratio). Lance is dishing it at 2.9 vs 2.3 (about 1.3 A/T ratio). And per usual Josh is at 8.8 reb36 vs Tyler's 8.7 and 50% shooting vs 37%. So basically same old, same old. The Josh fans are just as right about him as the Lance fans.

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    Default Re: Let's discuss Lance

    ** Of course someone had to make a McRoberts joke, yet Josh is 6th in minutes at Orlando (ie, he's playing) and his P36 assists/TOs is 3.3 vs 1.3 (about 2.5 A/T ratio). Lance is dishing it at 2.9 vs 2.3 (about 1.3 A/T ratio). And per usual Josh is at 8.8 reb36 vs Tyler's 8.7 and 50% shooting vs 37%. So basically same old, same old. The Josh fans are just as right about him as the Lance fans.
    Yep lets use the holly per36 stats to make a point ...... Plumlee per36 is 18 and 9 by the way yep future all star .......

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    Default Re: Let's discuss Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    But did he previously?

    I never doubted his size/strength or his conditioning. My concern was lots of flash to moves that didn't really gain any advantage in the end and often ate more clock than helped the play. This is why people liked him more at the SG, except he wasn't really looking like a natural shooting threat.

    I trust him to take shots now, obviously. But there's the risk that this is just a nice 8-17 streak over 7 games that won't hold up. It feels reliable but if this was player Q from Utah or GSW it wouldn't make me want to shove guys off the roster to get him, statistically speaking. In fact most of PD couldn't name any other 8 3PM so far guards for other teams. Martell Webster for Lance trade? How about trading for Jae Crowder? Lance for Bayless? Pondexter?

    These are guys making the same amount of 3s at the same rate, and most are scoring more overall and getting more assists.

    Lance was a 40th pick. In that regard he's a success because he's played the 25th most minutes in his class and might yet climb past a few more guys. He's 3rd in minutes past the 28th pick behind Fields and "token minutes" Harangody. Great bang for buck pick.



    ** Of course someone had to make a McRoberts joke, yet Josh is 6th in minutes at Orlando (ie, he's playing) and his P36 assists/TOs is 3.3 vs 1.3 (about 2.5 A/T ratio). Lance is dishing it at 2.9 vs 2.3 (about 1.3 A/T ratio). And per usual Josh is at 8.8 reb36 vs Tyler's 8.7 and 50% shooting vs 37%. So basically same old, same old. The Josh fans are just as right about him as the Lance fans.
    Lance doesn't necessarily have the look of a guy that can play extended minutes. That takes more than just practicing your shot and dribble moves. Never thought he'd be one to train hard in cardio. Maybe it's cause of his build.
    Lance + Starting SG = Awesome

    Now really free Lance!

  24. #194
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    Default Re: Let's discuss Lance

    Anything positive from Lance this season is great...I hold my breath of further continuation.
    .

    Frank Vogel says "Killer instinct, start strong, build a lead and then step on their throats."

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    Default Re: Let's discuss Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    Anyone think we can get our own version of Linsanity? Pacers still have an offensive void and Lance looks to be in good position to fill it. Would it surprise anyone at this point if Lance runs off a string of 20 point games this season? I think the new Lance is capable of it.
    I was thinking the exact same thing...

    I don't think Lance is ever gonna be a superstar, but I'm definitely liking the potential of the Hill/Lance/PG backcourt, not just this year but for the next 5 years. If Granger sits out the whole year, continues to have injury issues, and we don't bring him back after next season, we could be looking at the long term starters for the Pacers. Or if Granger returns and PG doesn't show the type of improvement that warrents the kind of money that's gonna be offered to him in FA, maybe we'll be looking at a Hill/Lance/Granger backcourt...

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    Default Re: Let's discuss Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Yes and his name is Josh Mcroberts
    Good one....

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    Default Re: Let's discuss Lance

    I'm expecting Lance to destroy Toronto tonight
    David "And One" West

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    Default Re: Let's discuss Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Lance has 2 fundamental things going for him right now.

    1) His work on shooting has him as the primary/only solid 3pt threat on a team that desperately needs more than one.

