But you do hear all coaches talking about their teams playing style... We are just the only ones claiming smashmouth...
And I think you are taking the wrong impression from the term smashmouth in general... Smashmouth is not literally "We're gonna smash your mouths!"... Ex. Rodman
It's just means we're gonna be physical, score inside (needs improvement), Rebound, play tough D, and above all else... HUSTLE!.. Ex. Roy
Last edited by J7F; 10-05-2012 at 10:10 PM.
Nothing in life worth having comes easy.
I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.
Judge something as it is presented, defined and/or intended.
To arbitrarily redefine the term in this context is pointless because then you're not talking about reality anymore.
Do you remember playing pick-up ball as a kid? Sometimes you played against dirty players and just wanted to understandably pop them in the mouth. But other times, you played against guys that were just plain tough. They were masters of gamesmanship. They bellied up to you and made you work for everything. They knew when to give you that little nudge before going up for the rebound or just before that pass was coming to you into the post. You hated playing against them and probably felt like popping them too before the day was done. But not because they played dirty. They were just tough-minded tough-nosed physical players who, more often than not, could make you have to work much harder than you really wanted to work. In short, they could usually impose their will on you.
That is really what Vogel means by "smash mouth". That's a team that is physically on the edge, but within the rules, that is capable of imposing it's will on the opposition.
Smash mouth means nothing different today than it did 20 years ago. The only thing that is different are the rules of the game that happen to define it's limits.
Just because I start a conversation calling a peach an apple doesn't mean that everyone is obligated to follow my definition. Yes this is one of those cases of being absurd to demonstrate absurdity that you don't like but play along.
Frank Vogel, as much as I love him, does not get to be the final arbiter of the definition of Smash mouth basketball. That is up to anyone’s personal interpretation.
Had Frank just said "we're going to play inside out, look to take good shots and play hard every play" then your point would be more valid, but he chose to give it a name. It just so happens that it is a name that has been used in the past in several different ways and in several different sports.
BTW I want to say again, I love the phrase smash mouth basketball & I have zero problem with them using it as long as they are actually doing it. By Vnzla's standard, admittedly they are not, but this is the newer kinder gentler NBA so I think by today's standards they probably are.
So then just say he's misusing the phrase.
And even in this case, just say, "He's misusing the phrase, but going by his own wacky definition he's right and that's what they're doing."
Why can't people be upset about it if they want to be?
Once again making sure we are clear here, I am NOT upset with his use of the phrase or his definition. I'm totally with you & him on this.
But if people want to be upset about it, they can be.
However to be fair, you also would be entitled to being upset about them being upset (or something like that)
What is it about me that suddenly makes you such an active and argumentative poster all of a sudden? ***** Christ!
That said, the term is definitely teetering on being overused. It's becoming empty rhetoric, and that's what getting annoying.
More to the point of the OP -- football pads during practice to work on setting good, hard screens as a direct result of something Coach V noted during the playoffs as a weakness? Yes, please. This is a great bit of coaching, and it's very encouraging to me. We may be returning the same starting five, but it doesn't mean we're content with how we played.
BLUE COLLAR GOLD SWAGGER
This.That said, the term is definitely teetering on being overused. It's becoming empty rhetoric, and that's what getting annoying.
This thread has done more to make the phrase annoying than anything Frank Vogel, the media, other teams, other players, or anything else has said or done.
You can't get champagne from a garden hose.
