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Thread: Odd Thoughts: Loss to the Bobcats

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Odd Thoughts: Loss to the Bobcats

    Believe me when I tell you Iím not Mr. Statís guy by any means & donít EVER look to me to provide you with an advanced statistical break down but I canít start tonightís post off without reviewing two statistics that donít only stand out to me they offend me.

    First & foremost we shot the ball 26 times from behind the three point arc This is the first sign of the damned in my opinion. There is nothing wrong with using it as a tool but for Godís sake this tool became a sledge hammer & it was used against us. Our offense was just beyond horrid & thus this is the shot we resorted to.

    Second & as important (if not more important considering we lost by one) is that we missed 11 free throws. WE MISSED ELEVEN FREETHROWS!!!!!

    Needless to say tonightís thoughts are not going to be filled with comfort & joy, but weíre not going to panic either. We are just going to step back & look at this as best we can.

    So letís begin.

    We have played two games and letís just be honest here we have not played well in either of them. Some of it we are the lucky recipients of playing opening night in two teams arenaís, some of it is we are now a known commodity and thus teams are bringing it at us & frankly some of it is just purely crappy play by our team.

    Letís not let the coaching staff off of the hook either because as much as I love Frank he has to take the blame for this absolutely pointless offense & honestly some real questionable substitutions.

    I mean letís just look at tonight. He takes out the two players (Tyler & Lance) who almost by themselves have brought us back into the game & replaces them. Not because either was slowing down or being less effective. He brought them out because it was time to bring them out. As suspected the team stagnates and we are never able to get over the hump. He plays George Hill an enormous amount of time when in fact he has been horrible on both ends of the floor and limits Augustin when he was very effective at running the offense.

    He has a bad habit that I think he learned from you know who about not getting a time out when teams make big runs and by the time he does do it our team has to usually come back from a double digit deficit.

    He obviously did not have the team prepared to handle a full court press and then a standard 2-3 zone and sorry but that is his job.

    Look it was pretty obvious that the Bobcats were going to not let Roy dominate the game as they were coming at him with triple teams early & often but where I was disgusted was in the fact that our team does not cut or move off of the ball. Again this is a coaching issue because if they are not doing it put someone in who will.

    Iím not giving up on Frank but he needs to take these past two games and learn from them.

    Letís do the good the bad & the ugly.

    The Good: (yes believe it or not there was some good out there)

    Tyler Hansbrough came in and imposed his will on the game. If only he could play in Carolina 82 games a year he might well be an actual star in our league. As it is we will just have to enjoy the couple of times a year he getís to go there. Honestly what more could you ask from him. He scored, he rebounded, he hustled & he even blocked two shots. Heck he even set a screen (it was a moving screen but whoís counting) that gave Lance Stephenson a wide open three point shot. So while the team did poorly it had nothing to do with Tylerís play he did very well.

    Lance Stephenson also was good. In fact he was better at running the point tonight than Hill was and yes guys he played the point position on offense quite few times tonight. He was quick with the ball he made good decisions and most importantly of all he attacked their zone defense. If he continues on this path I would definitely think we should consider him with the starting five & moving Paul to the three if Gerald canít snap out of this in a hurry. I donít expect this every game but when it does occur you just shake your head and wonder why it canít happen all the time. Iíve said it before & Iíll say it again he has the perfect body and he has the skill the only thing that has ever hindered him is him.

    D.J. Augustin shot very poorly so I really donít feel good in putting him in the good category but since our offense was so abysmal whenever he wasnít in I canít avoid it either. He will improve Tyler by just hitting him with these picture perfect passes and it has already happened two or three times tonight. Defense wasnít as bad as it was in the pre-season either but then again anything would have been better that the one legged defense that Hill put on Walker.

    Ian getís honorable mention, not that he was all that good but at least he didnít look like a toad like our starting unit did. He played better in this game than he did in Toronto so that is a positive sign.

    The Bad:

    Can I just say our starting unit & coaching staff and leave it at that?

