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Thread: Keeping David West

  1. #151
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    Default Re: Keeping David West

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Ask me if I care : I remember the time I was DC's hater and I got similar comments as this one, can you remind me who was right again? ...........

    I've been wondering when you would bring this up. Because you were always knocking down DC and pumping up Augustin, but now that Augustin is here and DC is gone, I've noticed you've gone back to saying that you don't think Augustin is much of an improvement if at all over DC

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    Default Re: Keeping David West

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    I've been wondering when you would bring this up. Because you were always knocking down DC and pumping up Augustin, but now that Augustin is here and DC is gone, I've noticed you've gone back to saying that you don't think Augustin is much of an improvement if at all over DC
    There is not doubt that Augustin is better, better passer and better "floor general", I just don't think that as backup his impact is going to be that great, 15mpg from him or DC is not that different to me, when I was pumping up Augustin I was talking about him replacing DC as the starter not as the backup.

  3. #153
    billbradley
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    Default Re: Keeping David West

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    There is not doubt that Augustin is better, better passer and better "floor general", I just don't think that as backup his impact is going to be that great, 15mpg from him or DC is not that different to me, when I was pumping up Augustin I was talking about him replacing DC as the starter not as the backup.
    Sorry, that doesn't make any sense. DC was playing closer to 20 minutes a game as a backup. How can you say that a point guard can't have an impact playing 20 MPG?

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  5. #154
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    Default Re: Keeping David West

    Quote Originally Posted by billbradley View Post
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    Sorry, that doesn't make any sense. DC was playing closer to 20 minutes a game as a backup. How can you say that a point guard can't have an impact playing 20 MPG?
    Read it again.

    I just don't think that as backup his impact is going to be that great,
    I didn't say that "he can't have an impact", I said that "as a backup I don't think his impact is going to be that great" big difference.

    Hill got pay this season I expect his minutes to go up, I also expect him to finish games, last season Frank was playing whoever was playing well, this season I expect it to be different, Hill has the long term contract and DJ is a rental.

  6. #155
    billbradley
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    Default Re: Keeping David West

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Read it again. I didn't say that "he can't have an impact", I said that "as a backup I don't think his impact is going to be that great" big difference.
    I read it, it just doesn't make sense to say "it's not that different" to have a backup that is better than who your starter was most of the year. The point is, 20 minutes is a long time to claim that who plays is "not that different."

    Hill got pay this season I expect his minutes to go up, I also expect him to finish games, last season Frank was playing whoever was playing well, this season I expect it to be different, Hill has the long term contract and DJ is a rental.
    Vogel will play the best player for the team and we could also see both Hill and Augustine close games as well.

  7. #156
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    Default Re: Keeping David West

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I used PPG's RPG's and his DEFENSE to compare him to other power forwards and he is on the bottom.
    Holy crap, you're STILL trying to say 33 out of 195 is "the bottom"? Then maybe you should use minutes per game to decide where West should be on those lists.

    Here's a hint, he's even more bottomer in minutes per game than he is in points, or rebounds.

    When someone is on a list higher in PPG, and RPG than he is in MPG with the same list of people, I'd say he's probably producing fairly well. Just me, of course.

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    Default Re: Keeping David West

    Quote Originally Posted by xBulletproof View Post
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    Holy crap, you're STILL trying to say 33 out of 195 is "the bottom"? Then maybe you should use minutes per game to decide where West should be on those lists.

    Here's a hint, he's even more bottomer in minutes per game than he is in points, or rebounds.

    When someone is on a list higher in PPG, and RPG than he is in MPG with the same list of people, I'd say he's probably producing fairly well. Just me, of course.
    I see that you don't understand, I mean bottom of the starting power forwards in the league not the bottom of every power forward in the league, even the list I posted proves this, I said he is bottom 7 in starting power forwards.

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    Default Re: Keeping David West

    Quote Originally Posted by billbradley View Post
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    I read it, it just doesn't make sense to say "it's not that different" to have a backup that is better than who your starter was most of the year. The point is, 20 minutes is a long time to claim that who plays is "not that different."



    Vogel will play the best player for the team and we could also see both Hill and Augustine close games as well.
    I said that I don't think he is that big of an upgrade, that means that I think he is an upgrade but I don't think the difference is going to win or lose the Pacers games, for example I expect DJ to average probably 2 or 3 more points per game and few more assists but again I don't expect that to win the Pacers any games.

