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Thread: We really did upgrade the bench

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    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default We really did upgrade the bench

    I've got to say, I'm impressed with our offseason acquisitions.

    Mahinmi is way better than I expected, and he seems to be getting along well with his teammates. I really (REALLY) like that he's capable of playing the 4 next to Roy. Very Antonio-Davis-esque. Great signing.

    Tyler had a solid game, and he's diversified his moves this offseason. That's good news for a couple reasons. Not only does it make him harder to guard right now, but it also means he's actually able to add things to his game (which we hadn't seen so far).

    Green? Amazing signing. Love that he's locked up for three years.

    Stephenson's game has significantly improved. His shot looks better, he's not nearly so impetuous, and he's clearly growing up. The big downside for him right now is that he looks significantly better running the point than he does the backup 2.

    Augustin didn't look great out there, but he was a backup playing with the starters. I think he'll be more than adequate for our backup PG minutes.



    Every backup position looks better than it did last year. If our starters can just be consistent (with maybe a little development by Paul George) and everybody stays healthy, this is gonna be a really fun year.
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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    I thought more highly of Darren Collison and Dahntay Jones than many, but I gotta agree with you here Anthem. Mahinmi and Green are great additions and I'm interested to see what Hansbrough and Stephenson can contribute to the goon squad. I'm not sold on D.J. Augustin yet (his defense has been poor and his play-making has yet to live up to the training camp hype), but he has looked solid from time to time on the offensive end.

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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
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    I thought more highly of Darren Collison and Dahntay Jones than many
    Me too. Collison/Augustin was the one place that we didn't necessarily upgrade the talent, but I think we did upgrade the fit. Our PG is going to be out there with all scorers, what we need in that role is a pure distributor.

    I was sad to see Inferno go as well, but he's no Gerald Green. It was nice to have a pesky defender to bring off the deep bench, but I think Sam Young could fill that role for us.
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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Our PG is going to be out there with all scorers
    Wow, think about this for a minute. We've got a legitimate offensive presence at every single position of our top 10 rotation players. Every single starter could score 20 in a given game without us being too surprised, and every single backup could score 10 without anyone batting an eye. I don't remember the last time I saw a team with that much distributed talent.
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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Wow, think about this for a minute. We've got a legitimate offensive presence at every single position of our top 10 rotation players. Every single starter could score 20 in a given game without us being too surprised, and every single backup could score 10 without anyone batting an eye. I don't remember the last time I saw a team with that much distributed talent.
    The 2004 Pacers team was the best Pacers teams in a very long time. They are extremely better than the 2000 Pacers that went to the finals, and the current team would be embarassed by that squad. If it wasn't for the brawl that team would of gotten us three championships, and we would of been able to persuade Reggie to play longer.

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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by Future_NBA_Player View Post
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    The 2004 Pacers team was the best Pacers teams in a very long time. They are extremely better than the 2000 Pacers that went to the finals, and the current team would be embarassed by that squad. If it wasn't for the brawl that team would of gotten us three championships, and we would of been able to persuade Reggie to play longer.
    No. At the time I agreed with you, but since then my feelings have changed. If it wasn't for the brawl, there would have been another outbreak of craziness later in the year. There's no way Ron would have made it through the season.

    I liked Jermaine a lot (I sometimes feel like the only guy one the board who can say that) but right now I'd take Roy Hibbert over 2004 Jermaine. JO's body had already started to break down from carrying too much weight and from playing 3 or 4 summers in a row.
    Last edited by Anthem; 10-20-2012 at 11:07 PM.
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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    I think Roy will have a much more consistent career than J.O, but I don't think that he would of been able to guard him because he was able to step out and hit the mid range shot at a decent level. I also think that J.O had a swagger about him that I dont think Roy could of matched. Roy is tuff, but J.O was very physical, just ask Shaq and Yao. ( I love Roy also) Yes Artest would of done something eventually, I agree. I blame Ron completley. The others were just thugs, but Ron was crazy.
    Last edited by Future_NBA_Player; 10-20-2012 at 10:11 PM.

