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Thread: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

  1. #2126

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    He is a good player. Solid, feisty defender at the PG spot. He is athletic and plays with energy. Good rebounder for a PG, has the ability to penetrate and dish. Not the greatest shooter of all time but he can keep a defense honest.

    I really want the Pacers to utilize the international market more. You can find gems if you know how to do it.

    I started to notice him towards the end of the game. He looked like he could defend. It looked like he had long arms was was athletic. Just thinking about him as a possible b/u PG next year.

    I wish you'd put a bug in the Pacers FO ears about some good International players you think would be a good player in the future.

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  3. #2127

    Default Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

    Quote Originally Posted by Cubs231721 View Post
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    Exactly. It took Delfino until August 13th to sign a 1 year deal with a team option for a 2nd year. He waited until free agency was just about over (it had been over a month since free agency started) before he settled for that little. Green wasn't signing that sort of deal (1 year with 2 team options) in the first week of free agency. He would have waited just like Delfino did to see if something better came along.
    Bird called Dahntay right after midnight the year DJ was a FA, and signed him to a 4 year contract too. Being 1st or the earliest doesn't make it the best decision. Not to metion, I highly doubt Green was in that high of demand from other teams.

    You'd be surprised at the bench players who have TO years or numerous unguaranteed years on their contracts. Having patience can have it's benefits, and a player who has never succeeded in BB b4 his last 30 plus games isn't someone to rush into sign. I'll play the devil's advocate and ask how's that rushing in to signing Green paying off? As I've said b4, I wasn't against signing Green, I just don't like his FULLY GUARANTEED CONTRACT. IMO, it was poor management. If he ends up not being the player expected, the guaranteed contract makes it a blunder. If Augustin doesn't produce, he's only a 1 year mistake, and not a 3 year mistake.

  4. #2128

    Default Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    The formula is going to be pretty simple when the Pacers start trading players because they don't have the cap space to pay them all, West at 10mil is ok but I believe he is going to get more and knowing Walsh he is going to pay whatever it takes.

    No formula is needed to figure out that the Pacers are overpaying some players, teams in the NBA can only have an amount of overpay players, so far the Pacers are overpaying Roy for few millions, they are overpaying Danny by a lot, they are overpaying Hill by few millions, Tyler, DJ,Green are way overpay, Ian is overpay but for the sake of argument lets say that "the best backup center in the NBA" is not overpay, I don't think you can build a championship team in an small market like Indiana by just throwing money around like a drunk sailor, that's a recipe to fail.

    Tyler is on a rookie contract. The Pacers are paying Tyler what the NBA dictates. 3 mil for Tyler isn't exactly overpaying him.

    I must confess since DWest has become a Pacer Tyler's last 2 seasons stats has regressed. Partly b/c of less PT, and partly b/c of his poor production. It will be interesting to see who the b/u PF is next year.

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    Default Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

    Quote Originally Posted by spreedom View Post
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    $50 says no fine or warning for this.
    It looks more like Griffin saw the elbow coming...avoided it by moving his head / body back and then re-engaged Nene. This wasn't like the Bosh head-fake with Boozer where he went down like a bag of potatoes.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    The formula is going to be pretty simple when the Pacers start trading players because they don't have the cap space to pay them all, West at 10mil is ok but I believe he is going to get more and knowing Walsh he is going to pay whatever it takes.

    No formula is needed to figure out that the Pacers are overpaying some players, teams in the NBA can only have an amount of overpay players, so far the Pacers are overpaying Roy for few millions, they are overpaying Danny by a lot, they are overpaying Hill by few millions, Tyler, DJ,Green are way overpay, Ian is overpay but for the sake of argument lets say that "the best backup center in the NBA" is not overpay, I don't think you can build a championship team in an small market like Indiana by just throwing money around like a drunk sailor, that's a recipe to fail.
    The Pacers paid Market value for Hibbert.......they didn't bid against themselves like they did for Inferno or Foster ( if I recall correctly ) and paid more than they had to. Is it more than what you'd be comfortable paying? Given his current production...I'm guessing that you're answer is yes....but given the revelation about his wrist injury and that he hasn't faded into the background on the defensive end....would your answer be different if he was producing at the same level as last season?