    George Hill was just abysmal all night long on both ends of the floor but never more so than when he was trying to run our half court offense. There were at least three times that he dribbled the ball out top of the key and waited till the 9 second mark for West to come out and set a pick by then it was late in the shot clock so he put up some rushed off balance clunker. Now a lot of this is the fault of West or one of the other players for not rotating out to help (really a lot of this falls on Frank) but George has to move with the ball and not just stand there with it. Get the offense moving with penetration and stop just looking to make an around the horn pass for one of our abundant three point shot attempts. Iíll give him a break on Walker going off because he is playing on a bum wheel but he really did not handle the pressure defense at all tonight.

    Gerald Green is just out of his element right now. Only two games so there can be no long term proclamations made here but I think itís safe to assume he would be better playing in the second unit against second unit defenders. Not his fault mind you as he is playing a role he was not ready for but I think a lot of people on here who watched pre-season and got all excited have to have some disappointment right now.

    Paul George did not play bad, really if we were just looking at him objectively we would just put his game in the ok to maybe even low side of good category. But here is the problem, we have been told by everybody that this guy is ready to break out and there have been many people who have said get rid of Danny because he his holding back Paul. When we look at this game under the microscope of ďis this a franchise playerĒ I think that we have to say that this was a bad game. At no point in time did he ever impose his will on the game, he never made the Bobcats adjust their team defense to adapt to him, he never took over the game defensively. These are the things that stars do and right now Paul is supposed to be a star. Again understand what Iím saying here, he didnít have a bad game when we just look at him as Paul George starting wing player for the Pacers, but when you look at him as Paul George breakout star of the Pacers I think it was a bad game.

    The Ugly:

    I wish I could find the video of it but Gerald Green made two bounce passes (one to Tyler & one to Paul) that hit the ground about one foot away from both of them causing two turn overs. He will never be confused with Tim Hardaway.




    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Loss to the Bobcats

    Quick reaction: he shouldn't have taken Lance out but Tyler was getting killed defensively with West. One of them had to go out.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Loss to the Bobcats

    One more: of our three young gun perimeter players (GG, George, and Lance), Lance was by far the most comfortable on the floor. I was just constantly afraid of what would happen when either of the other two got the ball
    Spoiler Spoiler:

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Loss to the Bobcats

    Look at the brightside: as of today, we have an infinitely better record than the Lakers.


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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Loss to the Bobcats

    First, I really hope that people don't become impatient with Paul George. PG has high expectations for himself, but he is ahead of schedule from where we thought he'd be when he was drafted.

    Second, obviously there's some offensive issues. Not to be unexpected at the beginning of the year without our best player. I'm taking the wait and see approach here. Our team also just stinks at moving without the ball. Something that needs to be improved on, but it's so fundamental that I don't even know if it's past the point where you can teach it and it becomes innate to the players we have. Also, poor Hill isn't a point guard. I don't think Lance is either, but he looked like far more of one today than Hill.

    Third, also not surprising that team's press. (Although I think that's actually something Charlotte does.) We really don't have the best ball handlers at the 2 position, so unless there's DJ and Hill (and even he's not a fantastic ball handler) on the floor at the same time, I'd press the Pacers too. And it's likely to be successful.

    Seems like this is going to be similar to last year. Our team does well when George Hill does well. We're just putting him in a tougher position.

  8. #6

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Loss to the Bobcats

    I'm not worried about Paul George at all. He's about 4 or 5 points a game on his average, away from putting up a 18/10/6 line. Is that not a breakout season? If he's putting out a 18/7/5 line, with 2 stls a game, we will all be gushing. I will at least. I think he's gunna have a great game tonight against the Kings.

  9. #7

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Loss to the Bobcats

    Also, Tyler imposed his will because he was playing the Bobcats. It has nothing to do with Charlotte. Better teams are smart enough to not let him be a factor. Play him hard. Close out on the 15 footer. Hope he doesnt flale one in. Dont foul. Pretty simple.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Loss to the Bobcats

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    He obviously did not have the team prepared to handle a full court press and then a standard 2-3 zone and sorry but that is his job.
    Haralabos Voulgaris, the NBA gambler, said this about it on twitter:

    Haralabos Voulgaris@haralabob
    Just finished watching IND@CHA super impressed with the Job Dunlap did, CHA pressed full court at times, played 2 different types of zones

    Haralabos Voulgaris@haralabob
    Dunlap basically coached every possession of the game, Ty Thomas almost killed it for them down the stretch, but he correctly subbed him out

    Haralabos Voulgaris@haralabob
    Teams that aren't prepared for an active defense that zones up, traps fullcourt and talks, might get shocked. All in all fun game to watch.