    2) His playground style and desire to make things up on the fly are conducive to solving the other major issue the Pacers have which is no flow between players, and from that virtually no passing.
    Agreed. However, you make it sound like this is some sudden problem. We've had problem with movement, passing, penetration, and creativity for several years. Lance could possibly solve a longtime problem, not just something that popped up by Granger's absence.



    HOWEVER - I also thought Price was a great passer and for all the chest pounding in this thread I think only Sookie, myself and maybe 3 other posters thought Price was worth anything, and he just showed up and dropped double digit assists on the Pacers and nearly led his weak team to a road victory.
    For the record, I was always an AJ Price fan. I liked him better than Collison in terms of helping the entire offense. Unfortunately, he just couldn't hit a very high percentage. He rarely shot for us like he did for the Wiz the other night.



    So maybe let's cool the jets on the "we all showed you" angle. It's pretty 6 games vs meh teams and some god awful basketball early to make any calls.
    I didn't write the OP with "we all showed you" in mind. In drifted into that (not started by me) but I don't want that to be the main tenor of the thread. I think we can both agree that the most important thing is what helps the Pacers the most. You have a number of places you can say "I told you so," particularly the Tyler predictions, yet I never saw you wanting anything but to be shown wrong about Tyler in order to help the Pacers. Similarly, I am an admitted Lance fan, first and foremost because I am dying for the Pacers to finally come a across a legitimate creator/distributor to move us to the next level.



    Paul shows more overall skill by far
    Man, I just totally disagree.


    and clearly Green is a superior athlete. So for all this "he's the most talented player" talk, it's just nuts.
    Talent is not that related to athleticism. Think Larry Bird. I say Lance is more talented than Paul, far more talented than Green, and not as athletic as either.



    In fact I think Lance is in a dangerous position right now. He's having some success, but due to his style and attitude he runs the risk of letting it go to his head and reverting into "bad Tinsley". He still gets way too cute with the ball when he starts feeling it, throws pointless moves into plays that go nowhere (ie, shake and bake, crossover, head fake, head fake, pull up 20 foot jumper for iron), and teeters on getting distracted with yapping about plays.
    Generally agree with you here. I don't think his moves are pointless, I think they are generally effective, but I do have a similar fear that he resorts to playground ball and attitudes. The few games of this season have been very encouraging that this won't be a huge temptation for him.



    Those 2 areas of strength I mentioned are VERY VALUABLE to this team, and the shooting especially is a credit to his work. But all the people saying they saw that in him are full of it because he wasn't a great outside shooter previously and had no history of it. Everyone has always loved his pointless hot sauce flair moves. That and his size.
    Not me. From the first summer league, I saw a scorer. I saw a scorer that could shoot. Beyond that, my premise has always been that you don't hold the all time scoring record for New York without being able to shoot from the outside. The proof now seems to be in the pudding.



    But the hot sauce at least isn't what's coming to fruition and making him better right now. It's the boring old shooting work and his willingness to take a shot.
    This is what separates him from Paul George. Lance is more like West and Granger than he is Paul.



    But he's not filling, let alone killing the "best guy on the team" role. . . but he'll have to up the contributions quite a bit before he's making good on the standard imagery put out by some of the fanboys.
    I agree, but I think he needs to be given the opportunity to fill it. Sooner than later.
    Last edited by McKeyFan; 11-13-2012 at 10:09 AM.
    .

    .

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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Let's discuss Lance

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Lance has 2 fundamental things going for him right now.

    1) His work on shooting has him as the primary/only solid 3pt threat on a team that desperately needs more than one.

    2) His playground style and desire to make things up on the fly are conducive to solving the other major issue the Pacers have which is no flow between players, and from that virtually no passing.


    Also I think Lance/Tyler show the best relationship on the team. Lance knows were Tyler is going to be and gets him the ball in a way we wish Hill or Paul were getting the ball to West or Roy.


    HOWEVER - I also thought Price was a great passer and for all the chest pounding in this thread I think only Sookie, myself and maybe 3 other posters thought Price was worth anything, and he just showed up and dropped double digit assists on the Pacers and nearly led his weak team to a road victory. So maybe let's cool the jets on the "we all showed you" angle. It's pretty 6 games vs meh teams and some god awful basketball early to make any calls.