    As for Granger, same thing here....at the time that he was paid....Granger was getting roughly the same amount....in other words, Market value....as Players in the same tier as he was ( Iggy and Deng ).

    For GH.....I agree it's debatable that he's overpaid......cuz it's possible that they were bidding against themselves....but I ( and my guess is others ) think that we are paying a good price for a Starting Quality PG. Sure, he's not in the same league as DWill, Westbrook or CP3...heck, not even in the same tier as Jrue Holiday....but given that he's running the offense the way that Vogel wants to, all the intangilbles and the defense.....I'm okay with what he was paid.

    For Hansbrough...as someone pointed out....he's on a Rookie Contract.

    As for DJ and Green, I'm not going to disagree there.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  8. #2131

    Default Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

    Quote Originally Posted by shags View Post
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    He's not collecting checks. The Rockets have been fining him for a couple months since he won't show up for anything. It'd actually cost them more money to cut him since his first two years are guaranteed.
    I believe they fined him at the start of the season, but that was only 1 game, 15k or something. A couple weeks ago there were talks that they would start fining him again unless he shows up for the D-League and he made a big deal out of it on twitter, but I've no idea how that ended. He should have plenty of money by now.

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    Default Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    It looks more like Griffin saw the elbow coming...avoided it by moving his head / body back and then re-engaged Nene. This wasn't like the Bosh head-fake with Boozer where he went down like a bag of potatoes.
    That doesn't look like a flinch to me. It looks like a flop to me.

  12. #2134

    Default Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

    Quote Originally Posted by MAStamper View Post
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    That doesn't look like a flinch to me. It looks like a flop to me.
    me too.

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    Default Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    The Pacers paid Market value for Hibbert.......they didn't bid against themselves like they did for Inferno or Foster ( if I recall correctly ) and paid more than they had to. Is it more than what you'd be comfortable paying? Given his current production...I'm guessing that you're answer is yes....but given the revelation about his wrist injury and that he hasn't faded into the background on the defensive end....would your answer be different if he was producing at the same level as last season?
    Yes the Pacers paid market value for Hibbert because they had no choice that is what I'm afraid of with West, a team like Houston or Atlanta are going to offer him some crazy contract and screw the Pacers.

    As for Granger, same thing here....at the time that he was paid....Granger was getting roughly the same amount....in other words, Market value....as Players in the same tier as he was ( Iggy and Deng ).
    You keep making my point "market value" is what made NY give Amare 20mil a year, "market value" is what gave Gilbert Arenas that ridiculous contract, paying "market value" doesn't stop a player for been overpay.

    For GH.....I agree it's debatable that he's overpaid......cuz it's possible that they were bidding against themselves....but I ( and my guess is others ) think that we are paying a good price for a Starting Quality PG. Sure, he's not in the same league as DWill, Westbrook or CP3...heck, not even in the same tier as Jrue Holiday....but given that he's running the offense the way that Vogel wants to, all the intangilbles and the defense.....I'm okay with what he was paid.
    I'm OK with Hill's contract because I'm a Hill fan but that doesn't stop me for thinking that he is a bit overpay, like I said before you can only have so many overpay players, it's even worse if you are an small market team, just look what OKC had to do because they are over the quote of overpay players.

    For Hansbrough...as someone pointed out....he's on a Rookie Contract.
    Rookie contract or not somebody can be overpay, 4mil for Tyler is a lot, remember that I am also a Tyler Hansbrough fan.

    As for DJ and Green, I'm not going to disagree there.
    Here is the part that I'm worry about
    (much like they did when they matched Portlandís offer for Roy Hibbert).
    remember the time we thought nobody was going to offer Hibbert the kind of contract he got? how is that working out? yes his D is good but his offense has been horrible and for the money he is making he needs to be scoring way more than what he is scoring right now.