When Danny Granger got up into Lebrons face, it wasnt just about intimidating. It was also about not accepting whats become acceptable. Which is, King James and crew running rough shot on everyone. It was about the lack of respect our team and city as a whole continues to get, especially with this basketball team, despite having a great team and a great year last season. It was about just letting the world know that we WILL matter, whether you like it or not. It was about " Yah, you are the heavy favorites to win the title. You are the best player in the NBA. We are the small town market who's suppose to get stomped. We are so insignificant to the most basketball aficionados and experts, that we were'nt even on national television, despite winning 42 of 62 games, but WE WILL MATTER. WE WILL HAVE YOUR RESPECT. "
Incase you havent notices, Lebron, Wade, Bosh...They are suppose to win the next few titles. In everyone's minds, we dont exisist in there world. We dont matter. Smashmouth isnt just about throwing shoulders. It's about making people give a damn when they step into our building. When they step on the same court. These teams know they have more talent. They know they're suppose to win. However, they wont know whether they'll be long for a season, or series after they step off the court with us. Because we're going to hustle for every ball, we're gunna bang. We wont back down. Thats smashmouth. It's not about throwing people around and hurting people. It's simply the only way, short of having 3 superstars, that people WILL RESPECT US. And its also the equalizer because we have really good talent. We may not have 3 superstars, but we have great players. This is one of the most talented teams in Pacers history to be quite honest. It might be scewed a bit, because when you hold this team to the 3 superstar teams, they dont measure on paper, but on the court, they will because they're going to play harder, tougher and they wont bow down to the norm. Which is, Lebron and Co. being penciled in for the next few titles.
And one last thing. You can play smashmouth and be talented team and draft good and run an excellent organization. And i have a firm belief as a life long Pacer fan, that Frank Vogel is going to take this team to an NBA Finals and eventually a title. I think he's 2 steps ahead of everyone else. It's just tough for some of us on here to realize this, because all we see now is these Superstar-laden teams.
"Freedom is nothing else but a chance to be better." - Albert Camus
"Appreciation is a wonderful thing. It makes what is excellent in others belong to us as well." - Voltaire
Michael Pina, Red94: "There are so many different ways the Pacers can beat you. They have an All-Star scoring threat, imposing figures on the front line, steady point guard play, and most importantly, a defense that'll choke the life out of just about every offense that crosses its path."
Forget Smash Mouth, just be happy we're not playing Limp Bizkit basketball.
It's just another bowl of cheerios to **** in.
Targeting "physical" players gets you Tyler, and it's just as flawed as trying to get a bunch of similar guys (Isiah's Quick), or shooters, lengthy teams, all quick guys, etc. It's the idea of falling in love with one aspect of the game. And in the case of physical play it's not really in the top 5 of skills that contribute to winning, and worse yet it's one of the easiest for the refs to remove from the game via calling tight fouls.
Everyone loves the idea of a tough team, and certainly you need a level of toughness. But simply tough as an identity doesn't cut it in basketball. Given the choice I'd rather have a team of pure shooters, and to emphasize that look at West vs Tyler. Tyler is certainly more "physical", often out of control, but West has pure post scoring skills mixed with enough toughness to stand tall.
Smashmouth implies an idea of focus on physical play reminiscent of the mid-90s Cavs that aped the Knicks style of hard fouling, slow down defense. It won a tiny bit but mostly it resulted in poor, very ugly basketball.
Setting a firm screen isn't "smashmouth", it's fundamental basketball. Having 5 specialists that each play their position very well without being a superstar is fundamental basketball. That's the Pacers true identity and what many people have in mind when they think of items like clean, hard screens held to completion. Get to a spot in time, establish a good position, hold your base, and keep your arms down. That's not smashmouth, it's just the right way to execute that aspect of basketball.
And the biggest irony of all of this is that most fans think of Tyler as the most smashmouth player on the team and he's guilty of the absolute worst picks and screens on the team. His entire PnPop style is to NOT ENGAGE with the defender in order to better come clear for the FGA look, leaving the ball handler in a tough double team much of the time.
You do need to be tough, and given players of similar skills you would prefer the tougher of the two. But you also want the quickest. You also want the one who holds his focus the best and who can maintain crisp intensity and attention to the DETAILS of the game. Setting a good screen, running crisply off of those screens, keeping in range of your man to avoid being caught in a spacing trick, these are the details that win games. That's NOT smashmouth, and a lot of physical guys don't really do these things well and consistently anyway.
They just turn to hard fouls when they struggle rather than chucking up bad shots or overdribbling.