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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Loss to the Bobcats

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tuts Tomb View Post
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    Haralabos Voulgaris, the NBA gambler, said this about it on twitter:

    Haralabos Voulgaris@haralabob
    Just finished watching IND@CHA super impressed with the Job Dunlap did, CHA pressed full court at times, played 2 different types of zones

    Haralabos Voulgaris@haralabob
    Dunlap basically coached every possession of the game, Ty Thomas almost killed it for them down the stretch, but he correctly subbed him out

    Haralabos Voulgaris@haralabob
    Teams that aren't prepared for an active defense that zones up, traps fullcourt and talks, might get shocked. All in all fun game to watch.

    Same kinda stuff I mentioned in the game thread. Charlotte's not gonna win a lot, just don't have much offensive talent, but they're going to annoy the hell out of a lot of teams. Maybe it was him watching tape and saying hey these guys can't pass for **** so trap trap trap and he'll switch it up, but even if he does I'll probably be more impressed. It's a miniscule sample but that Dunlap guy had them extremely prepared.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Loss to the Bobcats

    I'm getting sick of Vogel's pre-set rotations.If a player is hot at the time and it's time to go out,then don't get him out!!!!That's what happened with Lance and Tyler although rexnom has a point.West and Hansbrough is not a good match defensively and that was evident yesterday.
    Every defeat hurts but when you lose from the Bobcats then it's way more painful as you are much better than them of course,an inexcusable loss that will hinder your overall record and you might look at it and bitterly regret it at the end of the regular season and finally alarming for your current state and the upcoming matches.That offense looks really ugly.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Loss to the Bobcats

    Quote Originally Posted by Johanvil View Post
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    I'm getting sick of Vogel's pre-set rotations.If a player is hot at the time and it's time to go out,then don't get him out!!!!That's what happened with Lance and Tyler although rexnom has a point.West and Hansbrough is not a good match defensively and that was evident yesterday.
    Every defeat hurts but when you lose from the Bobcats then it's way more painful as you are much better than them of course,an inexcusable loss that will hinder your overall record and you might look at it and bitterly regret it at the end of the regular season and finally alarming for your current state and the upcoming matches.That offense looks really ugly.
    It happens. Every now and then, teams put up clunkers against teams they would normally handle. See Celtics v. Bucks, or the Knicks blowing Miami out last night. We played horrible, and even still had the game winning ball in hand.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Loss to the Bobcats

    If we want to make excuses for Hill that's fine, I can somewhat sympathize. Even though I side with "you're healthy enough to be on the floor then you're healthy enough to lay something above AWFUL," if that's the type of player you are then OK. He's banged up, I get being step slow.

    Except he's not a step slow. George Hill is a terrible on ball defender provided he's in a Pacers uniform. Jameer Nelson torched him last hear because apparently he's never heard of fighting through a screen. And he's our point guard for the next 5 years. Hill's a solid rotational player. Spending 40 mil on this dude for the next 5 years is looking like an extreme detriment. His scoring capability is hitting an open jumper. He's a **** defender now appparently. He does move without the ball fairly well (because he's not a point guard).

    I don't dislike having Hill on the team. But I abhor not letting him test the restricted market. It was monumentally dumb. Meanwhile, Kawhi Leaonard...

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    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Loss to the Bobcats

    I'm a big Lance fan and I don't necessarily have a big beef with his minutes last night. He got significantly more than usual, first because of Young's injury, second because of Green's suckage. Vogel kept Lance in far longer than he ordinarily would have. He even put him in a couple of possessions at the very end.

    I'm more interested to see if Lance's minutes incrementally increase over the long haul. Last night's minutes were fine.

    We lost because PG could not step up and Hill was off his game. If Hill's injury is a problem, then that's on Vogel. Let's hope he gets pulled next game, if that's the case.