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    Default Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

    The only thing I'm seeing is 'they're overpaid because the team won't have the cap space to pay everybody'. You have identified the following eight (8) Pacers as being overpaid:

    1. David West
    2. Danny Granger
    3. Roy Hibbert
    4. George Hill
    5. Ian Mahinmi
    6. Gerald Green
    7. Tyler Hansbrough
    8. DJ Augustin

    Going player by player, one at a time, what is your standard or criteria for describing each of them individually as overpaid?

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  16. #2137

    Default Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    Joey aint played I paused a bit and just got to the 1 min in the 3rd. I just wouldnt talk if Joey is reffing LO just cost him self 3k because Joey is in rare form you gotta be smarter when Joey is in this kind of mode.

    Nene did LOL at Joey after that delay of game, but with that smile I dont think Joey cared lol.


    in other news CP3 has the ball on a string tonight and that fast break Blake griffin ran was Webber esk that is why basketball players are the best athletes on the planet that lay was just silly.

    Joey's worse than a WNBA ref. And there aren't many refs I'll say are worse than a WNBA ref. As hilarious as he was last night. What was it, 4 Techs two warnings and a delay of game and a bunch of terrible calls. And the funniest bit was it wasn't even a chippy game. It was physical but not in a dirty way..and most of the players just kept looking at each other like "WTF?"

  17. #2138

    Default Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

    so find a roster full of diamonds in the rough you can get cheaply and convince to play in Indiana and win a title with them. that easy guys.

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  19. #2139

    Default Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

    nice start by the Raptors.

    AAron Gray at center

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    Default Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

    Quote Originally Posted by MAStamper View Post
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    The only thing I'm seeing is 'they're overpaid because the team won't have the cap space to pay everybody'. You have identified the following eight (8) Pacers as being overpaid:
    1. David West
    David West is not overpay this year 10mil is fine for him, I expect him to get way more than that next year making him overpay.

    2. Danny Granger
    Danny has been overpay for few years now, he is in the same category of overpay players like Iguadola, Deng and Gay, maybe not overpay by much when healthy (3/4mil) but overpay still.

    3. Roy Hibbert
    9.7 and 8 for a guy that is making 14mil a year for the next 4 years? I love Roy but he is becoming one of the must overpay players in the league, hopefully he gets better, and like I said before I think it was the right decision to overpay for him.

    4. George Hill
    I love Hill but the Pacers made a mistake in not letting the market set the price, guys like Felton, DJ, Hinrich and others were free agents, I think he is getting overpay for like 3mil, similar players(Felton, Hinrich, Jarret Jack) are making way less.

    5. Ian Mahinmi
    I compare Ian's salary and productivity with other backups and my problem with Ian is not that he is making 4mil a year but that he is making them for the next 4 years, those 4 millions are going to hurt the Pacers when is time to resign Danny, West, Paul George and Lance, I guess I'm not a fan of paying a backup that kind of money if that backup doesn't bring an specialty, Ian to me is not the difference between winning a championship or not.

    6. Gerald Green
    Why no sign Barbosa for vet minimum instead of signing this guy? no only he is making 3 millions but he is making them for the next 3 years, the guy needs to be in the D league.

    7. Tyler Hansbrough
    4mil is a lot for Tyler and I love the guy.

    8. DJ Augustin
    Overpay but thanks god is only for one year.

    Going player by player, one at a time, what is your standard or criteria for describing each of them individually as overpaid?
    My way to find out if a player is overpay or not is to compare them to similar players in the NBA, call it looking at "the green grass" or whatever, like I said before I believe that a team can have no more than 4 overpay players, an small market team doesn't have the luxury to overpay players, at this moment on the Pacers the only players that are producing over their salaries and are underpay in a way are West(this year), Paul George(rookie salary), Lance(second round contract), after that you look at the whole team and is hard to find a player that is over performing to his salary.




    Note that I'm looking to have a good conversation so those that feel the need to make smart a** comments please stay away, thanks.
    Last edited by vnzla81; 01-20-2013 at 01:57 PM.