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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    No. At the time I agreed with you, but since then my feelings have changed. If it wasn't for the brawl, there would have been another outbreak of craziness later in the year. There's no way Roy would have made it through the season.

    I liked Jermaine a lot (I sometimes feel like the only guy one the board who can say that) but right now I'd take Roy Hibbert over 2004 Jermaine. JO's body had already started to break down from carrying too much weight and from playing 3 or 4 summers in a row.
    Obviously, you meant to say Ron instead of Roy wouldn't have made it through that season, and you're absolutely right. The 04 team was a beast from a talent perspective, but I don't like hearing that they could have beaten the 2000 team. That team had plenty of talent and real chemistry and experience. They embodied their coach, and they deserve to be recognized as the best NBA Pacers team ever.

    With that off my chest, I have not seen a single preseason game yet, so I am just getting my impressions from PD. After this post, and a few others, I have to say I am jacked for this season. I think we have definitely improved the depth of this team, and I have a lot of faith in Vogel to improve the game planning, substitutions and offense.

    Can't wait for the season.
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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Me too. Collison/Augustin was the one place that we didn't necessarily upgrade the talent, but I think we did upgrade the fit. Our PG is going to be out there with all scorers, what we need in that role is a pure distributor.

    I was sad to see Inferno go as well, but he's no Gerald Green. It was nice to have a pesky defender to bring off the deep bench, but I think Sam Young could fill that role for us.
    I think, though, Collison was a better fit for the second unit last season. That unit didn't have any scorers besides him in the playoffs. (And Barbosa was on and off in the regular season too. ) He had a cold Barbosa, a colder Tyler, Lou and Dahntay. Not a lot of scoring..

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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Ian is a MANBEAST.
    "Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by pizza guy View Post
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    Obviously, you meant to say Ron instead of Roy wouldn't have made it through that season, and you're absolutely right. The 04 team was a beast from a talent perspective, but I don't like hearing that they could have beaten the 2000 team. That team had plenty of talent and real chemistry and experience. They embodied their coach, and they deserve to be recognized as the best NBA Pacers team ever.

    With that off my chest, I have not seen a single preseason game yet, so I am just getting my impressions from PD. After this post, and a few others, I have to say I am jacked for this season. I think we have definitely improved the depth of this team, and I have a lot of faith in Vogel to improve the game planning, substitutions and offends.

    Can't wait for the season.
    Our 97-98 team would have murdered our 2000 team. That, not the finals team or 2003-2004 was the best Pacers team in the NBA era. Had we held on a few minutes longer vs. MJ I have no doubt we have a Championship banner hanging from the rafters right now.


    As for the bench, what does everyone think about the possibility of Mahinmi being the first big off the bench for both the 4 and 5 position? If Roy plays 31/32 minutes, and West plays 30-32 minutes that leaves 32-35 minutes for backups, if Ian plays 16/17 minutes backing up Roy, Vogel could distribute the minutes so that he gets 7-8 minutes at PF alongside Roy each night ensuring him at least 24 ish minutes per night with Tyler getting whatever is leftover at PF for 10 minutes a night or whatever. The Roy Mahinmi twin towers lineup offers defensive possibilities that West/Hibbert or Hans/ Hibbert do not, and if Ian is as skilled as he appears to be than he needs to be getting minutes regardless of Tyler Hansbrough except on nights where Tyler is hot.

    Personally i'm all for the primarily 3 man big guy rotation with Tyler as a spot player, I like having a defender in the game as often as possible.

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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    I've got to say, I'm impressed with our offseason acquisitions.

    Mahinmi is way better than I expected, and he seems to be getting along well with his teammates. I really (REALLY) like that he's capable of playing the 4 next to Roy. Very Antonio-Davis-esque. Great signing.

    Tyler had a solid game, and he's diversified his moves this offseason. That's good news for a couple reasons. Not only does it make him harder to guard right now, but it also means he's actually able to add things to his game (which we hadn't seen so far).