    Also, with Tyler, he played a few more minutes than usual as well, I think. At one point, we had West playing the 5 so the hot hand Tyler could stay in the game. I think Vogel did what he could. Look, the subs did everything they are called on to do. They had massive +/- advantage and the starters were the opposite. I think we can expect Frank to extend the minutes of the hot hands, which he did, but I don't think we can expect him to totally replace the starters. That kind of action requires a larger sample of games where certain players shine and others don't peform well.
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    ďPeople talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but heís really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.Ē óLarry Brown

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Loss to the Bobcats

    I thought I was flashing back three seasons - Roy seldom got below the elbow or the high post when he was on the floor in the second half, the preferred offense seemed to be to stand around the perimeter and jack up a three point shot, the defense gave up easy shots by trying to double without cutting off passing lanes, defenders were focusing on trying to poke or steal the ball instead of guarding their man...



    I can only hope it was "opposite night" last night and that none of that is REALLY what they worked on in camp. I'm willing to give it a few games to see what shakes out, but if this continues I'll be looking at the coaching staff - sure, if we hit FTs and a couple of 3s we'd have come out of this with a win, but that was NOT the kind of offense I wanted to see put in place.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Loss to the Bobcats

    I missed the game last night until the last half of the fourth quarter, when the Pacers decided they would turn the ball over everytime they cut the deficit to one. My only thoughts were that Lance looked good playing with the starters (they had Green out, and Lance and it seemed Lance and Hill were both PG/SGs) and that it's heart breaking to lose a game by one when you can't hit free throws. Hat's off to Tyler for being the only player to shoot FTs well last night.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Loss to the Bobcats

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    If we want to make excuses for Hill that's fine, I can somewhat sympathize. Even though I side with "you're healthy enough to be on the floor then you're healthy enough to lay something above AWFUL," if that's the type of player you are then OK. He's banged up, I get being step slow.

    Except he's not a step slow. George Hill is a terrible on ball defender provided he's in a Pacers uniform. Jameer Nelson torched him last hear because apparently he's never heard of fighting through a screen. And he's our point guard for the next 5 years. Hill's a solid rotational player. Spending 40 mil on this dude for the next 5 years is looking like an extreme detriment. His scoring capability is hitting an open jumper. He's a **** defender now appparently. He does move without the ball fairly well (because he's not a point guard).

    I don't dislike having Hill on the team. But I abhor not letting him test the restricted market. It was monumentally dumb. Meanwhile, Kawhi Leaonard...
    Kawhi Leonard had a horrible game against OKC. Players have bad games, unfortunately it happens. Idk why so many posters continue to point to that trade. Leonard isnt as good as PG right now, nd had we kept him, he wouldnt be as good as he is now (lack of PT, not playing with HOF talent or coaching) yes he's a nice young player, but constantly bringing it up whenever Hill plays bad isn't necessary. We've played our best ball with him as our starter. I thought that was obvious, but maybe it was just me.

    I'm not ready to completely write off Hill. BUT as he goes, we go. If he's too injured to play, sit his A**. If not, then he and PG need to shoot the ball more, and quit looking to the post EVERY play.

    Our perimeter players lack of aggression offensively is annoying. Yes we want to post up and play inside out, but it shouldn't be "pass into post, look for kick out pass, then Re-post. It's too predictable and slows us down as the bigs fight for position. THAT'S ON VOGEL!

    Vogel has been out coached in about 4 straight games dating back to last season. These sub patterns are questionable and our team isn't playing smart bball right now.

    All in all, we're 1-1 and playing horribly. We hit two more FT's last night and we win. It's early and I think we'll snap out of it. I'd rather be playing our best ball at playoff time. BOS lost to MIL, DEN lost to ORL, and MIA lost badly to NY. So we aren't the only ones struggling right now lol.

    Im Going to the game tonight and I'm pumped to watch the team play well.
    Last edited by Ace E.Anderson; 11-03-2012 at 10:16 AM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Loss to the Bobcats

    this was a mental loss more than anything else. When you can't convert your free throws and don't manage to get out of the half with the intensity which we were known for last year, this is all from the mental aspect of the game. We lacked focus and took the kitties too lightly - hopefully we managed to learn a lesson from this - but after all these years in the league, if the players and the coaches haven't learned this valuable lesson yet, not sure if they will ever really learn it.