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    Default Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    so find a roster full of diamonds in the rough you can get cheaply and convince to play in Indiana and win a title with them. that easy guys.
    Not what I said, good job in not bringing anything to the conversation.

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    Default Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

    So your statement about overpaying again for West was not saying he is being overpaid now, it's just that you feel the team has a history of overpaying players and that with West they will overpay upon re-signing.

    Okay that statement and sentiment I can live with.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

    Mike Bresnahan ‏@Mike_Bresnahan

    Dwight Howard has been ejected twice in last three weeks after never being ejected before that. #trendingdown #Lakers

    The LOLakers continue.
    "Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

    "And David put his hand in the bag and took out a stone and slung it. And it struck the Philistine on the head and he fell to the ground. Amen. "
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    Default Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman21 View Post
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    Mike Bresnahan ‏@Mike_Bresnahan

    Dwight Howard has been ejected twice in last three weeks after never being ejected before that. #trendingdown #Lakers

    The LOLakers continue.
    Watch them come back and win the game with Howard in the locker room.

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    Default Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    So your statement about overpaying again for West was not saying he is being overpaid now, it's just that you feel the team has a history of overpaying players and that with West they will overpay upon re-signing.

    Okay that statement and sentiment I can live with.
    Yes that is what I'm trying to say, I believe that a team like Houston that loves to screw teams is going to come up with some crazy way to pay West leaving the Pacers with no other choice but to match and if that happens your guy Danny Granger is probably gone.

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    Default Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    David West is not overpay this year 10mil is fine for him, I expect him to get way more than that next year making him overpay.



    Danny has been overpay for few years now, he is in the same category of overpay players like Iguadola, Deng and Gay, maybe not overpay by much when healthy (3/4mil) but overpay still.



    9.7 and 8 for a guy that is making 14mil a year for the next 4 years? I love Roy but he is becoming one of the must overpay players in the league, hopefully he gets better, and like I said before I think it was the right decision to overpay for him.



    I love Hill but the Pacers made a mistake in not letting the market set the price, guys like Felton, DJ, Hinrich and others were free agents, I think he is getting overpay for like 3mil, similar players(Felton, Hinrich, Jarret Jack) are making way less.



    I compare Ian's salary and productivity with other backups and my problem with Ian is not that he is making 4mil a year but that he is making them for the next 4 years, those 4 millions are going to hurt the Pacers when is time to resign Danny, West, Paul George and Lance, I guess I'm not a fan of paying a backup that kind of money if that backup doesn't bring an specialty, Ian to me is not the difference between winning a championship or not.



    Why no sign Barbosa for vet minimum instead of signing this guy? no only he is making 3 millions but he is making them for the next 3 years, the guy needs to be in the D league.



    4mil is a lot for Tyler and I love the guy.



    Overpay but thanks god is only for one year.



    My way to find out if a player is overpay or not is to compare them to similar players in the NBA, call it looking at "the green grass" or whatever, like I said before I believe that a team can have no more than 4 overpay players, an small market team doesn't have the luxury to overpay players, at this moment on the Pacers the only players that are producing over their salaries and are underpay in a way are West(this year), Paul George(rookie salary), Lance(second round contract), after that you look at the whole team and is hard to find a player that is over performing to his salary.




    Note that I'm looking to have a good conversation so those that feel the need to make smart a** comments please stay away, thanks.
    I actually agree with you on everyone but Danny. When everyone within the same category (Danny, Deng, Iggy, Gay, Johnson) are getting paid roughly the same, then that's prob market value for those guys.


    Everyone else you're pretty spot on. Kudos

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  30. #2147

    Default Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

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    I had forgotten he was still out there. Outta sight outta mind.

    They need some reb'g.

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    Default Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Yes that is what I'm trying to say, I believe that a team like Houston that loves to screw teams is going to come up with some crazy way to pay West leaving the Pacers with no other choice but to match and if that happens your guy Danny Granger is probably gone.

    I understand your statement about DWest. Not sure I totally agree. I was thinking about this last night. I feel if the Pacers do well in the playoffs DWest will sign a reasonable contract to stay feeling the Pacers have a good chance to win a ring. If the Pacers don't do well in the playoffs, I can see DWest moving on for money and a better opportunity to win a ring.