    Green? Amazing signing. Love that he's locked up for three years.

    Stephenson's game has significantly improved. His shot looks better, he's not nearly so impetuous, and he's clearly growing up. The big downside for him right now is that he looks significantly better running the point than he does the backup 2.

    Augustin didn't look great out there, but he was a backup playing with the starters. I think he'll be more than adequate for our backup PG minutes.



    Every backup position looks better than it did last year. If our starters can just be consistent (with maybe a little development by Paul George) and everybody stays healthy, this is gonna be a really fun year.
    If are starters are consistent? How soon people forget or don't realize our starters were the best 5 man combo stats wise last year. Like I said earlier our only issue was backup bigs. If we have a Ian level C defender in the Miami series we beat them. Also trading Rush hurt as we didn't have a good replacement at all and that's why the bench was historically bad in that series. That is really the only hole now a shooter who also is a lockdown defender and can guard 1s. That and Luis Scola

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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    I've been touting Mahinmi next to Roy since the party. I thought it was going to be our secret weapon in the playoffs, but it looks like maybe we will be nuking teams with it more often. That is a lot of beef up front and Mahinmi is so light on his feet he does not move like a 5.

    EDIT: Obviously West will still start, but let's go to the Heat series specifically the end of game 6 where Udonis Haslem exposed West's D in a big way, now imagine we could have put Mahinmi on him for some of those possessions? Would have gone a little differently I think. West and Mahinmi swaps on late game timeouts for O for D just seem so obvious and will be a big part of our strategy I think,

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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    People round these parts will recall that I was a big Jeff Foster fan. One of the reasons was that he was offensive rebounding personified. When he retired, I wondered how we would keep getting those offensive boards. Get the ORBs and you set yourself up for more second-chance points.

    Well, if you look at most of the preseason games, the bench has really done quite well in this area. One game it's Tyler, the next Ian, the next Pendergraph or PG. I won't say that we have replaced all of Jeff's intangibles, but I think the offensive rebounding is in good hands, especially if Roy steps up his game and stays on the court as much or more as he did last season. Also love Ian playing with Roy.

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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    What's Ian listed at? 6'11/250 or so? That dude is nimble, especially laterally, it's really impressive. We've needed a big as mobile as him since...forever really. He also seems really vocal on the floor, I love that. It's a really important trait that gets overlooked far too often.

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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    No. At the time I agreed with you, but since then my feelings have changed. If it wasn't for the brawl, there would have been another outbreak of craziness later in the year. There's no way Ron would have made it through the season.

    I liked Jermaine a lot (I sometimes feel like the only guy one the board who can say that) but right now I'd take Roy Hibbert over 2004 Jermaine. JO's body had already started to break down from carrying too much weight and from playing 3 or 4 summers in a row.
    i agree with this. brawl or not- that squad couldn't keep it together. the talent was there for some rings however, too many players who played critical roles with too much selfish attitudes. too many guys who pursued individual wants over the well-being of the team (primarily jo, tins, ron and jackson)

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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    I think, though, Collison was a better fit for the second unit last season. That unit didn't have any scorers besides him in the playoffs. (And Barbosa was on and off in the regular season too. ) He had a cold Barbosa, a colder Tyler, Lou and Dahntay. Not a lot of scoring..
    Absolutely. Putting Augustin on last year's squad wouldn't have been an improvement. But he's a better fit this year.
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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    If are starters are consistent? How soon people forget or don't realize
    Of course I realized it. That's my point. Read "If the starters can be consistent..." as "If the starters can do this year what they did last year..."
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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by Future_NBA_Player View Post
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    The 2004 Pacers team was the best Pacers teams in a very long time. They are extremely better than the 2000 Pacers that went to the finals, and the current team would be embarassed by that squad. If it wasn't for the brawl that team would of gotten us three championships, and we would of been able to persuade Reggie to play longer.
    They were not better than the 2000 Pacers. The 2000 Pacers unfortunately had to go up against (arguably) the most dominant center ever when he was in the best season of his entire 19 year career. Shaq was an absolute freak back in 2000 and there was simply no way of stopping him. That 00 Pacer team would have won the title in a lot of years. Also, it was basically the same team that took Jordan's Bulls to 7 games in 1998. The core of the team (Reggie, Dale, Smits, Jackson) went to the Conference Finals five times. The JO/Artest Pacers went to the conference finals once, but imploded in every other season aside from that. They don't deserved to be mentioned with the 2000 Pacers.