    My comments also prove what I always said, that I never thought DC was garbage and I was never a DC hater by the way.
    Last edited by vnzla81; 10-11-2012 at 06:41 PM.

  10. #159
    billbradley
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    Default Re: Keeping David West

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I said that I don't think he is that big of an upgrade, that means that I think he is an upgrade but I don't think the difference is going to win or lose the Pacers games, for example I expect DJ to average probably 2 or 3 more points per game and few more assists but again I don't expect that to win the Pacers any games.

    My comments also prove what I always said, that I never thought DC was garbage and I was never a DC hater by the way.
    It still doesn't make sense to say switching the same talents for 28 minutes will have an impact, but the same switch for 18 minutes "is not that different."

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  12. #160

    Default Re: Keeping David West

    Quote Originally Posted by daschysta View Post
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    I would argue his leadership has been huge, you need to do no more than listen to his teammates talk about how big it has been to understand where that idea comes from.
    Oftentimes, the idea of leadership seems possibly overstated because it is intangible and hard to evaluate. But I would argue that in West's case, in judging by listening to his teammates and coaches, and watching games, his leadership was very evident on the court in areas such as:

    • Valuing possessions and taking better shots (having fewer of the wild, bad shots of recent seasons); running the offense and passing the ball, not standing around too much and chucking up a long, contested shot.
    • Having poise and confidence to close out games at the end and not fall apart as we saw so often in previous seasons, also making big shots in the final seconds of games;
    • Not getting too high or losing focus after a big win and then losing the next game with a sub-par effort against a lesser opponent as we saw so often in previous seasons - developing more consistency in effort from game to game.


    These are critical areas of improvement where I believe West had a big influence (and maybe others can think of more) that made a major difference in the team's record, but you won't find them looking at scoring and rebounding averages.

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  14. #161
    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping David West

    Absolutely agree with you there, Freddie.

    Maybe the most notable moment in that regard was seconds after we won Game 2 vs the Miami HEAT and he ushered everybody quickly off the court and told everyone not to get too high after just one win.
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  16. #162
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    Default Re: Keeping David West

    Quote Originally Posted by billbradley View Post
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    It still doesn't make sense to say switching the same talents for 28 minutes will have an impact, but the same switch for 18 minutes "is not that different."
    Bench players are different, they don't have the same freedom and stop repeating that I'm saying "is not that different", I said "is not that BIG of a difference", it's like playing Roy for 18minutes instead of 28min, do you think his impact in the game is the same? No!.

    Augustin as an starter could average 14 and 7 in 30+ minutes, I expect him to average like 8/9ppg and 4apg while playing less than 20minutes, in other words "NO THE SAME IMPACT IN THE GAME".

  17. #163
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    Default Re: Keeping David West

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Bench players are different, they don't have the same freedom and stop repeating that I'm saying "is not that different", I said "is not that BIG of a difference",
    No, you said exactly what I quoted you as saying and that is why you don't make sense...

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    There is not doubt that Augustin is better, better passer and better "floor general", I just don't think that as backup his impact is going to be that great, 15mpg from him or DC is not that different to me, when I was pumping up Augustin I was talking about him replacing DC as the starter not as the backup.
    Augustin as an starter could average 14 and 7 in 30+ minutes, I expect him to average like 8/9ppg and 4apg while playing less than 20minutes, in other words "NO THE SAME IMPACT IN THE GAME".
    The point is, upgrading your backup PG when you have a starting combo at PG will make a difference.
    Last edited by billbradley; 10-12-2012 at 10:01 AM.

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  19. #164
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeping David West

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    ... I don't think the difference is going to win or lose the Pacers games, for example I expect DJ to average probably 2 or 3 more points per game and few more assists but again I don't expect that to win the Pacers any games.
    If we take those assists as being scores the Pacers would not have had, we're talking a differential of 8-9 points total (if "a few" assists is 3). Unless you are thinking that the assisted baskets will replace baskets by those members of the bench who create their own shots (that would be who?), that's enough to put us into a win column on a number of games compared to DC.

    Now, how many of those points will be offset by defensive flaws, but I submit that DC's inability to get through a screen was nearly as egregious as any flaws DJ might have. After watching DJ tonight I might change my mind, but at this point that's where I am in this debate.
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