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Thread: We really did upgrade the bench

  1. #26
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    One thing I would warn people away from is focusing too much on scoring. Anyone can have those nights, even Lou had one of those nights. But the big 4 (Ian, DJ, GG and Young) were having positive impacts even without scoring, that's what really impressed me. They've all shown they can get you points, but they've all also shown poise under heat and a general ability to make clutch plays on either end.

    The top 9 guys on this roster can win 55 games this year, I really expect that.

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    I've been touting Mahinmi next to Roy since the party. I thought it was going to be our secret weapon in the playoffs, but it looks like maybe we will be nuking teams with it more often. That is a lot of beef up front and Mahinmi is so light on his feet he does not move like a 5.

    EDIT: Obviously West will still start, but let's go to the Heat series specifically the end of game 6 where Udonis Haslem exposed West's D in a big way, now imagine we could have put Mahinmi on him for some of those possessions? Would have gone a little differently I think. West and Mahinmi swaps on late game timeouts for O for D just seem so obvious and will be a big part of our strategy I think,
    It's funny how what we saw last night was exactly what we mentioned at the PD party. I likened the use of Ian instead of West late as your MLB closer coming in to get that final defensive shutdown and preserve the lead.

    But seeing Ian's offensive footwork and touch around the rim? So nice. His fouls per minute which hindered him at Dallas are still going to be a problem, but when he's able to be out there he's a huge win. He does give you a sense of Antonio when he comes in, that agile but strong big that gives you a bit of everything you need.

    Ian also frees up Roy to be an even more aggressive shot blocker. And he can replace Roy when needed and run just as well or better next to West. Great 3 man rotation through 2 spots.



    Young's defense last night was outstanding. There were a few trips where he was just relentless in bodying his man when he tried to dribble drive to the lane, turning him away and forcing the kickout/reset pass. When you had Green out there too and that kickout went to his man it just compounded the problems for Memphis. Young isn't the scorer Green is, but he's going to be great as 9th off the bench and defensive specialist. I liked DJones, but I prefer Sam just in general and I'm glad he's getting this chance with the team.


    Green - he's a much more all-around bench player than Barbosa or DJones, his hops give him a unique quality at the rim on either end, and yet he's showing a great scoring touch off the dribble and a sense of CONTROL AND CONFIDENCE that you need from the bench. SIXTH MAN CANDIDATE all the way. Very sincere. Seems obvious really. ESPN highlights keep him in people's heads and his solid box lines give him the stats to be in the running. Add in an elite team with a lot of wins, and bingo. Should be a great year for him.



    DJ - look, again he's just going to get crushed almost immediately by the other PGs first step. If you swing help defense in behind that then you can cover this up. After that he's giving you great positives in every other way. His ball control skills are the best we've seen since Tinsley. He's not just Collison quick and Hill poised, he's also showing a vast array of speed change and dribble change skills that keep defenders off balance much in the way a 95 mph fastball pitcher can do when he mixes in an 80 12 to 6 curve.

    He doesn't have any specific move that kills people, he just keeps on mixing in things until he's got the space he's looking for. And he has a great awareness of what space it is that he needs to find, and what to do with it when he gets it. He's showing a variety of passes to make the most of tight situations and maintains a poise right to the end of the shot clock. He's not putting up monster lines, but he's a big plus when he's out there. Only his defense prevents him from being a starter.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 10-21-2012 at 12:46 PM.

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  3. #27
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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Guys it's pre-season, man how fast the Tyler haters forgot that Tyler averaged 20ppg in pre-season last year? I like what I see but let's calm down.

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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Wow, think about this for a minute. We've got a legitimate offensive presence at every single position of our top 10 rotation players. Every single starter could score 20 in a given game without us being too surprised, and every single backup could score 10 without anyone batting an eye. I don't remember the last time I saw a team with that much distributed talent.
    I'm thinking every backup could 20 in a given game as well. In fact, they probably already have.
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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Great to hear a general consensus on this. I haven't had a chance to watch any of the preseason. But its great to hear. Unless George has completely evolved into a superstar, still have to give the nod to Miami. But if any of the big 3 goes down, this is a team well equipped to beat them.