    What happens if DWest leaves? That means a major void at PF. A good quality PF will have to be acquired, but at what cost? Not to mention, the need for a new b/u PF, or the re-signing of Hansbro. If Hansbro is re-signed, it will prpbably be at an overpaid price. This isn't a scenario I even like to think about!

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    Default Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    I understand your statement about DWest. Not sure I totally agree. I was thinking about this last night. I feel if the Pacers do well in the playoffs DWest will sign a reasonable contract to stay feeling the Pacers have a good chance to win a ring. If the Pacers don't do well in the playoffs, I can see DWest moving on for money and a better opportunity to win a ring.

    What happens if DWest leaves? That means a major void at PF. A good quality PF will have to be acquired, but at what cost? Not to mention, the need for a new b/u PF, or the re-signing of Hansbro. If Hansbro is re-signed, it will prpbably be at an overpaid price. This isn't a scenario I even like to think about!
    I doubt we give Hansbrough his qualifier ($4M) and we could renounce our Bird rights to him, which leaves us about $10M in pure cap space without West. Assuming West leaves, which I don't think or hope happens, then that $10M "might" be enough to get a guy like Milsap on a starting salary. Jefferson and Smith will likely be getting $12M + starting. We would still have several exceptions to resign Hansbrough or get a backup afterwards. Absorbing salary is another option, but I doubt you find a PF as effective as West on a salary dump. Boozer is also a band aid option as I'm certain he will get amnestied (Chicago is over the tax next year w/ 8 players).

    Hopefully West realizes the winning opportunity here and takes 9-10M per year over 2-3 years. Even at that salary, and assuming PG gets maxed and Lance is at 4-5M starting, it will be tough to keep Granger unless he is willing to take 8-9M and we can dump Green. Getting of out of Green's contract must be a priority. With the emergence of Lance, he's a 4th wing on this team and 3.5M is too much.

    I expect the LT to be about 73M as of 14/15 season.

    Starters
    Hibbert - 14.9
    PG - 13.5
    West - 9
    Granger - 8
    Hill - 8

    Main Bench
    Lance -5
    Mahinmi - 4
    Backup PF - 4
    Backup PG - 3

    Players 10-15 -4

    Total - 73.4M

    We have to get out of Green's contract though to even have a shot at keeping the core together. Another savings opportunity is if we can hit gold on a draft pick this year or next and they take a primary bench spot at backup PG or PF. Those picks will only make $1M per year.

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    Default Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    David West is not overpay this year 10mil is fine for him, I expect him to get way more than that next year making him overpay.

    Danny has been overpay for few years now, he is in the same category of overpay players like Iguadola, Deng and Gay, maybe not overpay by much when healthy (3/4mil) but overpay still.

    9.7 and 8 for a guy that is making 14mil a year for the next 4 years? I love Roy but he is becoming one of the must overpay players in the league, hopefully he gets better, and like I said before I think it was the right decision to overpay for him.

    I love Hill but the Pacers made a mistake in not letting the market set the price, guys like Felton, DJ, Hinrich and others were free agents, I think he is getting overpay for like 3mil, similar players(Felton, Hinrich, Jarret Jack) are making way less.

    I compare Ian's salary and productivity with other backups and my problem with Ian is not that he is making 4mil a year but that he is making them for the next 4 years, those 4 millions are going to hurt the Pacers when is time to resign Danny, West, Paul George and Lance, I guess I'm not a fan of paying a backup that kind of money if that backup doesn't bring an specialty, Ian to me is not the difference between winning a championship or not.

    [Gerald Green] Why no sign Barbosa for vet minimum instead of signing this guy? no only he is making 3 millions but he is making them for the next 3 years, the guy needs to be in the D league.

    4mil is a lot for Tyler and I love the guy.

    [DJ Augustin] Overpay but thanks god is only for one year.