    Good stuff about the bench, Anthem. I didn't get a chance to watch the game last night, but I like what I'm hearing.

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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Hats off to Walsh...he put together a solid bench without spendioo much $$
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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Have not seen any of the games, but from the stat lines from the past games I have seen that Green and Ian have been very valuable additions. With the Green addition the lower amount of minutes from DG won't hurt us as much.
    Why so SERIOUS

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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    I like the new additions except Augustine. His defense is so bad, it is really going to hurt the 2nd unit. I think this is going to be a recurring issue this season.

    I am really impressed by Green and Mahinmi. Mahinmi made an elite move on the baseline vs Gasol last night that was a real eye opener on how skilled he is/can be.

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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    I've got to say, I'm impressed with our offseason acquisitions.

    Mahinmi is way better than I expected, and he seems to be getting along well with his teammates. I really (REALLY) like that he's capable of playing the 4 next to Roy. Very Antonio-Davis-esque. Great signing.

    Tyler had a solid game, and he's diversified his moves this offseason. That's good news for a couple reasons. Not only does it make him harder to guard right now, but it also means he's actually able to add things to his game (which we hadn't seen so far).

    Green? Amazing signing. Love that he's locked up for three years.

    Stephenson's game has significantly improved. His shot looks better, he's not nearly so impetuous, and he's clearly growing up. The big downside for him right now is that he looks significantly better running the point than he does the backup 2.

    Augustin didn't look great out there, but he was a backup playing with the starters. I think he'll be more than adequate for our backup PG minutes.



    Every backup position looks better than it did last year. If our starters can just be consistent (with maybe a little development by Paul George) and everybody stays healthy, this is gonna be a really fun year.
    Yes, the bench is improved but not by a big margin. The Pacers did nothing with the starters and for that reason, I think they will slip just a little bit this season unless PG breaks out and plays out of his mind. The Pacers are built for the regular season and not the playoffs again and it will be that way until and if they can add a stud to the staring lineup. When the superstars, start playing extended minutes in the playoffs, the Pacers will quickly exit stage left....... 48-34 fourth or fifth in the East....

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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    If are starters are consistent? How soon people forget or don't realize our starters were the best 5 man combo stats wise last year. Like I said earlier our only issue was backup bigs. If we have a Ian level C defender in the Miami series we beat them. Also trading Rush hurt as we didn't have a good replacement at all and that's why the bench was historically bad in that series. That is really the only hole now a shooter who also is a lockdown defender and can guard 1s. That and Luis Scola
    Stats can be made to show about anything. This starting group will never be able to contend for a championship against teams with superstars. The bench will be better this year but the starters won't be unless PG becomes a superstar (and he won't).

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    Default Re: We really did upgrade the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    Stats can be made to show about anything. This starting group will never be able to contend for a championship against teams with superstars. The bench will be better this year but the starters won't be unless PG becomes a superstar (and he won't).
    against the heat, the pacers ran into trouble when vogel went with the bench. when he went to the total bench lineup, THAT is when we saw 9-12 point leads quickly evaporate to a tied game and even falling behind. it happened time and again. unfortunately frank didn't seem to figure this out and kept with it even after that method proved to be ineffective.
    i still think miami wins that series even if he doesn't go from all starters to all bench but it would have been closer. this year, our bench looks substantially better with a real scorer in green and a real center in mahinmi. those are both 2 things we really didn't have last season.

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