    Lets hope Vogel spent a good deal of the offseason working on some Zone that can be used against Lebron

  6. #30

    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    i know this is preseason and all but, i do think we have made legit improvements with the bench. last year, foster barely played and although lou did his soldier's duty and did the best he could, his effort was overcome at times because he wasn't in possession of the needed tools- we got that now. green can help with bench scoring and i think even tyler might help as a 2nd or 3rd bench guy but if he doesn't, dj might pick it up for us in case.
    i feel better about this squad compared to last year's.
    of course that might change but hey- what can we do?

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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I'm thinking every backup could 20 in a given game as well. In fact, they probably already have.
    Well, there's "could go for 20" and there's "could go for 20." In the NBA, any scrub can get hot and go on a tear, but you'd be surprised to see them do it.

    If you picked up the box score in the morning and saw that Roy went for 20, would you be surprised? How about if West did? Granger? George? Hill? That would all seem pretty normal to me.

    Now if Mahinmi, Tyler, Stephenson, or Augustin went for 20, that would be pretty notable. But they could hit 10 consistently without me blinking an eye.
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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Well, there's "could go for 20" and there's "could go for 20." In the NBA, any scrub can get hot and go on a tear, but you'd be surprised to see them do it.

    If you picked up the box score in the morning and saw that Roy went for 20, would you be surprised? How about if West did? Granger? George? Hill? That would all seem pretty normal to me.

    Now if Mahinmi, Tyler, Stephenson, or Augustin went for 20, that would be pretty notable. But they could hit 10 consistently without me blinking an eye.
    If Green,Mahinmi,Augustin and Tyler keep playing like they have off the bench that will be a definite improvement over last year and may be the deepest team I can think the Pacers have ever had.
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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Well, there's "could go for 20" and there's "could go for 20." In the NBA, any scrub can get hot and go on a tear, but you'd be surprised to see them do it.

    If you picked up the box score in the morning and saw that Roy went for 20, would you be surprised? How about if West did? Granger? George? Hill? That would all seem pretty normal to me.

    Now if Mahinmi, Tyler, Stephenson, or Augustin went for 20, that would be pretty notable. But they could hit 10 consistently without me blinking an eye.
    If the preseason is any indication, there are some dips in talent at roster positions 6-10. Mahinmi, Green, and Augustin will all get their time... Young and Hansbrough will play based on circumstances and/or foul trouble.

    That portends a shorter rotation, and more playing time for 6-8. Which means that consistent mid teens could become more plausible.

  12. #34
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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Agree they look good...in preseason. It's a good sign, but I'm withholding judgment until I see them as a unit for a good chunk of meaningful games. I'm excited about the new guys, but not ready to render a serious assessment yet.
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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    The Green signing was truly great. Finally gives the Pacers more athleticism, which this team has been missing.

    Loved the Ian signing, just hated giving DC away for free. Just wish a pick was coming back to us at the very least.

    The DJ singing was good, since we traded away DC, and he's more of a distributor. Yes, his defense is subpar for what you'd want, but he's a backup, so I'm ok with that.

    Really happy that Lance is finally going to get a chance to showcase his talents. I do feel the ride will be a bit bumpy to begin, but I just hope Vogel will stick with Lance and let him figure things out on the court. If by the All-Star break there isn't any noticeable improvement, I'd be totally cool with Hill and Green splitting duty as the backup SG. We are a playoff team, so if Lance doesn't show steady improvements, I doubt he'll play much in the playoffs anyhow. Rooting for Lance to succeed though. Just another dimension he could off this playoff team that would be hard for other teams to stop.

    As for the guys looking for contracts. I still only see Young getting offered a deal. I could see a 3rd point getting a X-day contract, but not a full year. Probably just enough to ensure that Hill has completely recovered.

    Tyler seems like a preseason guy, but hearing that he's starting to mix things up a bit...well, I'll be optimistic. Hopefully that carries over to the season. However, I'm digging on the idea of Ian eventually taking Tyler's place and Plumlee playing the backup C in that Jeff Foster role (being fiesty, hustle, defense and rebounding). Ian and Hibbert together could be a pretty damn good dou next year if West leaves.