    Paul shows more overall skill by far and clearly Green is a superior athlete. So for all this "he's the most talented player" talk, it's just nuts.


    In fact I think Lance is in a dangerous position right now. He's having some success, but due to his style and attitude he runs the risk of letting it go to his head and reverting into "bad Tinsley". He still gets way too cute with the ball when he starts feeling it, throws pointless moves into plays that go nowhere (ie, shake and bake, crossover, head fake, head fake, pull up 20 foot jumper for iron), and teeters on getting distracted with yapping about plays.



    Those 2 areas of strength I mentioned are VERY VALUABLE to this team, and the shooting especially is a credit to his work. But all the people saying they saw that in him are full of it because he wasn't a great outside shooter previously and had no history of it. Everyone has always loved his pointless hot sauce flair moves. That and his size.

    But the hot sauce at least isn't what's coming to fruition and making him better right now. It's the boring old shooting work and his willingness to take a shot.

    Lance is NOT DRAWING FOULS for all his perceived aggressiveness and ability to create his own shot (5 FTAs total, 1.1 per 36 ranks 10th on the team).

    His Assists per 36 is 4th and at 2.9 he's way behind the "non PG" Hill (6.4) and the pretty awful so far DJ (5.2). Paul George also leads him (3.2).

    So right now you have a good shooting backup guard that gets steals at the same rate as Hill, Paul or even DJ and turns it over at the same rate as Roy Hibbert has been.

    What Lance is right now is a good backup guard, he's killing that role I'd say. But he's not filling, let alone killing the "best guy on the team" role.

    This is just a case of expectations and looking better compared to the options. And at a rate of about 1 3PM per game, it's not like his scoring is changing the world. It's very helpful, very needed, but he'll have to up the contributions quite a bit before he's making good on the standard imagery put out by some of the fanboys.



    Frankly it should just be enough to say that a kid that used to flake out has finally put in enough serious work to make himself a useful weapon. To me that's enough compliment on it's own given his history, one that mirrors Gerald Green. That's where I'm hanging my "hope hat" right now. That and BAMF's post game.
    I was a Price supporter. Couldn't understand why they would let him go in favor of Augustin. Price would have been cheaper and more versatile.

    'Throw Baby Mama Down the Stairs' Lance is having a good year so far. Great for him since he is playing for next years contract.


    Still don't like the fool.

  31. #200

    Default Re: Let's discuss Lance

    I never understood the Price v Lance arguments. I always felt that Price wasn't playing over Lance, and Price was a point guard and Lance wasn't. (And I think I'm still right there.) With AJ's game here, I was just happy to see he clearly has/had a good reputation (to say the least) with the Pacers organization. (Particularly Tyler, Hill, and Frank.). The way the organization likes their point guards to play is pretty much like a combo guard. (And I think that stems back to Larry..) And AJ was probably better off on a team that prefers a more traditional PG approach. For those wondering, Jim O'brien's system still hasn't been fully exorcised from AJ's game..it's mostly gone, but there's usually about a two minute span per game where Jimmy shows up again. :P

    Lance, I'm happy to see that not only does he appear to have grown up (most important) but his game is clearly improving. I think his talent level is exaggerated because of his flashiness. (No, I don't think he's close to being the most talented Pacer.) Then again, I think we likely all have different definitions of talent anyway.

    The reason though, as Naptown pointed out, he's having as much success as he is, is because of his improved shooting. Which was never (from 3) in his game before the NBA or in his past two seasons. He also has calmed down his playground approach, and learned to make more simple plays (although not as much as he should.) which helps a lot as well. I'm not saying this to "beat up" on him. I'm just saying calm down guys. He's been our best bench player. He does have talent, and if he stays consistent and improves in the areas he needs to improve in he could be a very good 3rd guard. (Which he's shown he's willing to do.) I'm happy to eat crow about his maturity and transition from playground to NBA. (Which, kudos to the Pacers for taking the time to do that. Knuckleheads work out for NBA teams like .1% of the time. The Pacers obviously did a fantastic job in helping him grow on and off the court. ) But it's only been a year and a half since he's done something stupid. And it's only been about 5 games of playing well. So hold on to the "I told you so" thing.
    Last edited by Sookie; 11-13-2012 at 03:31 PM.

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