    I haven't been impressed with our 3rd QT performance the last 2 games so far - we used to whoop butt last year and jump on the team after the half - but the last 2 games we came out with lackluster playing and managed to get outscored in both of the 3rd QT.

    We need our mojo back - forget smashmouth basketball - we aren't even playing regular basketball these days.

    If these 2 teams we just played had any sort of real talent, we would've gotten blown out 2 in a row.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Loss to the Bobcats

    I'd say it may be a blessing in disguise to have lost. Otherwise, we would think things are somewhat okay.
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    ďPeople talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but heís really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.Ē óLarry Brown

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Loss to the Bobcats

    Wheres the kneejerk reaction thread?
    "Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Loss to the Bobcats

    In regards to Green, I'm going to keep trying to remind people not to get too low on Green when his jumper isn't there, and not to get too high on him when it is. He's a streaky shooter who's great when he has some confidence and not so great when he doesn't. Don't think those first couple games have been great for his confidence, but he'll get it back eventually. Also tend to agree that he'll be better with the 2nd unit when he's getting some more plays run for him.

    A Gerald Green fan who now finds himself rooting for the Suns.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Loss to the Bobcats

    Quote Originally Posted by repole View Post
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    In regards to Green, I'm going to keep trying to remind people not to get too low on Green when his jumper isn't there, and not to get too high on him when it is. He's a streaky shooter who's great when he has some confidence and not so great when he doesn't. Don't think those first couple games have been great for his confidence, but he'll get it back eventually. Also tend to agree that he'll be better with the 2nd unit when he's getting some more plays run for him.
    His shooting isn't really the issue. It's the rest of his game and the horrid turnovers that are more alarming.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Loss to the Bobcats

    Quote Originally Posted by repole View Post
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    In regards to Green, I'm going to keep trying to remind people not to get too low on Green when his jumper isn't there, and not to get too high on him when it is. He's a streaky shooter who's great when he has some confidence and not so great when he doesn't. Don't think those first couple games have been great for his confidence, but he'll get it back eventually. Also tend to agree that he'll be better with the 2nd unit when he's getting some more plays run for him.
    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    His shooting isn't really the issue. It's the rest of his game and the horrid turnovers that are more alarming.
    Yea I can live with bad shooting nights, I can't live with the level of awfulness his entry passes have reached

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Loss to the Bobcats

    I was one of the few that thought he played okay in Toronto despite the 6 turnovers, but yeah, last night he let his problems offensively affect his defense. It was definitely mental last night. You don't miss all 4 of your free throws, mostly short, unless you're playing tight.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Loss to the Bobcats

    I know is only two games but so far the money the Pacers spend this off season looks like a waste of money, not only that but they gave a bunch of long term contracts to unproven players, they are hoping too much from some of the players they signed.

    They are hoping that Hill becomes the starting point guard of the future, they are hoping that Roy stops playing soft and doesn't dissapear, they are hoping that Ian can catch the ball and be better than he was in Dallas, they are hoping that Green's 31 games of playing well for the first time in five years last year was not a fluke, way too much hope and if's for a team that wants to compete for a championship.

    They are also hoping Danny comes back 100% and that he gets back to his old self.

    Note: this is my opinion so please take your complains to the administrators
    Last edited by vnzla81; 11-03-2012 at 02:22 PM.

  37. #25

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Loss to the Bobcats

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I know is only two games but so far the money the Pacers spend this off season looks like a waste of money, not only that but they gave a bunch of long term contracts to unproven players, they are hoping too much from some of the players they signed.

    They are hoping that Hill becomes the starting point guard of the future, they are hoping that Roy stops playing soft and doesn't dissapear, they are hoping that Ian can catch the ball and be better than he was in Dallas, they are hoping that Green's 31 games of playing well for the first time in five years last year was not a fluke, way too much hope and if's for a team that wants to compete for a championship.

    They are also hoping Danny comes back 100% and that he gets back to his old self.

    Note: this is my opinion so please take your complains to the administrators
    Anymore it's not your sometimes poor basketball analysis that draws ire, but it's your constant use of playing the victim.

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