    My way to find out if a player is overpay or not is to compare them to similar players in the NBA, call it looking at "the green grass" or whatever, like I said before I believe that a team can have no more than 4 overpay players, an small market team doesn't have the luxury to overpay players, at this moment on the Pacers the only players that are producing over their salaries and are underpay in a way are West(this year), Paul George(rookie salary), Lance(second round contract), after that you look at the whole team and is hard to find a player that is over performing to his salary.
    So in fact you think seven (7) Pacers are overpaid.

    For purposes of this conversation then David West appears to be off the table.

    1. You say Danny has been overpaid for 'a few years' then you name other players you feel are overpaid, but you don't give any indication as to why Granger is overpaid.

    a. For the record, for this season, Danny Granger is making $13,058,606, while Andre Iguodala is making $14,968,250, Luol Deng is making $13,305,000, and Rudy Gay is making $16,460,538.
    b. This means that for this season Granger is making $1,909,644 less than Andre Iguodala, $246,394 less than Luol Deng, and $3,401,932 less than Rudy Gay.

    2. Roy is certainly the easiest to describe as overpaid, I think. I would argue that while he is overpaid, it's not as much as people might believe considering the variables in play:

    a. Rarity of quality true centers
    b. Even more rare, true centers who make an all-star team
    c. Yet more rare, a true center matching a. and b. while also being seen as a two way player, not a one-sided specialist (offense or defense).
    d. Again, rare to have a true center who plays defense as well as Roy was playing at the time
    e. He had never been this awful offensively last season and it was not expected to happen, and in the meantime he may yet bounce back this season or next
    f. He was seen as a guy who worked as hard as anybody to improve his body and game, with the implication being that he might keep doing so heading into this season (which, defensively, he has improved)

    3. I agree that we should have let the market set Hill's price, and I also suspect the market would have offered him a bit less. However that doesn't necessarily mean he is currently overpaid. He may not be UNDERpaid, but if you are happy with his production at the price he is being paid in general, then it is sensible to suggest he may just be paid appropriately.

    a. The comparison to Kirk Hinrich, who is clearly statistically inferior, does not appear to hold any water.
    b. The comparison to Raymond Felton is statistically valid. However, Felton currently appears to be UNDERpaid because he was God awful the season prior to the offer of his contract. So I consider this to be an inappropriate comparison.
    c. The comparison to Jarrett Jack is also statistically valid. However, Jack is earning the 4th year of the $20m /4 year deal he was given by Toronto after playing a season in Indiana, and that contract reflects his value as of 2008-2009, which I think we can all agree was less than his current 2012-2013 perceived value, making him UNDERpaid, and so again as far as I'm concerned this is an inappropriate comparison.
    d. In general, someone else being UNDERpaid does not make our player automatically OVERpaid. He could, in fact, be getting paid quite appropriately. In the case of Hill, I would argue that is what is going on. It's very likely that the Pacers did miss an opportunity to pay him less, but that does not mean he is now overpaid.

    4. Ian Mahinmi, even you admit it's not a problem that he makes $4m a year, so I consider this point done and over with. Complaining about the length of the contract has nothing to do with whether or not he's being overpaid. It just means he's being paid fairly for longer than you would care to keep doing so.

    5. You say you feel that Gerald Green is the quality of a D League player, thus not worthy of being paid $3.5m per year to be in the NBA. Hard to disagree with this one. Thankfully it's still relatively tiny and as much as I dislike this signing I can't muster any fire or passion over it.

    6. Tyler is on a rookie scale contract and you like him as a player yet offer no specific reasons why he's overpaid. *shrug*

    7. You don't give any reasons for DJ Augustin being overpaid. Before his benching I would have automatically agreed with this. Now, I think it's more of an argument. Considering the fact that it's $3m and it won't matter either way in five months, I think we can mutually agree to let this one go as it is essentially inconsequential.

    So, from where I'm sitting, the meat of this entire topic with regards to allegedly overpaid players on the Indiana roster comes down to Danny Granger and Roy Hibbert. In each case, I'm skeptical of the argument for Granger but moderately in agreement at the moment so long as Roy continues to struggle this much offensively.

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