    While there are definite ??? on the bench, if Vogel gets the most out of these guys and gets them to play to their potential, this will be a very deep bench to add to one of the best starting 5 in the league. Still may not be enough for a championship, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Pacers did make it to the finals at least if these guys do play to their potential.
    Last edited by Sparhawk; 10-21-2012 at 10:00 PM.
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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    man how fast the Tyler haters forgot that Tyler averaged 20ppg in pre-season last year?
    I thought he stunk last year in pre-season. I forgot nothing. Just like I saw his 13 rebounds on SAT and realized that they came to nearly zero for the team due to how he got them (FT rebounds) or what happened when he did (blocked shot, charge, missed shots).

    Ian has a brilliant first step, good size, great instincts and excellent footwork at both ends. He's even working to stay back on some defense to avoid fouls (mixed results but you can see his awareness).


    Green has played confidently with the ball and not tried to be the show (ahem, Lance). His hops were always legit, he showed last year he has shots and his defensive effort has been focused and energetic.


    DJ has been a far more crafty ballhandler than DC, and he was the last 2 years in CHA. No one thinks his defense is okay.

    And Young had starter minutes for Memphis 2 years ago. If his shooting issues were really injury then it explains how he ended up here and it makes him a steal.


    NONE OF THAT is box score, that's on court actions and scouting what those items should mean for the team. I don't care if they beat Memphis, I care that Ian put 3 fouls on Gasol before he could get a sweat going, and all on good offensive moves. I care that Young and Green showed the ability to body guys up on dribble drives and force them across the lane instead of down it. I care that Ian has the physical stature to enforce his will on challenged rebounds.

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  16. #37
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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    The only way our bench has been upgraded is if we are able to play less of it.

    If we are able to use an 8 man rotation, we've gotten better off the bench. We weren't deep last year because we played 10 guys. It just meant we didn't have enough good players.

    If Mahinmi can regularly play with Hibbert, we'll be in much better shape. You have to hope that West, Hibbert, and Mahinmi can eat up all the 4/5 minutes. You assume that George/Granger/Green/Hill eat up all the wing minutes. You assume that Augustin can eat up the PG minutes whenever Hill slides down to the 2 or sits. If you can get by with those 8, our bench is in decent shape.

    If Young and Hansbrough play signifcant minutes (or Stephenson and Plumlee, though there is no reason to think they'll contribute when we're healthy in any way, shape, or form), we're in no better shape than we were last season.
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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    The only way our bench has been upgraded is if we are able to play less of it.

    If we are able to use an 8 man rotation, we've gotten better off the bench. We weren't deep last year because we played 10 guys. It just meant we didn't have enough good players.

    If Mahinmi can regularly play with Hibbert, we'll be in much better shape. You have to hope that West, Hibbert, and Mahinmi can eat up all the 4/5 minutes. You assume that George/Granger/Green/Hill eat up all the wing minutes. You assume that Augustin can eat up the PG minutes whenever Hill slides down to the 2 or sits. If you can get by with those 8, our bench is in decent shape.

    If Young and Hansbrough play signifcant minutes (or Stephenson and Plumlee, though there is no reason to think they'll contribute when we're healthy in any way, shape, or form), we're in no better shape than we were last season.
    What an interesting, and totally off-base analysis. Frank didn't play a 10 man rotation because we lacked talent. He thought we had more than we did. His strategy was to spread minutes and stay fresh. We are returning the same starting five, and Frank has already said their minutes will increase.

    Saying the only way we can upgrade the bench is by using it less makes zero sense.
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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by pizza guy View Post
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    What an interesting, and totally off-base analysis. Frank didn't play a 10 man rotation because we lacked talent. He thought we had more than we did. His strategy was to spread minutes and stay fresh. We are returning the same starting five, and Frank has already said their minutes will increase.

    Saying the only way we can upgrade the bench is by using it less makes zero sense.
    Totally agree with this rebuttal. Find me a team that uses an 8-man rotation for the entire season. Even teams with 3 superstars sit them down occasionally.

    Now, playoffs, perhaps, but the ability for players other than the super guys to go 40+ minutes depends a LOT on how much wear-and-tear they were able to avoid during the season because a bench player could step in and handle the spot against general (as opposed to superstar) opposition.
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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Totally agree with this rebuttal. Find me a team that uses an 8-man rotation for the entire season. Even teams with 3 superstars sit them down occasionally.

    Now, playoffs, perhaps, but the ability for players other than the super guys to go 40+ minutes depends a LOT on how much wear-and-tear they were able to avoid during the season because a bench player could step in and handle the spot against general (as opposed to superstar) opposition.
    You don't need or want any of the Pacers players to play 40+. But you need 8 guys you can count on. You don't want to have to play heavy minutes with guys like Hansbrough or Amundson. You're counting on one guy to take both of their minutes. You don't want to have to play heavy minutes with guys like Barabosa and Dahntay. You're counting on Gerald Green to take both of their minutes. The starting 5 plays roughly the same amount.

    There are 48 minutes at the point, 96 minutes on the wing, and 96 minutes for your bigs. Instead of regularly dividing that up among 10 guys with hockey style substitutions, you hope you've got three guys on your bench that are good enough that you can intermingle them with the starters for long stretches without major drop offs. Obviously, we didn't have that last year. We hope we do this year.

    You have to hope that Augustin is good enough to give you 20 minutes a night which allows Hill to play 28 at the point and a few on the wing.

    You have to hope that Green is good enough to give you 25-30 minutes a night on the wing. You still get your 30-35 from George and Granger and spot wing minutes from Hill.

    You have to hope that Mahinmi is both good enought and versatile enough to spell both West and Hibbert so they can play in the low 30's every night.

    If you can get that, your bench is better. And regardless of how deep you think you are, you should always have at least two starters on the floor during meaningful minutes.
    Last edited by BRushWithDeath; 10-22-2012 at 03:48 PM.
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  24. #41
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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Totally agree with this rebuttal. Find me a team that uses an 8-man rotation for the entire season. Even teams with 3 superstars sit them down occasionally.

    Now, playoffs, perhaps, but the ability for players other than the super guys to go 40+ minutes depends a LOT on how much wear-and-tear they were able to avoid during the season because a bench player could step in and handle the spot against general (as opposed to superstar) opposition.
    The Pacers players (other than West and Danny) are young enough to play extended minutes, is not like we are talking about San Antonio or Boston.

    I hope Vogel goes not more than 8/9 players during the playoffs.

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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    I think most of us that are saying the bench got better are hoping for the most part that DJ, Green, and Mahinmi eat all the bench minutes. Young maybe gets 4 minutes a game in certain situations.

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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Seriously, how can Donnie not bring in the Antonio and/or Dale Davis to work with Mahinmi and the rest of the frontcourt?
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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Seriously, how can Donnie not bring in the Antonio and/or Dale Davis to work with Mahinmi and the rest of the frontcourt?
    Because they were not really that good. Dale had no offensive game at all and Antonio was a marginal player.... He wasn't bad but he certainly wasn't great.

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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    Because they were not really that good. Dale had no offensive game at all and Antonio was a marginal player.... He wasn't bad but he certainly wasn't great.
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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    Because they were not really that good. Dale had no offensive game at all and Antonio was a marginal player.... He wasn't bad but he certainly wasn't great.
    ok now he hasn't been banned yet, but talking bad about Dale Davis?! This is surely a bannable offense.

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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Before we get too high, let's remember that Ian has foul problems, DJ's Matador defense, Tyler's TOs and lack of passing. Not sure about Green's defense either.

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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    Because they were not really that good. Dale had no offensive game at all and Antonio was a marginal player.... He wasn't bad but he certainly wasn't great.
    If this isn't trolling on a Pacers board.... WTF is?
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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    Because they were not really that good. Dale had no offensive game at all and Antonio was a marginal player.... He wasn't bad but he certainly wasn't great.
    At least you are consistent, OlBlu it again - laughably wrong. The exceptional contributions Dale and Antonio Davis made to the toughness, interior defense, rebounding and offense of the Pacers were obvious. They aren't players you'd typically define primarily by their stats and accolades, yet Dale averaged double figures five times, which I wouldn't call "no offensive game at all," and both Dale and Antonio were named once to the NBA All-Star team. Dale is just 41 rebounds shy of being in the top 50 in NBA history in that category.
    Last edited by Freddie fan; 10-22-2012 at 05:07 PM.

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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    Because they were not really that good. Dale had no offensive game at all and Antonio was a marginal player.... He wasn't bad but he certainly wasn't great.
    Now is Peck's chance....do it for humanity!

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    By Los Angeles in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 09-04-2005, 01:51 PM

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